The Unnanounced Class War

[kimmy]

The elitists did that? And they did it on purpose? They are clever enough to manipulate the biggest economy the world had ever seen, and use the politicians as playthings, but couldn't see the economy's woes coming? I just do not concur. There is no massive conspiracy here.

Not as a massive conspiracy. Just as a result of getting everything they want. "We need lower wages to compete! We need lower taxes to compete! We need to get rid of unions to compete! We need to manufacture offshore to compete! Why aren't people buying our stuff?"

-k

[Guest Derek L]

No worries...I'm just having a little fun with current events ! My core belief system does not "evolve" based on "increasing realization", because if it did, it means I was clueless from the very beginning.

"If you are young, and not liberal, then you don't have a heart. If you are old, and not conservative, then you don't have a brain."

~Winston Churchill

[bush_cheney2004]

None of us have all the information from the very beginning. My core belief in the rule of law remains; my trust in the authorities to uphold the law has changed. And my view of "law and order" issues over the past several years has evolved as a result.

That's great...."fight the pigs" was also very popular in the 1960's. But I am not talking about any specific issue....we have members here who have expressed a wholesale change....an epiphany....in political and social thought. Which just begs the question of, "how could you have been so clueless for so long?" It can undermine their entire position, regardless of the issue...hence the "flip-flopper" label.

[bush_cheney2004]

Who's to blame for nearly killing the economy? It's not the people that have next to no influence on it. It's the bankers and investors that are holding the reigns.

Then it is their economy to do with as they please. No balls...no blue chips.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wager a young BC was idealistic at times, no? It might have been long ago, but surely you had some beliefs amended through experience? Although I suppose that might not be core beliefs.

No....I was a prick from birth. Maybe because boomers my age were bottle fed.

[kimmy]

That's great...."fight the pigs" was also very popular in the 1960's. But I am not talking about any specific issue....we have members here who have expressed a wholesale change....an epiphany....in political and social thought. Which just begs the question of, "how could you have been so clueless for so long?" It can undermine their entire position, regardless of the issue...hence the "flip-flopper" label.

I don't think I've changed. I doubt Argus feels like he's changed. I don't think there's any epiphany, just the realization that my values don't fit with what "the right" wants anymore.

As Grandad Simpson put it,

I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was. Now, what I'm with isn't "it", and what's "it" seems weird and scary to me.

-k

[Guest Derek L]

I don't think I've changed. I doubt Argus feels like he's changed. I don't think there's any epiphany, just the realization that my values don't fit with what "the right" wants anymore.

As Grandad Simpson put it,

-k

Couldn't the same be said of the "left" also?..........Or perhaps with the internet and 24/7 News coverage, what both camps “want” is now better defined and understood……..

[Guest American Woman]

"If you are young, and not liberal, then you don't have a heart. If you are old, and not conservative, then you don't have a brain."

~Winston Churchill

I was a young Republican and now I'm a Democrat - and I've always had both heart and brains. Just goes to show that even the Churchill's of the world are wrong sometimes.

[bush_cheney2004]

I was a young Republican and now I'm a Democrat - and I've always had both heart and brains. Just goes to show that even the Churchill's of the world are wrong sometimes.

Nothing inconsistent about that.....political parties can be polarizing for groups but not necessarily for individual core values. JFK was a Democrat too.

[Guest Derek L]

I was a young Republican and now I'm a Democrat - and I've always had both heart and brains. Just goes to show that even the Churchill's of the world are wrong sometimes.

Ole Winston went back and forth between the Tories and Liberals........And of course, headed a coalition with Labour during the war.....Perhaps opportunism or maybe an evolving dichotomy on his part……Who’s to say.

[kimmy]

Couldn't the same be said of the "left" also?..........Or perhaps with the internet and 24/7 News coverage, what both camps “want” is now better defined and understood……..

Or maybe what both camps "want" has been distorted by the cartoon-job that both sides have done on each other, to the point that neither side actually understands the others' position at all.

-k

Edited December 29, 2012 by kimmy

[Argus]

I think what the elitists want is also an economy that hasn't been on life support for 4 years now. This Powell memo sounds something like a conspiracy theory. Just because the business sector evolved in their behavior towards government and an obscure memo exists, is it really an "aha" moment?

Money makes the world go round, it always has.

The Powell Memo is not obscure. It's quite well-known and was quoted and used by the White House under both Nixon and Reagan.

More to the point, if you examine what corporate America has done since 1971 its hard to say that the advise of the memo has not been followed.

[Canuckistani]

The elitists did that? And they did it on purpose? They are clever enough to manipulate the biggest economy the world had ever seen, and use the politicians as playthings, but couldn't see the economy's woes coming? I just do not concur. There is no massive conspiracy here.

No conspiracy. Just unintended consequences of greed. They destroyed the very economy that made them rich.

[Canuckistani]

I don't think I've changed. I doubt Argus feels like he's changed. I don't think there's any epiphany, just the realization that my values don't fit with what "the right" wants anymore.

What's needed is the resurrection of the Red Tories. The CPC has been pushed in that direction anyway, because of public opinion, but it would be better if we had leaders who led in that direction instead of reluctantly following. I rue the day we didn't elect Bob Stanfield.

[Argus]

Maybe his position evolved, or maybe he took a position that he thought was politically convenient. Whatever. What's your point? I'm not running for office, and when my views change over time it's not to win votes. And when I say evolved, I don't mean a random flip-flop, I mean that (for example) over the past 5 years or so my belief in the rule of law has been tempered by an increasing realization that our RCMP officers and other law enforcement officials are not very trustworthy.

-k

That's exactly it, Kimmy. But have we changed, or has the world changed around us? I used to trust the police, especially the RCMP. That trust took a major hammering over the APEC summit in BC 15 years ago. The series of incidents since then, including the wholesale police riots during the G20 summit in Toronto last year made me realize just how under-trained and disciplined the police are in Canada, and how willing they are to obey orders even in pursuit of illegal behaviour.

In a similar way, my belief that "what's good for GM is good for America/Canada" was trashed during the long years of outsourcing and the spectacular greedfests that Wall Street and Corporate America showed during the 80s and on. Nor has it been helped any by the series of banking scandals over the past several years, and the near collapse of the economy due to incompetence and greed on the part of the corporate world and its bought and paid for politicians. I can not possibly support them in their continuing quest for less taxes and less regulations on their operations. In fact, I support the opposite.

I used to have the thoroughly Canadian motto "Peace, Order and Good Government" as my sig. I can't help admiring how well the social-democratic Nordic countries do at that.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Argus

[Canuckistani]

That's exactly it, Kimmy. But have we changed, or has the world changed around us? I used to trust the police, especially the RCMP. That trust took a major hammering over the APEC summit in BC 15 years ago. The series of incidents since then, including the wholesale police riots during the G20 summit in Toronto last year made me realize just how under-trained and disciplined the police are in Canada, and how willing they are to obey orders even in pursuit of illegal behaviour.

In a similar way, my belief that "what's good for GM is good for America/Canada" was trashed during the long years of outsourcing and the spectacular greedfests that Wall Street and Corporate America showed during the 80s and on. Nor has it been helped any by the series of banking scandals over the past several years, and the near collapse of the economy due to incompetence and greed on the part of the corporate world and its bought and paid for politicians. I can not possibly support them in their continuing quest for less taxes and less regulations on their operations. In fact, I support the opposite.

I used to have the thoroughly Canadian motto "Peace, Order and Good Government" as my sig. I can't help admiring how well the social-democratic Nordic countries do at that.

Good to see. And a country like Sweden actually has a very competitive business climate. Easy to hire and fire, easy to start a business. Where they do it differently is in having greater income redistribution, so that people don't fall thru the cracks. Sounds very Red Tory to me.

[Argus]

The elitists did that? And they did it on purpose? They are clever enough to manipulate the biggest economy the world had ever seen, and use the politicians as playthings, but couldn't see the economy's woes coming? I just do not concur. There is no massive conspiracy here.

I would not call it a massive conspiracy just because organizations act in what they now see as their own interest. When there's a sale on at Future Shop, many people rush down there at the same time. Are they conspiring? Hardly.

When the corporations paid the politicians to rescind many of the laws which blocked the more speculative investments, most especially the Glass-Steagal act no one on Wall Street would have thought that would lead to the mess we saw in 2008, but it did. Without regulation or oversight Wall Street went out and began to engage in every manner of speculative and dangerous investment which almost caused the entire financial industry to collapse. And have they learned from that? Not at all. They're continuing to fight for deregulation at every opportunity. After all, while the financial system almost collapsed, a lot of people made vast fortunes, and that's really all they care about.

[Argus]

They have a funny way of showing it. What did they think would happen when the elite (they probably are elitists as well) gutted the middle class by outsourcing and sucked the economy dry with all those shady financial instruments?

An actual conspiracy has a plan and an end result. But the plan for the corporations and elite does not extend past their own doorsteps. None of them are thinking of what affect their lobbying, should it work, will have on society, or even their industry. All they're thinking is their own immediate profits. If rescinding or implementing a particular bill will enhance profits, then they're all for it. What overall affect that will have on society is not something they ponder. And should they ponder it, well, most of the deleterious affects will pass them by anyway. Ie, if lower taxes mean generally poorer quality schools, health care, and protection for the poor, well, why would that bother them?

Edited December 29, 2012 by Argus

[Argus]

Good to see. And a country like Sweden actually has a very competitive business climate. Easy to hire and fire, easy to start a business. Where they do it differently is in having greater income redistribution, so that people don't fall thru the cracks. Sounds very Red Tory to me.

Perhaps traditionally. Red Tory used to mean socially progressive (to an extent) but fiscally conservative. Where Red Tories failed was that they lost their fiscal conservatism and embraced every passing fad. Much like today's Alberta PCs, they became entirely liberal in all respects. And I don't mean traditional liberal. I mean today's liberal of pandering to everyone and scrambling to appease every interest and provide for every want: damn the cost.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Or maybe what both camps "want" has been distorted by the cartoon-job that both sides have done on each other, to the point that neither side actually understands the others' position at all.

-k

I think what's worse is that neither side these days wants to know what the other side's position is. Take the CPC ignoring every last amendment that has been put forward for their massive and sweeping budget legislation. They don't care anymore. Even conservative commentators are saying that it's shameful how much parliament has become a "team" sport. It's about your team "winning," rather than finding the best solutions through negotiation and compromise. It's not about understanding what others want and trying to find some amicable solution that all sides can agree with. It's about winning power and forcing your agenda through, ignoring everyone that's not on your team.

And it's that mentality that we see with the Class War that Argus identified in the OP. It's the idea that if your team wins, f*** everyone else. There is no sense of co-operation, mediation, or negotiation in federal politics anymore and that seems to be the case in both Canada and the US.

[sharkman]

I would not call it a massive conspiracy just because organizations act in what they now see as their own interest. When there's a sale on at Future Shop, many people rush down there at the same time. Are they conspiring? Hardly.

When the corporations paid the politicians to rescind many of the laws which blocked the more speculative investments, most especially the Glass-Steagal act no one on Wall Street would have thought that would lead to the mess we saw in 2008, but it did. Without regulation or oversight Wall Street went out and began to engage in every manner of speculative and dangerous investment which almost caused the entire financial industry to collapse. And have they learned from that? Not at all. They're continuing to fight for deregulation at every opportunity. After all, while the financial system almost collapsed, a lot of people made vast fortunes, and that's really all they care about.

I think the mess is because of bad government, and you think it' s the result of bad businessmen. At the end of the day, it's bad people who are responsible. Will a "social-democratic" regime save us from bad people?

Personally I don't think so. What we have is an entirely different problem than mere commerce or politics and what it can do when running amuck.

[Argus]

I was a young Republican and now I'm a Democrat - and I've always had both heart and brains. Just goes to show that even the Churchill's of the world are wrong sometimes.

The Republican Party of today is not the Republican Party of twenty years ago. The moderates have all been chased away and the right wing has grown like Pinocchio's nose, moving further and further to the right. There are still conservative democrats, but there are few, if any liberal Republicans.

[Canuckistani]

People have said that Obama is an Eisenhower Republican, and that Reagan, never mind Nixon would not be able to get nominated as a Republican candidate today. Huge shift to crazy land. Which is why they're going to start losing more and more elections. Popular vote is already against them.

[bush_cheney2004]

People have said that Obama is an Eisenhower Republican,

People say a lot of things.....

[sharkman]

Huh? The right wing is not more extremist than it was. We are talking about people that wanted Sunday as a day of rest, thought women shouldn't be working and rock 'n roll was sin(how things have changed). That's like saying the leftwingers are more extreme because they want gay marriage, unlimited abortion and think there is a war on women.

I think the idea that the media and internet has changed our perceptions of each side has some merit.