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US dead last in health care


Canuckistani

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I wonder how many sq Km's Switzerland is. Probably huge like Canada. Oh? only 41,285 sq k ?

Thats probably bigger than....oh wait, a lot smaller than Manitoba. (649,000 sq K)

Hey maybe pop density will work better....Switz - 196 vs CDN - 3.75 Guess not.

Maybe that explains a few things?

Funny that you mentioned Manitoba, since it has one of the most centralized populations in Canada. The vast majority live in a handful of urban areas. More than half live in The Peg alone.

Canada may be a large land mass, but we inhabit only a tiny fraction of it. As rural people already know, we don't really supply them with government services very well.

Edited by Mighty AC
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Single payer is a much more efficient system. We could allow private hospitals, we could look at what else the Europeans do better than us. But we have unique challenges compared to them.

Just to be clear, we do have private hospitals (not for profit). I serve on the board of one.

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Funny that you mentioned Manitoba, since it has one of the most centralized populations in Canada. The vast majority live in a handful of urban areas. More than half live in The Peg alone.

And if Winnipeg was the whole province, that would mean something. There is still 2/5 of the population to serve everywhere else. Logistics costs are massive.

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Just to be clear, we do have private hospitals (not for profit). I serve on the board of one.

I meant for profit. I have no problem with for profit delivery of health services, our doctors already are, as are the labs we use and who knows what else. But IMO we should keep the single payer system. It seems to be much more efficient. And of course we should keep universal healthcare.

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Switzerland is 26% rural. Canada as a whole is about 20% rural, with Manitoba being 28%. Three quarters of Manitobans live in 5 towns. I don't think logistics is what's killing us.

Come on you are living in a fantasy world if you think you can compare Switzerland a country sandwiched between France, Italy, Germany, and Austria to Canada. There is no place in Switzerland were there isn't a road know why? Because it is the Hub for the largest countries in the EU. You know Canada who is sandwiched between America and Santa Claus. We don't have roads in the North because there is no need but you better believe it costs more to fly in and out a pregnant women because that is what you have to do in a town of 400 people. Look a map and think about what you are saying.

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Did a quick google of swiss health care. It does sound good. The question is how well it would work in Canada. The problem is that if we get it wrong, open up Canada to private insurers, then under NAFTA we'd be stuck with it. And the push from the US insurers would be huge to replicate the mess in the US, because the profits for them are huge. Add to that the Harper administration, that would love nothing less than turning our healthcare system into a free market one a la US, and I'm very leery about opening up our system that way. Put the NDP in power, and I'd be quite willing to have the discussion.

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Did a quick google of swiss health care. It does sound good. The question is how well it would work in Canada. The problem is that if we get it wrong, open up Canada to private insurers, then under NAFTA we'd be stuck with it. And the push from the US insurers would be huge to replicate the mess in the US, because the profits for them are huge. Add to that the Harper administration, that would love nothing less than turning our healthcare system into a free market one a la US, and I'm very leery about opening up our system that way. Put the NDP in power, and I'd be quite willing to have the discussion.

No the problem is in order to bring our costs down we have to pull people out of rural areas. You can't compare Canada to any other country with out thinking of transportation costs because that is our country.

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No the problem is in order to bring our costs down we have to pull people out of rural areas. You can't compare Canada to any other country with out thinking of transportation costs because that is our country.

Our system can definitely be improved. And it's not just our rural people who have to deal with wait times.

But if we adopted the Swiss system holus bolus, I doubt we would see the same success as they've had. We need a made in Canada solution. And we may have to accept that we have a more expensive system because of geography in part. And because we have much more poverty than Switzerland does - poverty breeds ill health and costs us all money.

Edited by Canuckistani
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Our system can definitely be improved. And it's not just our rural people who have to deal with wait times.

But if we adopted the Swiss system holus bolus, I doubt we would see the same success as they've had. We need a made in Canada solution. And we may have to accept that we have a more expensive system because of geography in part. And because we have much more poverty than Switzerland does - poverty breeds ill health and costs us all money.

I agree our system can be improved but lets not act like we don't pay huge amounts of money to our doctors because we have to compete in price with America and that our system isn't hamped by the fact our country is huge and has a small population. Like it or not Health is going to cost more to deliver and it will cost more because we are next to a nation that is going to bid up our prices.

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I agree our system can be improved but lets not act like we don't pay huge amounts of money to our doctors because we have to compete in price with America and that our system isn't hamped by the fact our country is huge and has a small population. Like it or not Health is going to cost more to deliver and it will cost more because we are next to a nation that is going to bid up our prices.

You make good points. I would like to see our doctors put on salary, have our med schools charge doctors the true cost of training them, which is reduced the longer they stay in our system, with incentives to move north. I'd like to see us use way more nurse practitioners, and spend way more on prevention, which down the road pays for itself and then some.

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You make good points. I would like to see our doctors put on salary, have our med schools charge doctors the true cost of training them, which is reduced the longer they stay in our system, with incentives to move north. I'd like to see us use way more nurse practitioners, and spend way more on prevention, which down the road pays for itself and then some.

Nova Scotia is doing some Amazing things with Healthcare. They are running clinics at night in rural communities to keep their hospitable open but just have a nurse there at night with a doctor on Call. This has made it so a number of rural communities that before could not find doctors now have them because it is now a 9-5 job unless there is an emergency it is also costing them much less to do it this way. It is pretty impressive what they are doing in that small provinces while slowing the growth of health-care costs to 2% each year their NDP government has been in power. They are offering more services but it costs less because they are thinking outside the box.

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We don't have roads in the North because there is no need but you better believe it costs more to fly in and out a pregnant women because that is what you have to do in a town of 400 people.
I'd like to see a break down of system costs, because I doubt logistics is what is holding us back. I suspect the fact that they have fewer poor, better diets, more holidays, etc. would play a larger role in preventing healthcare costs than transportation.

Anyway, under the Swiss system who would cover plane flights and transportation costs? I suspect it would be one of the 90 or so private, non-profit insurers. Would people living in remote locations pay more for insurance? I suspect they would and I think they should. Wouldn't that mostly eliminate the logistics funding nightmare for the state?

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Anyway, under the Swiss system who would cover plane flights and transportation costs? I suspect it would be one of the 90 or so private, non-profit insurers. Would people living in remote locations pay more for insurance? I suspect they would and I think they should. Wouldn't that mostly eliminate the logistics funding nightmare for the state?

No they wouldn't. The Swiss have legislated premium equality - young pay same as old. Ie young subsidize the old. They don't really have remote locations - everything is connected by roads and larger centers are close by. Transportation costs would be nothing like in Canada.

Edited by Canuckistani
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I'd like to see a break down of system costs, because I doubt logistics is what is holding us back. I suspect the fact that they have fewer poor, better diets, more holidays, etc. would play a larger role in preventing healthcare costs than transportation.

There is some legitimacy to the above re the diet , fewer poor, but the logistics one is likley a non starter.

Anyway, under the Swiss system who would cover plane flights and transportation costs?

Honestly the best way to look at this is a map of the two countries..

Fly someone out of Inuvik Nunavut for an emergency and you wind up in Yellowknife or Winnipeg. One way to Y'knife is 1100km.

The farthest point to point in Switzerland is approx 360Km

Now use that info to get an idea the costs of moving anything at all around this country .

Look at the thread for Attawapiskat. So they bought a Zamboni for $100,000. Ok fine.

Cost them another $30,000 to get it there.

Zamboni = MRI machine =diagnostic machinery=5 hospital beds.

Capice?

Edited by guyser
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I'd like to see a break down of system costs, because I doubt logistics is what is holding us back. I suspect the fact that they have fewer poor, better diets, more holidays, etc. would play a larger role in preventing healthcare costs than transportation.

Anyway, under the Swiss system who would cover plane flights and transportation costs? I suspect it would be one of the 90 or so private, non-profit insurers. Would people living in remote locations pay more for insurance? I suspect they would and I think they should. Wouldn't that mostly eliminate the logistics funding nightmare for the state?

That is not the way the Swiss system works. BTW in Canada we pay people to go North so you better believe the public would subsidize their insurance as well. Come on seriously think about it.

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Socialists are conservative? Who'd a thunk it.

It has been said that there is no greater a conservative establishment than a liberal one. If you would prefer the term Statist it covers both extremes of left-wing and right-wing socialism.

I come from neither a left nor right perspective in terms of things like health care. I like what works, what works efficiently and effectively.

On a scale of that (efficiency and effectiveness) it's hard to come up with a worse system in the world than the American system. You can say, well, health care is better in America than in, say, Botswana, but if Botswana poured as much money into their system as the Americans did, well, it'd surely do better than the one south of us. On the scale of efficiency and effectiveness, then, the US system is probably dead last in the world.

You don't say you like the Canadian system. Do you feel it is efficient and effective? The American system does have its problems but they are different than ours. It depends on individual priorities whether or not it can be considered worse.

I agree healthcare should be approached from an apolitical position but politicians like to control these things and socialized medicine wins votes but less so in the US. They've been trying to keep it out of politics there but the pressure is on to make it political.

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You don't say you like the Canadian system. Do you feel it is efficient and effective?

Not as efficient or effective as it should be. It seems to be better than the one down south, however.

The American system does have its problems but they are different than ours. It depends on individual priorities whether or not it can be considered worse.

Not it doesn't. Better or worse is not an opinion which can be ascribed to personal judgement. The American system costs much more than anyone elses. Therefore, in order to be of equal efficiency and effectiveness with other systems, it must produce much better results. Yet it doesn't. Every comparison I've ever seen says their results are not as good as systems which cost much less money,

It's like Joe and Fred both go to different dealers and lease the same model car, the exact same car with the exact same conditions. But Joe pays 30% more than Fred. Can any reasonable person suggest that Joe should be content? So they go back next year, and again, Joe pays 30% more, and they do this year after year. Why would Joe be so stupid as to not even check out the other dealer and see if he can get the same deal as Fred?

Actually, it's not like that, because in most assessments the expensive American system isn't the of the same quality as others, it's worse.

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I wonder how many sq Km's Switzerland is. Probably huge like Canada. Oh? only 41,285 sq k ?

Thats probably bigger than....oh wait, a lot smaller than Manitoba. (649,000 sq K)

Hey maybe pop density will work better....Switz - 196 vs CDN - 3.75 Guess not.

Maybe that explains a few things?

Maybe it doesn't. I have never seen population density used as a criteria for health care cost studies. Perhaps that's because those who study health care costs don't consider it to be of any substantive effect. I've certainly never seen it used as an excuse by any of our politicians, and I'd expect it to be if they thought it could fly. I don't see how a hospital plunked down in rural Alberta has any higher costs than one in downtown Toronto. If anything, given land costs it's a lot cheaper.

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