US dead last in health care

[punked]

Some Americans want to do just that...but they lost that political battle. Seems that collectivists don't fair as well in the USA as in Canada. The U.S. should never adopt Canada's single payer system, as it is one of the poorest performing and most expensive of such systems in the world. France has a much better public-private delivery system.

France doesn't have to pay their doctors to keep them from moving to the states. Fact is most of our health care costs are for health care professionals. In Frace doctors earn on average 55,000 dollars a year while in Canada they make 130,000-150,000 per year. Our healthcare system is hurting because you live next door. That is a fact if we didn't need to sink so much money into our system because of how poor your system is we would have money to spend else where. There is a reason Canadians hate your system. It makes both our system weaker.

[bush_cheney2004]

Threads about U.S. health care are seldom actually about discussion, but more of an opportunity for the 'they should do what we do, and if they don't they're all kinds of stupid/scared/heads up their asses/et al' ilk to mouth off. We don't want to do what you do. ...

Moreover, Americans are not telling Canada what they should or shouldn't do with health care, but apparently it is very important to some Canadians here what the U.S. should do. It is quite easy to just observe the behaviour of actual Canadians crossing the border for more expensive, faster solutions in the evil USA.

[Guest American Woman]

Our healthcare system is hurting because you live next door.

I was wondering how long Canada's problems would become "the U.S.'s fault."

[punked]

I was wondering how long Canada's problems would become "the U.S.'s fault."

They are though. You spending twice as much as Canadians drives up the costs for labour. That is simple economics. We have a vested interest in your broken system because to effects our broken system and prevents us from fixing it.

[Guest American Woman]

Moreover, Americans are not telling Canada what they should or shouldn't do with health care, but apparently it is very important to some Canadians here what the U.S. should do.

I honestly don't get it; it's obviously not out of great concern and love for Americans. I wonder if it's because if we did do it their way they would assume bragging rights - "they copied us!" and if we don't, but come up with something ranked better, it'll kill them.

It is quite easy to just observe the behaviour of actual Canadians crossing the border for more expensive, faster solutions in the evil USA.

But... but ... they wouldn't have any problems if we didn't live next door. Perhaps out of respect, we should move.

Edited January 13, 2013 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

...Again care is NOT RATIONED. It is however prioritized in my country by need instead of income.

No, health care is clearly rationed in Canada by any measure. Provinces lack the capacity so there isn't much choice, even with sending patients out of the country. The wait times for some routine procedures is quite significant.

[punked]

I honestly don't get it; it's obviously not out of great concern and love for Americans. I wonder if it's because if we did do it their way they would assume bragging rights - "they copied us!" and if we don't, but come up with something better, it'll kill them.

Nope again we have a vest interest. We compete with your for labour and labour costs. Your inefficient system drives up costs across the Americas. That's a fact.

But... but ... they wouldn't have any problems if we didn't live next door. Perhaps out of respect, we should move.

No we would have problems every country has problems they would just be different problems. Lets not pretend Frace is a model we can follow though when they can pay their healthcare professionals 1/3rd of what we pay them because they don't live next to the United States. Unless do you have a real point?

[bush_cheney2004]

They are though. You spending twice as much as Canadians drives up the costs for labour. That is simple economics. We have a vested interest in your broken system because to effects our broken system and prevents us from fixing it.

Then just close your border the way you did to "60,000" Americans back in the 1990's...LOL! Make Canadian doctors and other health care professionals stay in the collective for life with lower pay for the good of the commune.

[Guest American Woman]

France doesn't have to pay their doctors to keep them from moving to the states. Fact is most of our health care costs are for health care professionals. In Frace doctors earn on average 55,000 dollars a year while in Canada they make 130,000-150,000 per year.

Lets not pretend Frace is a model we can follow though when they can pay their healthcare professionals 1/3rd of what we pay them because they don't live next to the United States. Unless do you have a real point?

France doesn't pay their doctors all that much more than you do, and they pay more than several other European countries. France is just one step below Canada on the pay scale.

Edited January 13, 2013 by American Woman

[punked]

Then just close your border the way you did to "60,000" Americans back in the 1990's...LOL! Make Canadian doctors and other health care professionals stay in the collective for life with lower pay for the good of the commune.

Not a solution to what isn't a huge problem. Again we spend half as much as you do to get longer life expectancy and health care for all. You better believe if we wanted to double healthcares funding and be up there with your guys on spending our care would be much much better.....I mean it is already ranked higher then yours sooooo.....What's your point again? Oh that your system is worse?

[bush_cheney2004]

I honestly don't get it; it's obviously not out of great concern and love for Americans. I wonder if it's because if we did do it their way they would assume bragging rights - "they copied us!" and if we don't, but come up with something ranked better, it'll kill them.

I'm not quite sure what it is....some Canadians are just obesessed with what the U.S. does or doesn't do because America and Americans form the foundation for their not-American identity. They travel across the border to buy cheaper goods and services but are concerned that they will be hit with a big health care bill while snowbirding in Florida or Arizona.

[bush_cheney2004]

...What's your point again? Oh that your system is worse?

My point is that you have a political and collectivist mandate to provide universal, single payer care. The U.S. has such systems at well, but it also has a for-profit delivery system that is much more responsive than in Canada. So much so, Canadians seek it out even after paying the collectivist taxes for "free" health care in Canada.

[Pliny]

Nope. The US pays around 17% or 8000 per person for their healthcare. Canada is closer to 12% or 4500 dollars per person. Those numbers don't add up. No wonder Conservatives hate Canadian healthcare they have no idea how much it costs.

Nope. The US pays around 17% or 8000 per person for their healthcare. Canada is closer to 12% or 4500 dollars per person. Those numbers don't add up. No wonder Conservatives hate Canadian healthcare they have no idea how much it costs.

You'll have to provide a link to those claims.

Average price of health insurance in the USA

A survey carried out by eHealthInsurance in 2010 found that (among its customers):

"Individual policy holders paid an average of $167 a month in premiums with an average deductible of $2,632; family plans averaged $392 with a $3,531 deductible."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/health-insurance/find-private-health-insurance.php#.UPMcKidEGSo

Also:

The 10 percent of Canadian families with the lowest incomes will pay an average of about $487 for public health care insurance in 2012. The 10 percent of Canadian families who earn an average income of $55,271 will pay an average of $5,285 for public health care insurance, and the families among the top 10 percent of income earners in Canada will pay $32,628.

That's from the Fraser Institute In this study http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/price-of-public-healthcare-insurance-2012.pdf

The cost to a 2 parent 2 children family with an income of $113,226 will pay for healthcare through their taxes $11,401 out of a total tax bill of $46,990.

[Canuckistani]

I have a question that maybe you can help me understand: I see stats for the portion of Canada's GDP that goes towards healthcare, but the care is provincial - and varies from province to province - with some services not even available in all provinces, thus there's sometimes a need for private health insurance when traveling within Canada. Also, when moving from province to province, some provinces require a wait time, during which time private insurance must be purchased. And don't some provinces charge a monthly premium?

So since the service is provincial, how can there even be statistics for the GDP, since that would be federal? Provincial taxes go towards health care, do they not? With just a supplement from the federal?

-------------------------------------

As a side note, I keep reading that all Canadians have access to the same health care, but that can't be true since it varies from province to province, and they only share certain common features and standards.

Wow. Really? The OECD takes the total expenditures on healthcare in a country and compares that as a percent of GDP. Who cares who's spending the money. In the US, about 47% of healthcare is government funded, in Canad it's about 70%, but no matter who funds it, it all comes out of the same pocket.

All Canadians do have access to healthcare. Provinces differ in funding a few procedures, but it's only a few, marginal ones. You can go see your GP in any province, you can get cancer treatment in any province, etc. And no pre-existing condition denial of coverage. Provinces don't share certain common features and standards, they share the vast majority of them. Compare that to variation of coverage you get in the US of HMO vs PPO coverage. Canadians can see any doctor they choose, go to any hospital as required, unlike HMO coverage.

You con't need medical insurance to travel within Canada, since your provincial coverage will cover in other provinces, just as your provincial coverage will cover when travelling in other countries. The reason people need insurance when travelling to the states is because the procedures cost so much more there vs Canada, and our health insurance only pays what would be paid in our province. When I got sick in New Zealand, my MSP paid for the full cost, I didn't get any benefit from the private insurance I had bought which only kicks in for excess over MSP coverage.

Most provinces charge a montly premium. In BC, a family of 3 or more pays $133. month. Compare that to co-pays for coverage in the US if your employer happens to provide insurance, and compare that there are no co-pays for treatment.

[Canuckistani]

You'll have to provide a link to those claims.

Average price of health insurance in the USA

A survey carried out by eHealthInsurance in 2010 found that (among its customers):

"Individual policy holders paid an average of $167 a month in premiums with an average deductible of $2,632; family plans averaged $392 with a $3,531 deductible."

http://www.medicalne...hp#.UPMcKidEGSo

Also:

The 10 percent of Canadian families with the lowest incomes will pay an average of about $487 for public health care insurance in 2012. The 10 percent of Canadian families who earn an average income of $55,271 will pay an average of $5,285 for public health care insurance, and the families among the top 10 percent of income earners in Canada will pay $32,628.

That's from the Fraser Institute In this study http://www.fraserins...urance-2012.pdf

The cost to a 2 parent 2 children family with an income of $113,226 will pay for healthcare through their taxes $11,401 out of a total tax bill of $46,990.

I did just that, but you don't want to see it, I guess:

Think again.

Health care costs in Canada 11.4% of GDP, Healthcare costs in the US 17.6% of GDP. http://www.oecd.org/...eCANADA2012.pdf

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ing-canada.html

The U.S. spent almost twice as much as Canada, $7,290 US per capita, versus $3,895 US per capita in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ing-canada.html

From wiki:

Quote

Kaiser’s 2009 survey found that employer health insurance premiums were $13,375 for a family and $4824 for a single person...

About 60% of workers were receiving employer sponsored health insurance. Less than half (46%) of employees at small firms with 3 to 9 workers received coverage. As of 2008, the percentage of Americans receiving employer sponsored health insurance had declined for the eighth consecutive year, says the Kaiser Family Foundation.^[4]

From 1999 to 2009, Kaiser found that the insurance premiums had climbed 131% or 13.1% per year, and workers’ contribution toward paying that premium jumped 128% or 12.8% per year. In 1999, workers’ average contribution to the premium was $1543, and in 2009 it was $3515. For employers, their contribution was $4247 in 1999 and $9860 in 2009. ^[5]

The lower a families’ income is, the less likely that they can purchase health insurance, according to 2008 US Census figures. About 14.5% of households with $50,000 to $75000 in income did not have health insurance. While 24.5% of households with $25,000 or less income went without health insurance.

How much would wages be able to rise if employers did not have to pay those healthcare costs? Some US employer's tried to sue Canada under NAFTA claiming our healthcare system was an unfair subsidy.

And that doesn't take into account how much people in the US have to co-pay for insurance and treatment - many are forced into bankruptcy because of it. Also not considered are the number of people denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition. That doesn't happen in Canada.

http://www.healthref...rage/index.html

Edited January 13, 2013 by Canuckistani

[Pliny]

I have a question that maybe you can help me understand: I see stats for the portion of Canada's GDP that goes towards healthcare, but the care is provincial - and varies from province to province - with some services not even available in all provinces, thus there's sometimes a need for private health insurance when traveling within Canada. Also, when moving from province to province, some provinces require a wait time, during which time private insurance must be purchased. And don't some provinces charge a monthly premium?

The health care in Canada is primarily paid for out of federal taxes and the provinces then receive transfer payments for health care. Some Provinces have a surcharge called a Medical Services Premium (MSP). The services do vary form province to province. If you live in Quebec you do need private insurance when traveling outside of Quebec because Quebec has no agreement with other provinces to pay out of province medical expenses. All the other provinces cover each other, I believe. If you are moving to a different province your original province will cover you for two or three months until your new province starts covering you.

So since the service is provincial, how can there even be statistics for the GDP, since that would be federal? Provincial taxes go towards health care, do they not? With just a supplement from the federal?

Federal transfer payments pay for most of health care with supplements from provinces in the form of MSP, as mentioned above.

-------------------------------------

As a side note, I keep reading that all Canadians have access to the same health care, but that can't be true since it varies from province to province, and they only share certain common features and standards.

They do have parameters set by the federal government so there is not really too much difference between provinces but yes there are differences. Quebec would probably have the most differences from other provinces.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Pliny

[Canuckistani]

Federal transfer payments pay for most of health care with supplements from provinces in the form of MSP, as mentioned above.

Federal payments = 25% of healthcare costs. Healthcare is the province's biggest budget expenditure, not nearly covered by healthcare premiums.

-------------------------------------

Edited January 13, 2013 by Canuckistani

[Pliny]

Several people have already corrected you misconception regarding the cost of healthcare, but it bears pointing out that we also don't pay anywhere near as much in taxes anymore as is generally thought. Taxes have come down a lot in Canada in the last few years. The average Canadian's total tax load is within a percentage point of the average American's. Then they have to pay health insurance ON TOP of that.

There is a misconception of cost to the individual. We may be paying less with respect to GDP but the individual cost in Canada is averaged out with top income earners paying very heavily and low income earners paying very little. The average is a higher amount to the Canadian individual. Americans do pay publicly out of their taxes for insurance, collectively almost as much as Canadians which makes it ten times less individually but that is not an insignificant amount, they have medicare, medicaid and SCHIP all paid for through their taxes. What they choose to pay for privately, through insurance or on an elective basis is their choice. Many Canadians choose to pay for supplemental insurance as well.

You'll notice that no private costs are included in Canada's total ratio to GDP although there is not an insignificant number of Canadians buying private medical services in the US. I have two brothers in law that have spent about $80,000. What percentage of that and other foreign countries adds to the US GDP ratio?

[waldo]

I'm not quite sure what it is....some Canadians are just obesessed with what the U.S. does or doesn't do because America and Americans form the foundation for their not-American identity.

how is discussing the American, 'shorter lives, poorer health', disadvantage an, as you say, obsession? Uhhh... isn't this thread within a U.S. related forum? As i said, it's too bad you've been on a deflecting mission rather than actually addressing the OP report.

apparently... the deflecting deflectors within this thread are loath to actually read the report. You know... the report/study from the U.S. National Research Council and the U.S. Institute of Medicine... the report/study sponsored by the U.S. National Institutes of Health and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The report/study that compared the U.S. to 16 peer nations -- affluent democracies that include Australia, Canada, Japan, and many western European countries.

The report/study that concludes there is a comparable U.S. health disadvantage relative to these other world's rich nations. The report/study that shows that the unfavourable U.S. health comparison exists across all ages of the U.S. citizenry - from birth to age 75. The report/study that finds the conclusion also applies to advantaged Americans; those with health insurance, college educations, higher incomes, and healthy behaviors -- that these advantaged Americans appear to be sicker than their peers in other rich nations. The report/study that concludes that the U.S. is at or near the bottom in nine key areas of health: infant mortality and low birth weight; obesity and diabetes; heart disease; chronic lung disease; disability; injuries and homicides; teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections; prevalence of HIV and AIDS and drug-related deaths.

Apparently, the deflecting deflectors within this thread don't recognize evaluating/measuring/comparing health compromises many avenues... health care, disease, injury, behaviour, underlying social values and economic conditions, public policies, physical environments, etc. Go figure!

but hey now... you don't seem to do so bad... so long as you hit 80 years old or so!

[Pliny]

Federal payments = 25% of healthcare costs. Healthcare is the province's biggest budget expenditure, not nearly covered by healthcare premiums.

-------------------------------------

Federal payments = 25% of healthcare costs. Healthcare is the province's biggest budget expenditure, not nearly covered by healthcare premiums.

-------------------------------------

I stand corrected on this point. A provinces healthcare expenditures are not totally from Federal transfer payments with supplements from MSP. The provinces pay a large portion of their tax collection to health care supplemented by federal transfer payments.

[punked]

Federal payments = 25% of healthcare costs. Healthcare is the province's biggest budget expenditure, not nearly covered by healthcare premiums.

-------------------------------------

I wish 25%. Try 16% under Paul Martin it was around 13%.

[punked]

I stand corrected on this point. A provinces healthcare expenditures are not totally from Federal transfer payments with supplements from MSP. The provinces pay a large portion of their tax collection to health care supplemented by federal transfer payments.

Which you can only get if your quality of care is that of the other provinces.

[Canuckistani]

There is a misconception of cost to the individual. We may be paying less with respect to GDP but the individual cost in Canada is averaged out with top income earners paying very heavily and low income earners paying very little. The average is a higher amount to the Canadian individual. Americans do pay publicly out of their taxes for insurance, collectively almost as much as Canadians which makes it ten times less individually but that is not an insignificant amount, they have medicare, medicaid and SCHIP all paid for through their taxes. What they choose to pay for privately, through insurance or on an elective basis is their choice. Many Canadians choose to pay for supplemental insurance as well.

Load of crap. Per capita health care costs are almost double in the US vs Canada.

You'll notice that no private costs are included in Canada's total ratio to GDP although there is not an insignificant number of Canadians buying private medical services in the US. I have two brothers in law that have spent about $80,000. What percentage of that and other foreign countries adds to the US GDP ratio?

Total crap. Canadians pay about 30% of total healthcare costs not thru the medicare system, whereas Americans pay about 53% privately.. But the cost per GDP or cost per capitat calculations are based on total healthcare expenditures. Where do you get this bs from?

[bush_cheney2004]

Mission accomplished...now they can't even agree about provincial health care costs and spending, let alone trying to worry about the health care costs in a foreign country.

[punked]

Mission accomplished...now they can't even agree about provincial health care costs and spending, let alone trying to worry about the health care costs in a foreign country.

Nope we all agree Pliny has been making stuff up as he goes along.