"We're all immigrants here!"

[betsy]

That is the popular throw-back by the politically correct - a mindset now learned and adapted by some immigrants - whenever there's an issue about immigrants and immigration. "We're all immigrants here," counters and abruptly diminishes any "entitlements" by the first settlers - and their descendants - to this land.

I know that the statement has something to do with equality, HOWEVER....that is not usually the case anymore.

I'm bringing this up because of the video I've seen from another topic which really grabbed me. Three instances that I know of from google - all in trams - by different women.

http://www.ibtimes.c...-experience.htm

What person in his right mind - even if he is indeed a true racist - would rant like this in the midst of the people he's raving at, in a confined space, and all alone?

These are signs.

Go ahead and google about racism in public places. Australia has them too. I think multiculturalism is really doing more harm than good.

Multiculturalism wants to help immigrants preserve their own identities....yet we're forgetting that by doing so, we are effectively obliterating the identities of those that came before us.

Yes we're all immigrants here....but I wonder how many of us would've migrated to Canada if it's still the cold and barren land that it was before the first settlers arrived?

Edited December 30, 2012 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

Multiculturalism wants to help immigrants preserve their own identities....yet we're forgetting that by doing so, we are effectively obliterating the identities of those that came before us.

We've covered this already in umpteen posts. What do you have that's new to add to the debate ?

Why do you want to control the idea of 'identity' and how do you even know if it's changing ?

Yes we're all immigrants here....but I wonder how many of us would've migrated to Canada if it's still the cold and barren land that it was before the first settlers arrived?

Huh ? What was our identity before the first settlers arrived ? There's nothing that says the identity of any country can't change - trying to prevent change from happening is like trying to prevent the wind from happening. The last great modern state founded was America - and they're founded on ideas - not some identity of someone's race, religion or what have you. Their take on immigration is very similar to ours - and both countries seem to be doing quite well.

[Merlin]

It's this woman's own fault for continuing to live in an area that the new non European immigrants have taken over. if she doesn't feel comfortable living around new immigrants she's free to move. That's the glory of our western countries, people can move around freely. Most of these new immigrants are very clan orientated so they will only live around work and family and those things happen to be concentrated in the cities.

I live around many Muslims and they scare me a lot. I am also disabled so I am doubly worried that I will become a victim. I am also very poor and on odsp so I cannot afford to leave here. But those who can afford to flee the cities make the white flight to the suburbs.

The city of Toronto is 60% minorities and 40% white now and continuing to drop. It still feels fairly safe to me mind you and many new Canadians hold doors for me and such so I am coming to terms with the new Canada. I guess the old Canada wasn't good enough for everyone.

Many urban centres in Canada are seeing the same type of flux. In a few decades the urban centres could be 80% non whites and only 20% whites with the majority of the white population in out lying areas. I find it interesting how tribal humans continue to be. We don't talk about it....ever....but it seems that human nature is to live near those who look similar to ones self.

[betsy]

We've covered this already in umpteen posts. What do you have that's new to add to the debate ?

How do you define, "something new?" Do we have to add "something new" even if the same old sufficiently addresses the new problematic issues that crop up?

If we talk of nazism and tyranny....of course, Hitler is bound to come up. If we talk of politics, bringing up corruption, broken promises, partisanships aren't that far behind.

Here's what I've said in another topic:

Years back we've debated about multiculturalism and political correctness. Some of us had said then that it will only lead to chaos, and the pendulum will end up swinging to the far right! Take a look in Europe - the Supremacists are out in the open, and they seem to be getting more members.

http://www.mapleleaf...=30#entry869928

So, the same old analysis some of us had stated years ago are proving to be coming true. We'd be running out of topics to discuss if we couldn't revisit issues that are still relevant, or became relevant again, Michael.

Why do you want to control the idea of 'identity'

That sounds too terrible when you put it that way.

and how do you even know if it's changing ?

Look around you. Read commentaries. Follow the news.

Huh ? What was our identity before the first settlers arrived ?

The identity of who specifically? That's like asking, "what existed before it existed?"

There's nothing that says the identity of any country can't change - trying to prevent change from happening is like trying to prevent the wind from happening.

Typhoon's coming....do you keep your windows wide open, or you close them? What happens with your stuffs if you don't keep that wind out?

The last great modern state founded was America - and they're founded on ideas -

Ideas based on the values and the culture of the founders!

not some identity of someone's race, religion or what have you.

Yes, religion! And culture!

Their take on immigration is very similar to ours - and both countries seem to be doing quite well.

That great modern nation may be becoming similar to us now....but for the longest time, their concept was the "melting pot." And that's what made it so great, imho.

Edited December 30, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

It's this woman's own fault for continuing to live in an area that the new non European immigrants have taken over. if she doesn't feel comfortable living around new immigrants she's free to move. That's the glory of our western countries, people can move around freely. Most of these new immigrants are very clan orientated so they will only live around work and family and those things happen to be concentrated in the cities.

I live around many Muslims and they scare me a lot. I am also disabled so I am doubly worried that I will become a victim. I am also very poor and on odsp so I cannot afford to leave here. But those who can afford to flee the cities make the white flight to the suburbs.

The city of Toronto is 60% minorities and 40% white now and continuing to drop. It still feels fairly safe to me mind you and many new Canadians hold doors for me and such so I am coming to terms with the new Canada. I guess the old Canada wasn't good enough for everyone.

Many urban centres in Canada are seeing the same type of flux. In a few decades the urban centres could be 80% non whites and only 20% whites with the majority of the white population in out lying areas. I find it interesting how tribal humans continue to be. We don't talk about it....ever....but it seems that human nature is to live near those who look similar to ones self.

Immigrants shouldn't be encouraged to segregate themselves. We have to promote assimilation - and I think the current government is trying to tread delicately in that direction. Which is a positive step in the right direction.

[WWWTT]

Most of these new immigrants are very clan orientated so they will only live around work and family and those things happen to be concentrated in the cities.

I live around many Muslims and they scare me a lot. I am also disabled so I am doubly worried that I will become a victim. I am also very poor and on odsp so I cannot afford to leave here. But those who can afford to flee the cities make the white flight to the suburbs.

So you have one set of rules for immigrants and another set for yourself.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Immigrants shouldn't be encouraged to segregate themselves. We have to promote assimilation - and I think the current government is trying to tread delicately in that direction. Which is a positive step in the right direction.

So in other words we should encourage immigrants to give up their culture?!?!

This goes against the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms so therefore is un Canadian!

WWWTT

[Merlin]

So in other words we should encourage immigrants to give up their culture?!?!

This goes against the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms so therefore is un Canadian!

WWWTT

Immigrants assimilating is giving up their culture? Are the Jews giving up their culture? What about British Canadians? Is their culture being given up? No, it isn't.

Who's culture is it to shun outsiders and not become part of the social fabric of your adopted country?

[Michael Hardner]

That sounds too terrible when you put it that way.

Well, that's what you want to do isn't it ? You want to maintain some kind of identity that excludes certain types ?

Look around you. Read commentaries. Follow the news.

Qualitative evaluation, then. Ok - well although I do perceive change, I think it's for the better.

The identity of who specifically? That's like asking, "what existed before it existed?"

Right - which is why it's ridiculous that you brought it up.

That great modern nation may be becoming similar to us now....but for the longest time, their concept was the "melting pot." And that's what made it so great, imho.

Melting pot and multiculturalism aren't that different - they're similar in that they are approaches to assimilating large numbers of immigrants to a country based on ideas - no matter where the ideas come from.

[betsy]

So in other words we should encourage immigrants to give up their culture?!?!

This goes against the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms so therefore is un Canadian!

WWWTT

Who says anything about giving up their culture???

We live in a democratic country. Nothing is preventing them from eating their food or celebrating their culture!

But we do want to promote assimilation! For them to embrace this new country that they've migrated to.

A lot of immigrants - and that includes me - chose Canada specifically because of the way of life....the freedom and democracy....for the Western values!

A lot of immigrants from oppressive regimes came to Canada expecting to have the same freedom and rights like everyone else, only to wake up to the reality that they are still facing the same kind of oppression they've faced back home...because the culture from back home can still be enforced here in Canada.

Do I have to remind everyone that Muslims almost got Sharia Law in Ontario - thanks to McGuinty who was considering it - if not for the protests of some Muslims and some women's groups! So don't give me that baloney. You can't please everyone, Michael. You've got to stand on something.

And of course, needless to say....they have to remember and respect what this country stands for, its values and its own culture...respect and acceptance works two-ways.

Look at England! Do you want our cities to be divided into sections, ruled by various cultures? As if we don't have enough big problems from gang wars!

Edited December 30, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Well, that's what you want to do isn't it ? You want to maintain some kind of identity that excludes certain types ?

If you want me to be blunt about it...yes! I'm tired of having to suppress what I think just so I don't offend anyone!

Are you in favor of Sharia Law? Forced marriages? Brides be burned alive if thay can't give dowries?

You find it acceptable to have that father drown his three daughters in the lake (with the help of his son and his wife) because his daughters were becoming "westernized?" You don't see anything wrong with that?

You don't find it offensive that this bloke chose to come to Canada and partake of what Canada can offer....then kill his daughters for embracing our culture?

Even if he didn't kill them...I find that not only insulting....but very HIGHLY OFFENSIVE! What's he doing here if he finds us so repulsive?

Wouldn't you throw out the rotten apples that could ruin all the others in your basket?

Edited December 30, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Right - which is why it's ridiculous that you brought it up.

No. You explain it to me.

Melting pot and multiculturalism aren't that different - they're similar in that they are approaches to assimilating large numbers of immigrants to a country based on ideas - no matter where the ideas come from.

That sounds like a relativist speaking.

[Michael Hardner]

If you want me to be blunt about it...yes! I'm tired of having to suppress what I think just so I don't offend anyone!

Well, that's your choice. If you want to offend people - go ahead. Do you like being offended ?

Are you in favor of Sharia Law? Forced marriages? Brides be burned alive if thay can't give dowries?

You find it acceptable to have that father drown his three daughters in the lake (with the help of his son and his wife) because his daughters were becoming "westernized?" You don't see anything wrong with that?

You don't find it offensive that this bloke chose to come to Canada and partake of what Canada can offer....then kill his daughters for embracing our culture?

Even if he didn't kill them...I find that not only insulting....but very HIGHLY OFFENSIVE! What's he doing here if he finds us so repulsive?

Jeez, what do you think ? Talk about a strawman.

Wouldn't you throw out the rotten apples that could ruin all the others in your basket?

Why are you being so indirect ? I thought that you were sick of being circumspect - why not come right out and directly say what you're saying with this analogy.

[betsy]

Well, that's your choice. If you want to offend people - go ahead. Do you like being offended ?

I don't want to offend people....but the way you posed your statement implies that I do.....by singling out "certain types."

Mhardner

Well, that's what you want to do isn't it ? You want to maintain some kind of identity that excludes certain types ?

The connotation attached when you invoked, "certain types" implies that I am singling out a particular group in general, let's say Muslims. Yet you seem to ignore the fact that my sentiment also fights for the Muslims who fled to this country, genuinely hoping for the kind of freedom they could only dream of in their native land.

MHardner

Jeez, what do you think ? Talk about a strawman.

That's not a strawman. That's reality that's being ignored. That was in the news....and it's not the only one that happened. How many women from different cultures were murdered because they were becoming westernized? There was a woman who was murdered in India - that was featured in W5 (?) - and it was a contract killing made by her parents from BC.

What is wrong about becoming westernized? We are in a western society!

Why are you being so indirect ? I thought that you were sick of being circumspect - why not come right out and directly say what you're saying with this analogy.

The analogy is exactly what it is. You're being obtuse....because you don't want to face and answer it?

When I brought this topic up, your automatic reaction is to make me seem like I am somehow being racist for even bringing it up. You see....this kind of "political correctness" that muzzles views or ideas that are no longer considered "acceptable" could be one of the very reasons why we see these very disturbing spewing of anger as seen in the videos.

Like I said, the women in the videos were lashing out at the wrong people. They should be lashing out at their politicians or their government!

Who is the one truly controlling? Is it the one who wants to express her opinion though painful or unpleasant it may be....or is it the one who tries to muzzle/intimidate anyone from expressing opinions they don't want to hear?

Edited December 31, 2012 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

I don't want to offend people....but the way you posed your statement implies that I do.....by singling out "certain types."

You said this: "I'm tired of having to suppress what I think just so I don't offend anyone!"

You can carry on with the tiring business of not offending people, or you can offend. Your choice. A true gift comes from the heart, so I don't recommend suppressing your anger if you feel it in your heart - not healthy.

The connotation attached when you invoked, "certain types" implies that I am singling out a particular group in general, let's say Muslims. Yet you seem to ignore the fact that my sentiment also fights for the Muslims who fled to this country, genuinely hoping for the kind of freedom they could only dream of in their native land.

That's not a strawman. That's reality that's being ignored. That was in the news....and it's not the only one that happened. How many women from different cultures were murdered because they were becoming westernized? There was a woman who was murdered in India - that was featured in W5 (?) - and it was a contract killing made by her parents from BC.

What is wrong about becoming westernized? We are in a western society!

Well - why are you pussy footing around it ? Be clear & specific - what are you proposing ?

So far, it sounds like another post complaining about people not assimilating to a standard of behavior. Well, we have laws that are enforced - do you have anything

The analogy is exactly what it is. You're being obtuse....because you don't want to face and answer it?

If you care to pose me a question, I will be glad to answer it.

When I brought this topic up, your automatic reaction is to make me seem like I am somehow being racist for even bringing it up. You see....this kind of "political correctness" that muzzles views or ideas that are no longer considered "acceptable" could be one of the very reasons why we see these very disturbing spewing of anger as seen in the videos.

All I'm doing is asking questions. If you want to suggest something at least have the courage to spell it out rather than force us to ask questions.

Blaming political correctness for the behavior of that anti-immigrant person in the video is ridiculous.

or is it the one who tries to muzzle/intimidate anyone from expressing opinions they don't want to hear?

The woman in the video is not an immigrant, so your point is murky to me. Clearly she has her emotional level in overdrive and her brain in neutral. I don't have to address issues brought forward by a screaming idiot, nor do I have to give any weight to her views. At a certain point, though, if there are many like her then they have to be dealt with - but they will not be dealt with as thinking adults but as the masses.

[cybercoma]

Qualitative evaluation, then. Ok - well although I do perceive change, I think it's for the better.

Her opinions are lacking the rigour, reliability, and validity of a proper qualitative analysis. Please don't insult qualitative researchers by likening what betsy said to their work.

[cybercoma]

Who says anything about giving up their culture???

You did.

We have to promote assimilation

[cybercoma]

You find it acceptable to have that father drown his three daughters in the lake

What a ridiculous thing to say. You should apologize to MH for this disgusting comment.

[dre]

You find it acceptable to have that father drown his three daughters in the lake

I know! Hardner just cant see enough kids drowned in lakes.

[betsy]

Well - why are you pussy footing around it ? Be clear & specific - what are you proposing ?

Promotion of assimilation and at the same time, discouragement of segregation. Well-planned! This expectation should be clearly specified in our immigration requirements. We stop invoking MULTI-CULTURALISM, and instead put every emphasis on ASSIMILATION.

Surely if we can successfully promote and have abortion accepted as just another normal activity as removing a wart, I'm sure they can come up with something to successfully promote and enact on any concept or idea!

Of course we stop fundings on cultural activities. If a certain cultural group would want to hold their own, then they can fund it themselves.

Our immigration laws or requirements should be updated - a real overhaul! One of which is to be more discerning!

Never mind pussyfooting around the UN! If the UN whines about our immigration practices, let them have our rejects!

So far, it sounds like another post complaining about people not assimilating to a standard of behavior.

Complaining is good. It's better to hear them without automatically being judgemental on those that complains. I'm telling you, political correctness is an impolite yet pseudo-"polite" way of being dictatorial.

Well, we have laws that are enforced - do you have anything

Oh baloney! Just only this past summer or fall, I saw a group of Muslims in front of the Queens that boldly chants, "Death to the Jews!" Their placards say, "Death to the Jews!" There were some outrage but it was still allowed. You know what the excuse was? "OH this group do this annually...."

Why are some groups above your law? That's what I want to know.

If you care to pose me a question, I will be glad to answer it. All I'm doing is asking questions. If you want to suggest something at least have the courage to spell it out rather than force us to ask questions.

Blaming political correctness for the behavior of that anti-immigrant person in the video is ridiculous.

I don't need to pose you a question. Your knee-jerk reaction is answer enough. See? All I did was post the OP....and sure enough, political-correctness automatically reared its destructive head! That's exactly one of the major point of this topic.

The woman in the video is not an immigrant, so your point is murky to me. Clearly she has her emotional level in overdrive and her brain in neutral. I don't have to address issues brought forward by a screaming idiot, nor do I have to give any weight to her views. At a certain point, though, if there are many like her then they have to be dealt with - but they will not be dealt with as thinking adults but as the masses.

I, on the other hand, would want to analyze more closely behind that episode.

Why would an Englishwoman - all by herself in a closely-confined tram crowded by immigrants - go on a highly provocative tirade against the people that surrounds her?

Even if she is indeed racist - would a real racist risk doing what she did?

I applaud the people for their extreme patience at such a provocation....but it could've easily turned out real ugly for that woman! Her mental state is in question of course.

However, she's not the only one. There are more of these videos by different women, and other blatant racist attacks in other countries. I saw one in an Australian bus - and I do feel for the two blacks that had gone through that scarey experience.

The question is: was she indeed racist? Or was she driven by frustration to become racist, or to make racist remarks?

So this ties up with the scary observation that's happening in Europe - which some of us had predicted would happen. The boldened emergence of the far right. The visibility of the Supremacists. They're the ones with more to gain - benefiting from the fiasco being created by political correctness.

Edited December 31, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

I'd like you to take a look at this video and give your comment about it. It's supposed to be a social experiment.

[Michael Hardner]

Promotion of assimilation and at the same time, discouragement of segregation. Well-planned! This expectation should be clearly specified in our immigration requirements. We stop invoking MULTI-CULTURALISM, and instead put every emphasis on ASSIMILATION.

Surely if we can successfully promote and have abortion accepted as just another normal activity as removing a wart, I'm sure they can come up with something to successfully promote and enact on any concept or idea!

Of course we stop fundings on cultural activities. If a certain cultural group would want to hold their own, then they can fund it themselves.

There's no evidence that multi-culturalism has a detrimental effect, and I have anecdotal evidence that it provides a positive atmosphere for a meritocracy by making ambitious immigrants understand that they have a real place in society. This comes from speaking to Poles, people from Asia, educated people who come here to better themselves and in the process to better Canada.

Our immigration laws or requirements should be updated - a real overhaul! One of which is to be more discerning!

Never mind pussyfooting around the UN! If the UN whines about our immigration practices, let them have our rejects!

We have the most open system in the world, it's unlikely they would whine about it. The government is overhauling the system now - wait and see whether it changes to what you're looking for.

Complaining is good. It's better to hear them without automatically being judgemental on those that complains. I'm telling you, political correctness is an impolite yet pseudo-"polite" way of being dictatorial.

Pointless complaining without any suggestion of how to make things better is utterly pointless, and does not lead to productive discussion in my opinion. It's not about political correctness, it's about people will dull minds who come on here and post general complaints about immigration that ignore the reality of our political landscape - and the fact that all parties promote immigration, and that our system (and the American one) are relatively trouble-free when compared to England and France for example.

Oh baloney! Just only this past summer or fall, I saw a group of Muslims in front of the Queens that boldly chants, "Death to the Jews!" Their placards say, "Death to the Jews!" There were some outrage but it was still allowed. You know what the excuse was? "OH this group do this annually...."

Do you have a cite for that one ? The protest in Toronto this summer was reported by some to include elements that expressed that opinion but there were no examples of that printed on placards. Nobody is above the law.

I don't need to pose you a question. Your knee-jerk reaction is answer enough. See?

You're responding to MY response to your accusation that I don't want to answer something. If you want me to answer something directly, then ask - how else am I supposed to answer if you don't pose the question.

Even if she is indeed racist - would a real racist risk doing what she did?

I applaud the people for their extreme patience at such a provocation....but it could've easily turned out real ugly for that woman! Her mental state is in question of course.

However, she's not the only one. There are more of these videos by different women, and other blatant racist attacks in other countries. I saw one in an Australian bus - and I do feel for the two blacks that had gone through that scarey experience.

The question is: was she indeed racist? Or was she driven by frustration to become racist, or to make racist remarks?

She has an obligation to behave civilly in order for her concerns to be heard. Just like on MLW, there are rules in society for civil discourse.

They're the ones with more to gain - benefiting from the fiasco being created by political correctness.

I don't know why you keep bringing up political correctness. It doesn't have anything to do with this as far as I can see - it's a bogeyman.

Really, you're proposing two things: elimination of multiculturalism for some reason, and an 'overhaul' of laws which is happening anyway. That's all this is about. Nobody is saying you're racist and nobody cares about political correctness. It's up to you to prove to the rest of us why your suggestions are a good idea.

[Michael Hardner]

I'd like you to take a look at this video and give your comment about it. It's supposed to be a social experiment.

I watched the first bit of the video. Maybe there is a problem with this phenomenon, I don't know. I'm not sure what you expect me to say about this.

[betsy]

I watched the first bit of the video. Maybe there is a problem with this phenomenon, I don't know. I'm not sure what you expect me to say about this.

The producers call this a "social experiment." It has to be seen as a whole - and then tell me what you think of it.

There's no evidence that multi-culturalism has a detrimental effect, and I have anecdotal evidence that it provides a positive atmosphere for a meritocracy by making ambitious immigrants understand that they have a real place in society. This comes from speaking to Poles, people from Asia, educated people who come here to better themselves and in the process to better Canada.

We have the most open system in the world, it's unlikely they would whine about it. The government is overhauling the system now - wait and see whether it changes to what you're looking for.

Pointless complaining without any suggestion of how to make things better is utterly pointless, and does not lead to productive discussion in my opinion. It's not about political correctness, it's about people will dull minds who come on here and post general complaints about immigration that ignore the reality of our political landscape - and the fact that all parties promote immigration, and that our system (and the American one) are relatively trouble-free when compared to England and France for example.

Do you have a cite for that one ? The protest in Toronto this summer was reported by some to include elements that expressed that opinion but there were no examples of that printed on placards. Nobody is above the law.

You're responding to MY response to your accusation that I don't want to answer something. If you want me to answer something directly, then ask - how else am I supposed to answer if you don't pose the question.

She has an obligation to behave civilly in order for her concerns to be heard. Just like on MLW, there are rules in society for civil discourse.

I don't know why you keep bringing up political correctness. It doesn't have anything to do with this as far as I can see - it's a bogeyman.

Really, you're proposing two things: elimination of multiculturalism for some reason, and an 'overhaul' of laws which is happening anyway. That's all this is about. Nobody is saying you're racist and nobody cares about political correctness. It's up to you to prove to the rest of us why your suggestions are a good idea.

Sure, there is a very clear evidence that multiculturalism has a detrimental effect. I just explained and pointed out to you.

Yes we know people have to be civil - I'm not saying she shouldn't be. I'm not excusing her behaviour, don't get me wrong.

I think you're missing my point. I am looking past beyond her outburst....and trying to analyze why these women are suddenly being so provocatively offensive.

I'm sure that Europe didn't find anything wrong with multiculturalism either. It's too late for England I think . Politics and politicking plays a major role......it's almost impossible to undo and correct that.

No, our situation here isn't like England yet....but we have to take a closer look at what's happening there and in some parts of Europe, that we may be able to prevent it from happening to us.

You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I guess we really differ in our views regarding this.

Edited December 31, 2012 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

Are you suggesting that England's problems will come here eventually ? Why ?

I'm still open to discussion if you have evidence. If not, then how is your opinion being formed?