First nations patiences waning

[jacee]

Why would the RCMP investigate any further? It would be the exact same if they heard allegations that I was assaulted but I didn't come forward. That's the way the system works. They can't investigate until they have people to talk to instead of the ghosts they're dealing with now.

My point about investigation was the investigation that the province is already doing or the one that Human Rights Watch did or possibly what the Feds may do. Yes...these are investigations of policy but what else can they do until people come forward?

I'm not saying the RCMP are innocent but without people to come forward I will have no choice but to believe their innocence...and so should you.

Not sure what the province is doing.

Feds only policy.

No police reporting option has yet been offerred except RCMP, which is not an option.

[jbg]

It doesn't appear that you have any constructive thoughts.

I am asking the "leaders" to articulate a constructive program. They are the experts, after all.

[jacee]

I find the report suspicious, I don't see any reliable sources to back up the report's claim...

Typically during rapes there are only perpetrators and victims present, not corroborating witnesses.

What "reliable sources" would you have in mind?

[Sleipnir]

What "reliable sources" would you have in mind?

That is just it, what reliable source is there to suggest that such heinous deeds are rampant like a pandemic within the RCMP force? Anyone can say anything under the guise of obscurity. If you're gonna accused someone or an organization of crimes of this magnitude, you better have something compelling to back up your claim.

Beside, this wouldn't be the first time that some natives intentionally falsified their claim of the RCMP for being malicious.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Sleipnir

[jacee]

That is just it, what reliable source is there to suggest that such heinous deeds are rampant like a pandemic within the RCMP force? Anyone can say anything under the guise of obscurity. If you're gonna accused someone or an organization of crimes of this magnitude, you better have something compelling to back up your claim.

Beside, this wouldn't be the first time that some natives intentionally falsified their claim of the RCMP for being malicious.

What evidence can you provide to support that claim?

[jacee]

I am asking the "leaders" to articulate a constructive program. They are the experts, after all.

They've done that.

Particularly key, he said, will be Harper's commitment to empower senior officials to modernize and implement treaties and speed up comprehensive land claims.

First Nations chiefs across the country are angry that the treaties and inherent rights —recognized in the Canadian constitution — have long been ignored by government, leaving aboriginal communities impoverished, uneducated and unable to progress.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/national-chief-lays-out-timelines-priorities-for-talks-with-harper-188384051.html?device=mobile

I think if we repaid the money embezzled from their trust funds, it would be a good start.

Lots more information here about FN priorities.

http://www.afn.ca/index.php/en

Edited February 16, 2013 by jacee

[Sleipnir]

What evidence can you provide to support that claim?

Which claim? You basically highlighted everything I said.

[Accountability Now]

Not sure what the province is doing.

Feds only policy.

No police reporting option has yet been offerred except RCMP, which is not an option.

Ok....I'll say it again. The police reporting option can only go ahead when credible witnesses step forward. Whether it is right or wrong...it is just the way it is. That is the system. Do you want the RCMP to go against the system for this special case?

[Accountability Now]

They've done that.

Particularly key, he said, will be Harper's commitment to empower senior officials to modernize and implement treaties and speed up comprehensive land claims.

First Nations chiefs across the country are angry that the treaties and inherent rights —recognized in the Canadian constitution — have long been ignored by government, leaving aboriginal communities impoverished, uneducated and unable to progress.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/national-chief-lays-out-timelines-priorities-for-talks-with-harper-188384051.html?device=mobile

I think if we repaid the money embezzled from their trust funds, it would be a good start.

Lots more information here about FN priorities.

http://www.afn.ca/index.php/en

Empower senior officials???? The same idiots who are making more than the PM while their own people have nothing? Why the hell would any government do that? You seriously call that constructive??

I read through the article you wrote and the AFN site and neither make concrete claims of what needs to be done. Only more vague claims about honoring treaties. What part of the treaties? We can give them the six beaver pelts and garden hoes that were promised. Come up with a real time solution. Something to bring the FN info today's age!

Oh...what imbezzlement of FN trust fund are you talking about? Show me this.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Accountability Now

[jacee]

Empower senior officials???? The same idiots who are making more than the PM while their own people have nothing?

No.

I think they're referring to senior government bureaucrats and land claims negotiators who come to the table without any power to negotiate anything.

"We don't have a mandate to do that."

They listen, shrug and leave.

And we pay them millions a year ... to shrug.

I read through the article you wrote and the AFN site and neither make concrete claims of what needs to be done. Only more vague claims about honoring treaties. What part of the treaties? We can give them the six beaver pelts and garden hoes that were promised. Come up with a real time solution. Something to bring the FN info today's age!

Oh...what imbezzlement of FN trust fund are you talking about? Show me this.

An example:

• SixNations filed a Statement of Claim on March 7,1995 against the Crown Canada and Ontario requesting an accounting of all land and monetary transactions held in trust by the Crown

http://www.sixnations.ca/LandsResources/lsuProcess.htm

In the treaties, certain lands were 'surrendered' to the control of the Crown for sales, leases, resource extraction (logging, mining etc). The Crown managed such transactions, and proceeds were to be placed in a trust account for each Indigenous Nation. However, the governments 'haven't provided an accounting' for many of the trust funds, despite a century or more of requests and some recent litigation attempts.

It's generally believed that the money went instead into general government revenues, spent on us for infrastructure, etc.

Indigenous Nations, via the treaties, planned and provided for themselves to be self-sustaining. Instead their trust funds were often embezzled leaving them in the severe poverty and dependency we still see today.

The 'funding' so grudgingly 'handed out' today is a drop in the bucket compared to our true debts to Indigenous Nations.

We should never forget that we built this country on their land ... with their money.

Does that help?

Edited February 17, 2013 by jacee

[TimG]

Instead their trust funds were often embezzled leaving them in the severe poverty and dependency we still see today.

This country was built by people who often came to here with nothing. In some cases what they had was stolen by the government (e.g. Japanese-Canadians WW2). The descents of these people are not living in poverty. Nothing is going to change as long as aboriginals wallow in the past and expect handouts from others. Edited February 17, 2013 by TimG

[jacee]

This country was built by people who often came to here with nothing. In some cases what they had was stolen by the government (e.g. Japanese-Canadians WW2). The descents of these people are not living in poverty. Nothing is going to change as long as aboriginals wallow in the past and expect handouts from others.

You seem to have misinterpreted, so let me be clear:

We built this country on Aboriginal land using Aboriginal money, and we haven't yet paid them back for either.

[jacee]

Ok....I'll say it again. The police reporting option can only go ahead when credible witnesses step forward. Whether it is right or wrong...it is just the way it is. That is the system. Do you want the RCMP to go against the system for this special case?

Yes.

If you were raped by an RCMP officer, would you feel safe reporting it to the RCMP?

[Accountability Now]

In the treaties, certain lands were 'surrendered' to the control of the Crown for sales, leases, resource extraction (logging, mining etc). The Crown managed such transactions, and proceeds were to be placed in a trust account for each Indigenous Nation. However, the governments 'haven't provided an accounting' for many of the trust funds, despite a century or more of requests and some recent litigation attempts.

Jacee.. We've been through this already. The treaties don't say certain lands...they say ALL lands and rights to those lands surrendered. Reserves were made to keep natives safe but those lands too were to be owned by the crown. Please don't tell me what the treaties say because its not the treaties that have caused any confusion, its the bleeding hearts in the courts.

You say that the government has done no accounting of the trust fund. What do you call this audit which clearly outlines the FN trust find?

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1321564482345/1321564505320

I guess this is just fictional? Or better yet conspiracy theory? Oh wait...is this irrelevant?

Whether its the RCMP or the FN trust fund, you only have allegations and zero facts.

[Accountability Now]

Yes.

If you were raped by an RCMP officer, would you feel safe reporting it to the RCMP?

Again you are going in circles. These people have the national and somewhat international spotlight. They can report the claims to the government and should not feel fear as its in the open.

I wouldn't feel scared now that its so public. However I would be scared if I knew my story was embellished or if there was more to it...which is why I believe these women aren't coming forward

[jbg]

They've done that.

Particularly key, he said, will be Harper's commitment to empower senior officials to modernize and implement treaties and speed up comprehensive land claims.

First Nations chiefs across the country are angry that the treaties and inherent rights —recognized in the Canadian constitution — have long been ignored by government, leaving aboriginal communities impoverished, uneducated and unable to progress.

http://www.winnipegf...l?device=mobile

I think if we repaid the money embezzled from their trust funds, it would be a good start.

Lots more information here about FN priorities.

http://www.afn.ca/index.php/en

Everything you're talking about involves giving more money or land that can be traded for money. Any ideas for development?

[jbg]

You seem to have misinterpreted, so let me be clear:

We built this country on Aboriginal land using Aboriginal money, and we haven't yet paid them back for either.

Really? The aboriginals had money?

Roaming as hunter/gatherers does not equal money or ownership of land. At best it's a mere license to use land.

[Accountability Now]

You seem to have misinterpreted, so let me be clear:

We built this country on Aboriginal land using Aboriginal money, and we haven't yet paid them back for either.

Aboriginal land is 0.2% of Canada. Get real! Canada was built on the development of the 99.8% of the other land. Stop spewing the same BS that has made FN people modern day victims! You help no one by doing this!

[TimG]

We built this country on Aboriginal land using Aboriginal money, and we haven't yet paid them back for either.

So what? Aboriginals have had access to every service and benefit that immigrants got. Yet their society is a complete mess while immigrants have, for the most part, been successful. You can't claim it is racism because immigrants often faced racism an discrimination when they got here.

At the end of the day the only people responsible for the state of aboriginal society are aboriginals. Nothing will improve as long as they insist on blaming others.

Edited February 17, 2013 by TimG

[jbg]

Aboriginal land is 0.2% of Canada. Get real! Canada was built on the development of the 99.8% of the other land. Stop spewing the same BS that has made FN people modern day victims! You help no one by doing this!

And the aboriginal population had dropped to 2-5% of its former levels before white man made a measurable footprint on what is now Canada and the U.S.?

[DogOnPorch]

So what? Aboriginals have had access to every service and benefit that immigrants got. Yet their society is a complete mess while immigrants have, for the most part, been successful. You can't claim it is racism because immigrants often faced racism an discrimination when they got here.

At the end of the day the only people responsible for the state of aboriginal society are aboriginals. Nothing will improve as long as they insist on blaming others.

Yup...in a nutshell.

[sharkman]

No kidding. Tim G., that's a fine bit of clear headed thinking.

[cybercoma]

Yup...in a nutshell.

You do a business transaction with someone and they break the contract, screwing you out of the benefits you were to receive from that contract. You petition them repeatedly, asking them to honour their agreement and they refuse. You take them to court and the court sides with you and they continue to refuse. Now that someone is an abstract entity and cannot actually be imprisoned. But you're saying it's your fault you got screwed over? You're saying that the person you were doing business with has absolutely no accountability in the matter? In any other sphere, other than aboriginal affairs, this would be considered criminal.

However, whenever these discussions come up about the First Nations, there are a good many people that take to blaming the victims of fraud. Of course, I wouldn't expect any less from the same people that think the sun shines straight out of the backside of Wall Street bankers. When you can explain away the very real harm that is caused to people by these fraudulent activities, when you're willing to turn a blind eye to it and blame the victims, you're a danger to society. These are criminal activities to the tune of billions, but there are people shrugging it off like it's nothing and telling the victims to suck it up. Meanwhile, a guy walks into a convenience store and robs the till and his life is ruined through criminal prosecution. Those that do the most harm have done an excellent job of covering their tracks by creating abstract entities that they can hide behind. You can't put handcuffs on a corporation. You can't put handcuffs on a bank. You can't put handcuffs on the government. You also can't pinpoint the decisions to any given individual, since the very nature of this kind of social organization is to diffuse responsibility and power.

So we have abstract entities engaging in criminal behaviour, destroying communities, harming individuals and the response of many is "so what?" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" This kind of Wild West mentality is not the kind of society people expect that they're living in. They expect reasonable protection from those that would not honour contracts signed. If we do not protect contracts, then no one can make reasonable decisions. No business transaction is safe. And the very foundations of our economy and society are meaningless.

[DogOnPorch]

You do a business transaction with someone and they break the contract, screwing you out of the benefits you were to receive from that contract. You petition them repeatedly, asking them to honour their agreement and they refuse. You take them to court and the court sides with you and they continue to refuse. Now that someone is an abstract entity and cannot actually be imprisoned. But you're saying it's your fault you got screwed over? You're saying that the person you were doing business with has absolutely no accountability in the matter? In any other sphere, other than aboriginal affairs, this would be considered criminal.

However, whenever these discussions come up about the First Nations, there are a good many people that take to blaming the victims of fraud. Of course, I wouldn't expect any less from the same people that think the sun shines straight out of the backside of Wall Street bankers. When you can explain away the very real harm that is caused to people by these fraudulent activities, when you're willing to turn a blind eye to it and blame the victims, you're a danger to society. These are criminal activities to the tune of billions, but there are people shrugging it off like it's nothing and telling the victims to suck it up. Meanwhile, a guy walks into a convenience store and robs the till and his life is ruined through criminal prosecution. Those that do the most harm have done an excellent job of covering their tracks by creating abstract entities that they can hide behind. You can't put handcuffs on a corporation. You can't put handcuffs on a bank. You can't put handcuffs on the government. You also can't pinpoint the decisions to any given individual, since the very nature of this kind of social organization is to diffuse responsibility and power.

So we have abstract entities engaging in criminal behaviour, destroying communities, harming individuals and the response of many is "so what?" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" This kind of Wild West mentality is not the kind of society people expect that they're living in. They expect reasonable protection from those that would not honour contracts signed. If we do not protect contracts, then no one can make reasonable decisions. No business transaction is safe. And the very foundations of our economy and society are meaningless.

I live with these boyos and their native 'ways'. No amount of PC jibber-jab will alter what I've seen over the decades re: Native life-style. Sorry.

[TimG]

So we have abstract entities engaging in criminal behaviour, destroying communities, harming individuals and the response of many is "so what?" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!"

This is the story of many immigrants who come here and they managed. Being a victim is does not excuse the failure of native society to move beyond the past do what every immigrant has had to do. The idea that treaties or more cash are going to change anything is pathetically naive. In fact, people like you who pander to this victim mythology are enablers who supply the addict with drugs which destroy the addict's life. Edited February 17, 2013 by TimG