Fired for being hot

[WIP]

The employer is the boss, it's his practice.

Why do I get the impression from your posts that you believe the employer/employee relationship is a master/slave relationship? Do employees have any rights in rightwingworld? Not from the posts defending this dentist's right to fire an assistant....because his wife made him do it!

[WIP]

Exactly, the guy is a pig and this woman was his scapegoat. I had a boss just like him years ago and he always thought the flirting was reciprocal when it wasn't (as is normally the case with sexual-harrassment).

Yes, and I can't believe how many posting on this thread so far think we're still living in the Victorian Era, where an employer can do whatever the hell they like to an employee! The arguments related to:'she was flirting with him too' do not take into account the difference in power in this relationship. Maybe her conduct seemed flirtatious because she was already concerned about losing her job. Or....and I've seen this in many, many places where I've worked....women will often go along with and not complain about everything from flirting to sexual or degrading comments or jokes, because they're intimidated by guys when they're new on a job, and never worked around men before.

In a larger business, where there's a union, and one man can't act like he has godlike powers - like where I work - we still have a few problems with sexual harassment complaints, that began as soon as the first women were hired, and guys had to learn how to deal with it. In many cases, the new female workers didn't speak out or file a grievance with the union....usually they were either quiting or taking a leave of absence. And most of the guys who were the subject of the complaint, were not classic sexual predators....or certainly didn't see themselves as sexual predators. It seemed to be more of a problem that a lot of guys have naturally by conflating anything a woman might say to them as a sexual come-on....and just following their impulses into turning a misunderstanding into a mess that involves everyone.

My boyfriend at the time hated him and and his wife hated me but if she ended up making him fire me, guess what, her husband was still a pig and I bet he is to this day.

Exactly! The one time I seen something similar to this was way back when I was 16 or 17, working in an Italian restaurant. The guy who owned the place was a pig, who was always grabbing the waitresses (who were my age) even when his wife was working at the time. And one girl who he was especially friendly with....and trying to feel up and rub up close with, never said anything, and only seemed to try to get away from him....but it was the wife who fired her for no good reason, other than the fact that it was the only way she knew how to keep her husband away from young girls!

It was just a job for me so I wouldn't do anything, but if it were my career and I'd put 10 years in I sure would not allow him to fire me for his own bad behaviour without pursuing it legally.

When times get tough....like they seem to be doing in recent years, what would otherwise be entry level jobs, become careers for people, as they are stuck in place with nothing to advance to. So, there should be repercussions in the event of an unreasonable or unlawful dismissal. The problem is what are the realistic chances that someone fired from a low wage job - who was depending on that income, is going to have the financial resources to take her former boss to court?

Nonsense, lots of men know how to be friends with women on a purely platonic level. They may even be attracted to their women friends yet be perfecly capable of behaving appropriately.

I know this one didn't involve me, but I want to 2nd the motion, because it should be underlined that men and women can be platonic friends....and if there are sexual attractions from one party or the other, they can be kept in check. If all the talk about women's liberation and breaking down gender barriers is more than just talk, then men and women have to be able to work together and even be friends, without trying to use those friendships as sexual opportunities.

If it's not possible, why aren't the conservatives and the people who believe male/female relationships are invariably sexual, advocating that we change our society to something like Saudi Arabia? Separate schools for boys and girls....there are some idiot educators who are actually trying to do this unfortunately....no women in the workplace...or at least not working where they may come in contact with men....come on conservatives....and misogynists too....stand by your rhetoric!

[jbg]

Why do I get the impression from your posts that you believe the employer/employee relationship is a master/slave relationship? Do employees have any rights in rightwingworld? Not from the posts defending this dentist's right to fire an assistant....because his wife made him do it!

As readers of this thread know, I'm torn.

The wife has rights, too. And people should come dressed to work appropriately. I would like to see some demonstration that the dentist tried, in good faith, to meld both interests.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why do I get the impression from your posts that you believe the employer/employee relationship is a master/slave relationship? Do employees have any rights in rightwingworld? Not from the posts defending this dentist's right to fire an assistant....because his wife made him do it!

Check your emotions at the workplace door...and U.S. border. Employers can terminate at-will employees for any reason, or no reason at all unless there is a binding contract. Similarly, employees can quit whenever they choose. It's not a "rightwingworld"...it's the law.

[Bryan]

Why do I get the impression from your posts that you believe the employer/employee relationship is a master/slave relationship? Do employees have any rights in rightwingworld?

I don't understand why workers have as many rights as they do. Their end is easy, it's just a job. The employer is in a much tougher situation. Especially in a business like a dentists office, the employer has a much deeper commitment. They can't just leave, they have to be able to make whatever changes they need to. Even if they are just cleaning up messes of their own doing, they still have to be able to do that.

[Guest American Woman]

Why do I get the impression from your posts that you believe the employer/employee relationship is a master/slave relationship?

I get the impression it's because you either aren't reading what I've said or not interpreting it correctly.

Do employees have any rights in rightwingworld?

You'll have to find a rightwinger to answer that for you. I won't presume to speak for them.

Not from the posts defending this dentist's right to fire an assistant....because his wife made him do it!

This right here is what my impression is based on.

[betsy]

I made the headline of the thread the same as the news-article I linked "Bosses Can Fire Hot Workers For Being 'Irresistible': All-Male Court", but the crux of my argument is made in the opening line of my OP.

Exactly, the guy is a pig and this woman was his scapegoat. I had a boss just like him years ago and he always thought the flirting was reciprocal when it wasn't (as is normally the case with sexual-harrassment).

You should look at the other side of the coin. You say the boss is a pig. Well, the woman could be your classic poacher. It could also be that the woman had set out to snare her boss.

Of course it's reciprocal, judging from the article. WITH HER ENCOURAGEMENT - unless she's a real dough-head - after all she embarked on a two-way chitchat about her sex life! As a woman, you'd notice when a man is attracted to you....or getting there.

If you want to be treated as a professional, then behave accordingly. She knew she was playing with fire. What she didn't expect was that the man would end up getting rid of her, (instead of his wife) just so to save his marriage.

[betsy]

WIP, on 26 December 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Why do I get the impression from your posts that you believe the employer/employee relationship is a master/slave relationship? Do employees have any rights in rightwingworld? Not from the posts defending this dentist's right to fire an assistant....because his wife made him do it!

Pardon me, Wip...but it's more actually that the woman had brought it on herself.

By getting on an unprofessional and questionable ground with her boss - talking about her infrequent sex life, and who knows what else - she gave the wife a legitimate reason to make his husband fire her. Why should the wife - who works in that place - be forced to endure her?

I guess she had a lot of explaining to do to her own husband as well.

Edited December 26, 2012 by betsy

[Argus]

Read up on emotional affairs. It doesnt have to start off sexual and often starts as mere friendship, a get away from the stress of marriage (finances, children, responsibility)

No work relationship has to start out sexual. No work relationship has to ever have a sexual component either. I've had several 'work spouses' over the years, and never tried nor wanted them to have a sexual component. Sometimes they steer well clear of any topic related to sex (depending on personalities involved) but at other times, some of the women I've known have been mind-blowingly open about various aspects of their sexual histories and preferences. I know things about the history of one of my married female friends her husband doesn't know and she doesn't want him to know. The thing is, though, neither of us is physically/romantically attracted to the other. So we're just friends. We can talk about a lot of stuff, and it has nothing to do with romance or sex. I have another friend who vents a lot about stuff at work because her husband has never worked in a large business and really doesn't 'get it'. Venting to him is pointless since he's so lacking in understanding and unsympathetic.

And yes, they vent about their husbands/boyfriends too. Maybe that's the part this wife didn't like, that her husband was complaining to a friend about her. But people do that all the time. It makes no difference that the friend is a different gender.

[Argus]

Pardon me, Wip...but it's more actually that the woman had brought it on herself.

By becoming friends with someone she worked with closely for ten years?

[Guest]

Maybe he should have just forced her to wear a burka.

[Guest American Woman]

Maybe he should have just forced her to wear a burka.

He had asked her to wear a lab coat. Nothing out of line or unprofessional about that request.

I find it odd that an employee such as she was, where it's actually the norm to wear a 'uniform/lab coat' would keep insisting that her clothes weren't too tight in spite of her employer saying that they were - and requesting that she wear a lab coat.

[betsy]

By becoming friends with someone she worked with closely for ten years?

But obviously the man is reacting differently now. Can you blame a man for his....nature....or biological reaction....or instinct...or whatever it is that makes a man attracted to a woman? The boss got out of line by bringing the boss-employee relationship on an buddy-buddy ground.

When a boss acts like the "best friend," usually it brings on some other issues that could be detrimental to the work environment. An employee could abuse that relationship, and if the boss tries to get it back to boss-employee relationship, there is a "falling out,"...or a resentment....and also an unfairness about it. Of course there are exceptions, but I think those would be rare.

Lesson from this: maintain the boss-employee relationship. You can be friends - but there is a boundary that shouldn't be transgressed.

This case was further complicated by the presence of the wife in the same workplace. Being a woman myself, I can speak from expereince that I know when a boy friend is attracted to me....and how the wife might feel in that situation.

[betsy]

He had asked her to wear a lab coat. Nothing out of line or unprofessional about that request.

I find it odd that an employee such as she was, where it's actually the norm to wear a 'uniform/lab coat' would keep insisting that her clothes weren't too tight in spite of her employer saying that they were - and requesting that she wear a lab coat.

I think this is an example of what I meant when I said the "buddy-buddy" relationship with the boss can be abused. This woman ignored the boss' request.

[kimmy]

But obviously the man is reacting differently now. Can you blame a man for his....nature....or biological reaction....or instinct...or whatever it is that makes a man attracted to a woman?

Sounds like Muslim logic to me.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

He had asked her to wear a lab coat. Nothing out of line or unprofessional about that request.

Certainly not.....wearing proper workplace attire is a problem for some men and women. I guess it conflicts with their individualism, sense of style, and freedom of expression, but HR staff now have to go to the trouble of defining what is and is not acceptable. What I see at work sometimes is laughable, but quite intentional. Get with the program or get a different job.

[Bonam]

No work relationship has to start out sexual. No work relationship has to ever have a sexual component either. I've had several 'work spouses' over the years, and never tried nor wanted them to have a sexual component. Sometimes they steer well clear of any topic related to sex (depending on personalities involved) but at other times, some of the women I've known have been mind-blowingly open about various aspects of their sexual histories and preferences. I know things about the history of one of my married female friends her husband doesn't know and she doesn't want him to know.

And you think that her husband might not be a bit resentful (if he knew) of the extent of the emotional relationship that you and his wife have? Might he not think askance of the fact that his wife has aspects of her sexual history that she's willing to discuss with male coworkers, but not with her own husband? In general, I think the idea of a "work spouse" is kind of BS, because it's the emotional and communicational aspects of a relationship that can often matter the most, and if an individual has these relationships established better with a coworker than with their actual spouse... well, then their actual marriage is probably just an empty shell of one.

The thing is, though, neither of us is physically/romantically attracted to the other.

Either she's ugly, or your wife works really hard to keep you satisfied I suppose ;p

So we're just friends. We can talk about a lot of stuff, and it has nothing to do with romance or sex. I have another friend who vents a lot about stuff at work because her husband has never worked in a large business and really doesn't 'get it'. Venting to him is pointless since he's so lacking in understanding and unsympathetic.

Again, sounds like a problematic marriage, where one feels that their spouse cannot understand/listen to them, and they'd rather confide their feelings and emotions in a coworker of the opposite gender.

[Argus]

And you think that her husband might not be a bit resentful (if he knew) of the extent of the emotional relationship that you and his wife have? Might he not think askance of the fact that his wife has aspects of her sexual history that she's willing to discuss with male coworkers, but not with her own husband?

He and I are entirely different people. I'm much more open-minded about such things. He would not WANT to know some of these things. And our relationship is more like siblings than anything else. She is much younger than me, for one thing.

In general, I think the idea of a "work spouse" is kind of BS, because it's the emotional and communicational aspects of a relationship that can often matter the most, and if an individual has these relationships established better with a coworker than with their actual spouse... well, then their actual marriage is probably just an empty shell of one.

What if I was a woman? Would it be okay then? Women often have very close relationships with their female friends, and don't always tell their husbands everything. And no, their relationship is fine. They love each other, have kids, etc.

Either she's ugly, or your wife works really hard to keep you satisfied I suppose ;p

No, she's not ugly, just not my 'type'. Other men find her quite attractive. I'm not saying that men can't be attracted to women in such circumstances. I have another very close married female friend I'm very much attracted to. Different circumstances, though, and I'd be attracted to her regardless of whether we were friends or not. Likewise, her level of attraction to me would be unchanged. The friendship, in my opinion, actual acts against the likelihood of us getting involved in that way.

I think that, given people spend the majority of their time at work, it's natural to seek out relationships there. Those relationships don't have to interfere with home relationships and can sometimes actually aid them. In one particular case a friend complained bitterly about her husband, and then finished with "And don't make excuses for him this time!". Because I often understand him, or what his problem is, in a way she can't. I 'get' why he does things sometimes, that she doesn't. He's just not a very good communicator...

[betsy]

Sounds like Muslim logic to me.

-k

I don't know muslim logic.

I'm talking about biology. Well how can the man stop his attraction to this woman? It's gotten to the point when it's inevitable....given the kind of intimate exchanges between the two? And how the woman dressed up for work - obviously it's having an effect on the man.

Edited December 26, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

I think that, given people spend the majority of their time at work, it's natural to seek out relationships there.

So cases like this are bound to happen. That's like playing with fire. Somebody's bound to get burned.

[BC_chick]

And one girl who he was especially friendly with....and trying to feel up and rub up close with, never said anything, and only seemed to try to get away from him....but it was the wife who fired her for no good reason, other than the fact that it was the only way she knew how to keep her husband away from young girls!

But of course, that's always the case. "Men are men" and women have to be the keepers of men's penises. As you and kimmy said, it's typical Muslim mentality.

I don't know, all my life I've had this strange belief that my partner is responsible for his behaviour around other women, not the other way around. Even when I was cheated on I never held the other woman responsible as I've seen some women do.

I would be okay with my husband flirting, but this guy was going way beyond that and he was doing it in the same office where the wife worked. What a gem, yeah, so the wife decides to keep the husband and fire the pretty receptionist.

Some women would rather bury their head in the sand than take a long good hard look at their own husbands.

Getting rid of the 'temptation' does nothing but put a band-aid on the bigger issue which is the husband's wandering eye.

Edited December 26, 2012 by BC_chick

[Argus]

I don't know muslim logic.

I'm talking about biology. Well how can the man stop his attraction to this woman? It's gotten to the point when it's inevitable....given the kind of intimate exchanges between the two? And how the woman dressed up for work - obviously it's having an effect on the man.

So what? I used to work with a very hot young lady who was the only person in government I ever knew who habitually flashed cleavage (and she had a lot to flash). I thought she was attractive, and we were friends, but I wouldn't have dreamed of coming on to her. She was way younger than me and we really didn't have a lot in common anyway. Well, other than we both seemed to admire her cleavage. I never would have thought to tell her to stop dressing the way she did because she was too provocative and I was finding myself interested. I'm interested in lots of women. That doesn't mean I can't control myself, for Gods sake. It doesn't mean it turns me into some sort of trembling sexually aroused wretch either. She's got nice breasts. Oh, and she's flashing her thong. Very nice! But so? Once you're out of your teens you're supposed to have a modicum of self control.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Argus

[Argus]

So cases like this are bound to happen. That's like playing with fire. Somebody's bound to get burned.

Why? You can only care about one person? You can't have friends you care about and like to chat with?

Do you have any friends, Betsy?

[WIP]

As readers of this thread know, I'm torn.

The wife has rights, too. And people should come dressed to work appropriately. I would like to see some demonstration that the dentist tried, in good faith, to meld both interests.

I don't think the wife has any more right than her husband, to fire an employee for personal reasons that are mostly the fault of her husband....since he was the one with the power in whatever relationship existed between him and this woman.

[Bryan]

I don't think the wife has any more right than her husband, to fire an employee for personal reasons that are mostly the fault of her husband....since he was the one with the power in whatever relationship existed between him and this woman.

What "power" did he have? Is he the only dentist in the world?