Mass shooting

[Signals.Cpl]

Do you really think a criminal gives a crap about gun laws or gun control? I am no fan of playing craps, but I do, I want my dice to be loaded.

No they don't, but making guns more accessible to them sure doesn't solve the problem either now does it?

If they have a proper carry and conceal license and are properly trained, I do not have an issue with it. It's those criminals that are illegally carrying guns that are the cause of the problem you are talking about.

There are enough idiots with a drivers licence who should not have one makes me lose faith the whole licensing process.

Criminals don't care what your standards are.

And putting a gun in the hands of this genius makes no sense at all:

I would prefer to take my chances with a criminal then have this joker come to my rescue.

Taking all guns does not solve the problem, it just shifts it to other methods of violence but neither does adding more guns to the equation... fix the underlying issues and you can keep your guns add more guns and we will see more violence without resolution to the problem at hand.

[GostHacked]

No they don't, but making guns more accessible to them sure doesn't solve the problem either now does it?

Even Joe Biden admits that these new gun control laws will not prevent another mass murder like at Sandy Hook. Take away the cause and reason/desire to kill and you can throw all the guns at that person and he/she simply won't kill anyone. The guns are not the issue.

There are enough idiots with a drivers licence who should not have one makes me lose faith the whole licensing process.

I am not going to disagree with you here. However we do treat firearms licensing with a little more care than a drivers license. But what you are eluding to is proper training and proper people to train and license others. I am all for proper training and education. Use your freakin signal and do a damn shoulder check people!!!

And putting a gun in the hands of this genius makes no sense at all:

I would prefer to take my chances with a criminal then have this joker come to my rescue.

I cannot see the vid at the moment (firewall blocked it) but I shall check it out tonight at home.

Taking all guns does not solve the problem, it just shifts it to other methods of violence but neither does adding more guns to the equation... fix the underlying issues and you can keep your guns add more guns and we will see more violence without resolution to the problem at hand.

So what really is the underlying issue? This is what we have been trying to understand since this thread was started. Why is the common factor among many of these mass shootings where the perp had some mental condition in which the medication was the most likely cause of pushing them over the edge.

[Signals.Cpl]

Even Joe Biden admits that these new gun control laws will not prevent another mass murder like at Sandy Hook.

There is no one single thing or action that will prevent other mass casualty attacks like Sandy Hook but a lot of different actions aimed at preventing such violence can have a great impact overall.

Take away the cause and reason/desire to kill and you can throw all the guns at that person and he/she simply won't kill anyone. The guns are not the issue.

And you don't "Take away the cause and reason/desire to kill " by throwing more guns at the problem... making guns available to more people does not solve the problem, solving the underlying issues solve the problem but it seems the NRA is not interested in solving the problem but rather deflecting the blame on to someone else.

So what really is the underlying issue?

In my view some of the underlying issues are mental illness and the lack of proper treatment for the mentally ill. Also the fight against gangs being the need to throw as many of them in jail as possible which solve nothing instead of destroying their manpower by giving kids another way out and you defeat gangs without throwing anyone in jail or killing anyone. Put more officers in problem area's and put more services and activities in those areas for the young people. Another big one is bullying.

Why is the common factor among many of these mass shootings where the perp had some mental condition in which the medication was the most likely cause of pushing them over the edge.

I don't think the medication is to blame in many of the cases but rather the lack of treatment or in some cases a decision to stop taking the medication that kept them from being violent.

[Guest Derek L]

Derek, do you tell your kids they're bad for developing chickenpox or Parkinson's disease? Would you get rid of them?

If either of my children (The eldest an RPAL holder and youngest a minor’s licence holder) developed a disease that could cause them to potentially become a danger to society I feel both through our family and the State measures and safeguards should be in place to restrict their access to firearms, coupled with treatment.

If one of my children became suicidal and/or homicidal, restrictions to firearms though is not the endgame.

With all that being said, neither of my children (or members of my extended family) are in such a state, as such, they shouldn’t be punished or penalized for illnesses that have inflicted others, nor the crimes committed by them.

What I find hypocritical of you’re stance relating to mental illness is that a person possessing firearms does not have a psychoactive reaction take place on their usage, yet you advocate a pastime that does ferment ones brain with usage.

[Guest Derek L]

It can, but the difference is that you can make a standard and enforce it, increase training or any number of other things which when it comes to mass of people owning guns is less than practical. It is one thing to have a police department of 500-50,000 and demanding and maintaining a standard while it is a whole other thing to expect and/or demand a high standard of 50-100 million gun owners.

How many wrongful police shootings take place a year in North America as compared to shootings by CCW holders?

You determine if the incident happened because the police officer is an idiot or lacked the proper level of training. One officer screws up and you can use that as a way to educate and train others to avoid the same problem, this happens with civilians the likelihood of getting something positive out of it is unlikely.

Care to explain further?

I am good with firearms as well, but I am the exception rather than the rule when it comes to Canadians in general. The difference between civilians having right to carry a pistol and a police officer carrying a pistol is that you can increase the training and standard as well as frequency of testing while with civilians not so much.

Sure you can increase standards and frequency of testing for civilian carry, and unlike for LEOs, such a feat would be revenue neutral.

Ever thought that shooting at a stationary target is so much different then shooting at a human being who can move and duck and all that fun stuff? The thought that I can carry a pistol and pull it out in a gunfight without knowing who is who and wether they are the good guys, the bad guys or bystanders like myself might lead me to shoot on a first come first serve basis.

Can you demonstrate that being a frequent (if at all ) occurrence with CCW holders in the States?

And I will add, if you felt the need to shoot first come, first serve, I would be forced to question the firearms training now garnered upon the purple trades within the Canadian Forces……….I know that I put many magnitudes more holes in paper with my own personal Hi-Power then the CF’s.

I would assume that an undercover police officer would have a way to avoid getting shot by other officers(badge, radio etc) something that a random gun owner might not have.

That all goes back to fundamentals, and by no way precludes a civilian taught to the same standard as a police officer…………We do it with the RCMP in little over 60 hours.

[Guest Derek L]

"Your side" wants to get rid of the "bad people" with guns by arming even more people with guns?

Not quite, “my side” wants the ability for “good people” to posses firearms if they so desire……….

[Guest Derek L]

If a crime is being committed against you, and you feel your life is in danger, what would you prefer the attacker have?

1 - a knife

2 - a bat

3 - a board with a nail in it.

4 - a firearm.

I have no problem with people having pistols at home my issue is when they start carrying it around and out everyone else in danger. The lower the standard for gun ownership the lower the quality of gun owners the more likely it is for firearms to fall in the hands of undesirable gun owners.

Who said anything about lowering standards.........I've suggested further strengthen them both here and the United States.

[Guest Derek L]

Taking all guns does not solve the problem, it just shifts it to other methods of violence but neither does adding more guns to the equation... fix the underlying issues and you can keep your guns add more guns and we will see more violence without resolution to the problem at hand.

Bullshit…….Let’s say I have 50 firearms within my home, if I doubled said number, how would society be more violent?

[Guest Derek L]

And you don't "Take away the cause and reason/desire to kill " by throwing more guns at the problem... making guns available to more people does not solve the problem, solving the underlying issues solve the problem but it seems the NRA is not interested in solving the problem but rather deflecting the blame on to someone else.

Are you suggesting it’s the NRA’s fault that mental health histories are not released by the States to the already existing FBI NICS?

[Guest Derek L]

And it looks like here we go again:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/07/online-manifesto-by-former-cop-wanted-in-shooting-rampage-threatens-asymmetrical-warfare-against-los-angeles-police/

LOS ANGELES — Thousands of police throughout Southern California and neighbouring states hunted Thursday for a disgruntled former Los Angeles police officer wanted for going on a murderous shooting rampage.

Christopher Dorner, who has military training and was fired from the LAPD in 2008, declared war on police after he posted a manifesto online stating, “I will bring unconventional and asymmetrical warfare to those in LAPD uniform whether on or off duty. Unfortunately, I will not be alive to see my name cleared. That’s what this is about, my name. A man is nothing without his name.”

One officer is already dead and his colleague critically injured after they were shot as they sat in a patrol car at a red light in Riverside, Calif. Police described it as a “cowardly ambush.”

Well another armed nut, the difference between this and the other recent shooters is that this fellow isn’t a disgruntled teen or twenty something, but a fellow with military and police training……….So far one cop dead and two injured, and the daughter (and her fiancé) of another cop killed…………And said shooter, a liberal anti-gun Democrat, has apparently released a manifesto of the cops (and their families) that he plans to kill, amongst naming any other cop “fair game” well also acknowledging that he will eventually loose his life.

Who was saying only cops can be trusted with guns due to the trust society places in their "extensive" training?

[Guest Derek L]

And here's the manifesto:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/interactive/2013/02/07/ex-lapd-officer-christopher-jordan-dorner-manifesto/

[Guest Derek L]

And some of his Naval background:

http://www.huffingto..._n_2638023.html

"Self-preservation is no longer important to me. I do not fear death as I died long ago," the manifesto said. "I was told by my mother that sometimes bad things happen to good people. I refuse to accept that."

Dorner said he would use all of his training to avoid capture and track his targets.

Dorner also had served in the Naval Reserves, earning a rifle marksman ribbon and pistol expert medal.

He was assigned to a naval undersea warfare unit and various aviation training units, according to military records, and took a leave from the LAPD and deployed to Bahrain in 2006 and 2007.

"I will utilize every bit of small arms training, demolition, ordinance and survival training I've been given," the manifesto read. "You have misjudged a sleeping giant."

This won’t be pretty...........

Edited February 8, 2013 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

And some of his Naval background:

This won’t be pretty...........

Not too worried....I qualified expert with rifle and pistol in the Navy too but I ain't no sniper. Most guys in the Navy are not even allowed to keep their weapons loaded because of too many accidents !

A good "manhunt" is a throwback to an earlier time, complete with coon dogs. I agree that these kind of whackos are most dangerous when they know they are going to die, but usually the cops find them dead from "self inflicted gunshot wound(s)".

I think the DC Sniper case was far more "interesting"...same 'ol Bushmaster .223 (with a bipod).

[Guest Derek L]

And further evidence of the “extensive firearms training” police are given:

http://www.huffingto..._n_2638701.html

LOS ANGELES -- Police officers shot innocent people during the frenzied manhunt for Christopher Dorner, a former cop suspected of murdering 3 people and shooting several more.

Officers from the Los Angeles and Torrance police departments engaged in two separate shootings Thursday morning in Torrance, Calif., reports KTLA. They had come across two different vehicles that were similar to the description of Dorner's getaway car, a gray 2005 Nissan Titan pickup.

The first shooting incident happened at 5:20 a.m. Officers from the Hollywood division of the LAPD shot two people who turned out to have no connection to Dorner's crimes. They were transported to the hospital with gunshot injuries.

The second incident occurred 25 minutes later and involved Torrance police. While shots were fired, there were no reported injuries.

In a press conference Thursday morning, LAPD Chief Charlie Beck confirmed that police shot innocent bystanders during the hunt for Dorner. He detailed the two victims' gunshot wounds:

"One has a minor gunshot wound and is in the process of being released. The second person is in stable condition, with two gunshot wounds," said Chief Beck. "Tragically, we believe this was a case of mistaken identity by the officers."

Sources tell the Los Angeles Times that the people shot by police were two women delivering newspapers. One was shot in the hand and the other in the back.

So the police officers mistakenly shot innocent people……….Possibly two women, and one in the back? This, well looking for a large black male………..But no, regular folk can’t be trusted with firearms to defend themselves……

Edited February 8, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

Not too worried....I qualified expert with rifle and pistol in the Navy too but I ain't no sniper. Most guys in the Navy are not even allowed to keep their weapons loaded because of too many accidents !

A good "manhunt" is a throwback to an earlier time, complete with coon dogs. I agree that these kind of whackos are most dangerous when they know they are going to die, but usually the cops find them dead from "self inflicted gunshot wound(s)".

I think the DC Sniper case was far more "interesting"...same 'ol Bushmaster .223 (with a bipod).

That’s quite the achievement with the old percussion revolvers back in those days……….

Yeah, heard they have the Parks’ Service smell hounds out now……….I think in this case though, he’s already acknowledged in his manifesto that he’s going to die Jihad style………

From what I understand, he’s a former force protection (reserve) sailor, that just last week received an honourable discharge ……..Do you guys train the reserves as UDT or are they limited to “Hurt Locker” shaky-hands? I wonder if things might start going BOOM….

[bush_cheney2004]

....From what I understand, he’s a former force protection (reserve) sailor, that just last week received an honourable discharge ……..Do you guys train the reserves as UDT or are they limited to “Hurt Locker” shaky-hands? I wonder if things might start going BOOM….

Any good EOD tech can work with explosives....UDT was rolled into SEAL and vehicle delivery teams a long time ago. That was Jesse Ventura's big claim to fame...UDT or SEAL ??

You can be damn sure that the screenplay is already being written for this guy...same as the DC Sniper movie. What a country !!

[Guest Derek L]

Any good EOD tech can work with explosives....UDT was rolled into SEAL and vehicle delivery teams a long time ago. That was Jesse Ventura's big claim to fame...UDT or SEAL ??

You can be damn sure that the screenplay is already being written for this guy...same as the DC Sniper movie. What a country !!

Just noticed this pic of him:

A lieutenant, meaning he is educated ………And further schooled in implementing offensive and defensive warfare tactics, combined with a report I heard on the news, an intelligence billet……..I wonder if police really “found” the damaged boat in San Diego and his burnt out truck up in the hills…….Or he intended for them to find them…………..As was pointed out by one of the talking heads on the news, if he was planning on ditching his truck, why not just park it and walk away as opposed to torching it?

[bush_cheney2004]

A lieutenant, meaning he is educated ………And further schooled in implementing offensive and defensive warfare tactics, combined with a report I heard on the news, an intelligence billet……

This is the most I can find on his education and Navy deployments:

Southern Utah University spokesman Dean O'Driscoll confirmed Thursday that Dorner attended the university from 1997 to 2001, and graduated with a bachelor's degree in political science and a minor in psychology. The university is located about 250 miles south of Salt Lake City in Cedar City, Utah.

Dorner joined the U.S. Navy in 2002, achieving the rank of lieutenant in 2006, according to military records. He served as a reservist in Nevada and San Diego, and was a member of the Coastal Riverine Group deployed to Bahrain from November 2006 to April 2007. He was stationed at the Navy Mobilization Processing Site in San Diego in 2007 and the Navy Air Station Fallon reserve unit in Nevada in 2009. He left Navy service officially on Feb. 1.

During his service, he was awarded the Iraqi Campaign Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Rifle Marksman Ribbon, Pistol Expert Medal, among other commendations.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/ci_22544336

This guy probably watched First Blood (Rambo) too many times.

[Signals.Cpl]

How many wrongful police shootings take place a year in North America as compared to shootings by CCW holders?

Might be hard to compare as on one hand you have the police officers who run towards the gun battle while the CCW get involved if they happen to be in the immediate area, but its only a matter of time before someone decides to be a hero.

Care to explain further?

Wrongful death by police could be used as a means to improve the standard, learn from the mistakes of the past but when we consider people who have CCW ≈ 2% of the US population and climbing the actions of a CCW holder in a state on the east coast most likely will not result in any improvement.

Sure you can increase standards and frequency of testing for civilian carry, and unlike for LEOs, such a feat would be revenue neutral.

But the end result would be that you still have LEO who need more training and you now have CCW holders who are well trained but one does not do the job of the other. Having something like 6million well trained CCW holders in the US does not negate the need for the ≈ 700,000 LEO that is unless you intent to press CCW holder in to police duties.

Can you demonstrate that being a frequent (if at all ) occurrence with CCW holders in the States?

What? Unless you have firearms to feel big and strong it would be for protection and common sense dictates that when shooting at someone they duck unlike most targets.

And I will add, if you felt the need to shoot first come, first serve, I would be forced to question the firearms training now garnered upon the purple trades within the Canadian Forces……….I know that I put many magnitudes more holes in paper with my own personal Hi-Power then the CF’s.

My point is that a CCW holder has none of the information and in fact will make it that much harder for the police to act, if the CCW holders were to be effective they need to act fast and you might be fast on the range but when the bad guy is not entirely too obvious the benefit of having a CCW decreases.

That all goes back to fundamentals, and by no way precludes a civilian taught to the same standard as a police officer…………We do it with the RCMP

So your position is to train civilians to the standard of police officers instead of hiring more police officers and giving them better training?

[Signals.Cpl]

Not quite, “my side” wants the ability for “good people” to posses firearms if they so desire……….

And yet I have not heard one good suggestion come from the gun owners... neither have a heard a good suggestion coming from the ban all guns crowd. The gun debate in the US will be going on for a long time because both sides are led by extremist idiots who don't want to solve the underlying problem but instead they want to either deflect the blame or get a feel good "solution" that solves nothing.

[Bonam]

And yet I have not heard one good suggestion come from the gun owners... neither have a heard a good suggestion coming from the ban all guns crowd.

Actually there have been plenty of good suggestions put forth by both sides. They are of course purposefully ignored, as anything that isn't extremist divisive rhetoric all too often tends to be.

[Signals.Cpl]

Who said anything about lowering standards.........I've suggested further strengthen them both here and the United States.

And that is unlikely when you get in to the millions and tens of millions of people applying for the permit while having hundreds of thousands "maintain/improve the standard"... I can only imagine the idiots who will get their hands on guns just by watching what kind of idiots they allow on the roads.

[Guest Derek L]

This is the most I can find on his education and Navy deployments:

Southern Utah University spokesman Dean O'Driscoll confirmed Thursday that Dorner attended the university from 1997 to 2001, and graduated with a bachelor's degree in political science and a minor in psychology. The university is located about 250 miles south of Salt Lake City in Cedar City, Utah.

Dorner joined the U.S. Navy in 2002, achieving the rank of lieutenant in 2006, according to military records. He served as a reservist in Nevada and San Diego, and was a member of the Coastal Riverine Group deployed to Bahrain from November 2006 to April 2007. He was stationed at the Navy Mobilization Processing Site in San Diego in 2007 and the Navy Air Station Fallon reserve unit in Nevada in 2009. He left Navy service officially on Feb. 1.

During his service, he was awarded the Iraqi Campaign Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Rifle Marksman Ribbon, Pistol Expert Medal, among other commendations.

http://www.dailybull...com/ci_22544336

This guy probably watched First Blood (Rambo) too many times.

Or if there is any substance to his claims of rot within the LAPD………Serpico?

[Signals.Cpl]

Actually there have been plenty of good suggestions put forth by both sides. They are of course purposefully ignored, as anything that isn't extremist divisive rhetoric all too often tends to be.

Both sides(the most vocal) are extreme and thus their suggestions are the loudest, one side wants to ban all guns while the other claims the government will kill your kids if you don't have a rifle to stop them.

[Signals.Cpl]

Are you suggesting it’s the NRA’s fault that mental health histories are not released by the States to the already existing FBI NICS?

No, I am suggesting that the NRA is tripping up every suggestion that might help the situation because they are terrified of losing any of the guns that define them.