First nations patiences waning

[jacee]

Ol

That's funny. I can tell when you're defeated. We weren't discussing how the courts would interpret, we were discussing the original objective wording. Like many orther native protesters, Cybercoma said that the Crown has broken the treaties. That was when I posed the question of which treaty. The fact is that the Crown has not broken the treaties but may have broken the courts interpretation of the treaties.

It only matters how the courts interpret it.

That's the law we all live with.

As for De Beers...I was really hoping would would step out of your shell. Attiwapiskst accepted the De Beers deal with 85% approval. The people blockading feel they haven't been compensated enough. This is very black and white and does not need the courts interpretation to show the blockades are offside. If the mine would have lost money, would they be there to chip in? Now that the mine is making money they have their hand out. You have to agree this example is hypocritical and sets a poor example for FN.

I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.

Is it a problem for your commute?

[Bonam]

Canada has three founding peoples - Indigenous, French, British - and three legal traditions

Aboriginal Law

French Civil Code

British Common Law

How we respect and incorporate all three defines us as Canadians.

Imo.

There's a lot more than one indigenous people, and they do not generally regard themselves as all one people, nor do they all have one common set of "Aboriginal Law". Just as you correctly make the distinction between French and British rather than lumping them together as Europeans (for example), so too should you not lump together the many different "first nations".

[jacee]

There's a lot more than one indigenous people, and they do not generally regard themselves as all one people, nor do they all have one common set of "Aboriginal Law". Just as you correctly make the distinction between French and British rather than lumping them together as Europeans (for example), so too should you not lump together the many different "first nations".

Yes, you're right.

So that we have common ground for discussion of Aboriginal rights in Canadian law,

I use Aboriginal Law collectively to refer to all treaties, agreements and pre-existing rights of all Indigenous Nations.

The particular "existing Aboriginal and treaty rights" may vary from one community to another depending on specific historical treaties or negotiated modern treaties and agreements.

All are covered by the Constitution and the Royal Proclamation and, unfortunately, the 'Indian' Act much in need of modernization.

[Accountability Now]

Ol It only matters how the courts interpret it.

That's the law we all live with.

Hmmm...so you are ok with everything the court says? The courts have told the Papaschase that their land claim is invalid. Do you whole heartedly side with the courts there too? Or how about when a murderer gets off due to a technicality? Are you still willing to live and die with the courts?

I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.

Is it a problem for your commute?

What kind of an answer is that? Do the oilsands in Alberta pollute your backyard? Do the land claims in Ontario take away your rights? Seriously....another reason why you shouldn't have these discussions. The minute you are beat in an arguement you immediatley resort to illogical statements.

[jacee]

Hmmm...so you are ok with everything the court says? The courts have told the Papaschase that their land claim is invalid. Do you whole heartedly side with the courts there too? Or how about when a murderer gets off due to a technicality? Are you still willing to live and die with the courts?

They haven't finished all their legal options yet: They still have a valid claim for compensation to pursue.

While the law isn't perfect, it's more useful as a common reference point for discussion than 34m different interpretations.

What kind of an answer is that? Do the oilsands in Alberta pollute your backyard? Do the land claims in Ontario take away your rights? Seriously....another reason why you shouldn't have these discussions. The minute you are beat in an arguement you immediatley resort to illogical statements.

AN, you need to stop the personal insults.

I repeat, I don't know enough about Attawapiskat to form an opinion.

[Accountability Now]

AN, you need to stop the personal insults.

I repeat, I don't know enough about Attawapiskat to form an opinion.

There is NOTHING personal about what I said. You said "Is it a problem for my commute?"....that is personal. I am simply pointing out that you aren't using facts to discuss the topic. It is a fact that your responses lack logic and will only circle away from the conversation rather than addressing that you have lost the debate. If you don't like people picking apart your illogical staements then perhaps you should reconsider your time spent on here.

[jacee]

There is NOTHING personal about what I said. You said "Is it a problem for my commute?"....that is personal. I am simply pointing out that you aren't using facts to discuss the topic. It is a fact that your responses lack logic and will only circle away from the conversation rather than addressing that you have lost the debate. If you don't like people picking apart your illogical staements then perhaps you should reconsider your time spent on here.

/ignore

[Accountability Now]

/ignore

Yup...that is the level of intelligence that i expected.

[WIP]

And all of these conflicting cultures and laws are directly responsible for why the Native American people are in such an awful state. They don't need more treaties and money, which their chiefs just blow and stick their hands out for more. They need to realize they live in one of the best countries in the world if they would just try. But I'm sure the likes of you will be on the wrong side of the road blocks next summer when protest season starts up.

Since you've framed your anti-native argument around the notion of western cultural superiority, I am going to challenge you on that basis rather than the legal arguments that everyone else is focusing on, because it was this hubris of being morally, racially and culturally superior to the first nations peoples of the Americas that led to all of the genocides and strategies to marginalize and slowly exterminate anyone claiming first nations status today.

You will learn too late that you should have listened to those people who were trying to cling to the old ways with their outmoded ideas like sustainability - not drawing more from nature than can be provided indefinitely. The 7 billion+ people living on this planet today are within years or at most - decades from using up all of the essential non-renewable resources that are necessary to keep what we call civilization functioning. Eventually, the capital and extraction costs of retrieving essential non-renewables reaches the point where the costs of extraction, refining and development overtake the utility benefits of having the resource. What happens then? For a detailed look at what is and what is not already reaching or already past peak resource exploitation, I would suggest taking a look at a book that provides a detailed examination from the reports provided by mining and other resource industry materials available for public access by an engineer named Christopher Clugston: http://www.nnrscarcity.com/ Those who believe we can innovate and substitute our way endlessly into the future need to take a hard look at the numbers. Failure to do so is delusional thinking and living in denial by those who are the most emotionally invested in faith in human progress.

Even if we set aside the overtaking of renewable resources and increasing environmental damage caused by modern consumer-driven industrialism, an objective examination of inputs and outputs reveals that what you consider being on the "right side" and traditionalists being on the "wrong side," is a way of life that didn't even get started until less than 300 years ago when the enlightenment project began, and through human hubris and overconfidence, has almost used up its necessary resources and turned nature into a giant toilet that is already backing up and eroding the quality of life.

In a matter of decades or even years, even the richest and most isolated people who have enriched themselves from this system won't be able to protect themselves from the destruction and inevitable collapse of civilization. In this inevitable future, who is on the right side of history: the greedy, hedonistic exploiters of nature or the simple, backward peoples of the world trying to figure out how to live again in harmony with nature?

[jacee]

Yup...that is the level of intelligence that i expected.

You are free to express your opinion and disagree with mine.

Repeated personal attacks, however, are a violation of forum rules.

Reported.

Time to improve the quality of your conversation, Accountability Now.

Edited February 20, 2013 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

You are free to express your opinion and disagree with mine.

Repeated personal attacks, however, are a violation of forum rules.

Reported.

Time to improve the quality of your conversation, Accountability Now.

Report all you want. I have done nothing that constitutes a personal attack against you. I have only attacked your opinions and the lack of logic that your opinions pose.

[jacee]

Report all you want. I have done nothing that constitutes a personal attack against you. I have only attacked your opinions and the lack of logic that your opinions pose.

Enough.

Back to topic pls.

[Accountability Now]

This article sums it up:

http://www.chroniclejournal.com/content/news/local/2013/02/20/idle-no-more-right-movement-wrong-target

[jacee]

This article sums it up:

http://www.chroniclejournal.com/content/news/local/2013/02/20/idle-no-more-right-movement-wrong-target

Make no mistake, I am not saying that historic federal and provincial policies, especially around resource development and sharing have been historically exclusionary and to this point, a major contributing factor in the impoverishment of many of Canadas First Nations.

...

The core issue is one of capacity. The capacity of our leaders to recognize the opportunities in their traditional territories. The capacity to strategically plan the development of those opportunities consistent with community priorities and aspirations. The capacity of community administrators to properly implement those plans and in doing so, become wealth creators for their respective First Nations.

I don't disagree, and I think the Idle No More movement calls on all governments - provincial, federal and First Nations - to work together to improve opportunities and self-sufficiency for Indigenous communities and to do so in an ecologically sustainable manner.

It also represents the increasing activism and direct involvement of Indigenous people in the decisions that affect them, challenging all governments and holding them accountable to the people.

This is a good example:

http://idlenomore.ca/index.php/item/154-breachtreatiesinherentrights

: A meeting was scheduled by the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada (AANDC) at the TCU Center in Saskatoon for consultations on Education.

...

The consultation process that was utilized is contrary to its own statement of open and meaningful dialogue and further, it contradicts the jurisprudence on the Duty to Consult.

The morning meeting was open to the public and was closed in the afternoon, which left many people confused. No reason for closed doors were given beyond, it was a closed meeting for the afternoon. Many grassroots people felt excluded from a process that directly impacts them, their children and future generations.

Grassroots people who wanted to attend the afternoon session were met with hostility and were refused entry at the door, as they were pushed and shoved by security guards refusing to allow them into the meeting.

Idle No More declares the process illegal and contrary to the international standard of free and prior consent as set forth, which Canada is a signatory, in the "United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People (UNDRIP)".

Furthermore, Idle No More declares the Treaties and Inherent Rights breached and/or infringed by the British Crown's successor state, Canada as their was intentional physical exclusion of the grassroots people who are directly and detrimentally impacted by this proposed "consultation process".

I think this direct involvement is a really positive development, a vast improvement over hopelessness and despair. No doubt there may be some missteps - like the AFN Chiefs threatening 'nation-wide blockades', totally misunderstanding and misappropriating the movement - quickly squelched. The focus on educating the public and challenging leaders to do better is encouraging.

[Rocky Road]

You are the one throwing bullshit comments about business deals and breaking contracts but you don't have the first clue about how to back it up. Save your long winded rants for Jacee.

You want to talk about breaking business deals? How about those dipshits up in Attiwapiskst making a true business deal with De Beers. 85% of the band voted the deal in which gave millions to the band ( most of which funneled to Spence). But now they block the road because one guy didn't get his cut from the band? And how is that De Beers fault? They sure have their hands out now that the mine is doing well but if the mine had lost money? Would they be there to chip in?

You guys speak of honor and what it is to be Canadian but who know nothing of it. Canadians are not victims. We are hard working people who look inwards to find solutions and not for handouts. The FN should become their own nation as they are nothing like Canadians! Jacee and Cyber can go live with them!

I agree

[PIK]

Funny how the liberals are in love with the indian now, when they have treated them as badly as anyone out there, but when that indian is a conservative ,it all changes. As I said before the only good indian is the one that gives the libs good photo ops like spence. And when the next election comes they will wish they never met the women.

Edited February 21, 2013 by PIK

[Accountability Now]

Funny how the liberals are in love with the indian now, when they have treated them as badly as anyone out there, but when that indian is a conservative ,it all changes. As I said before the only good indian is the one that gives the libs good photo ops like spence. And when the next election comes they will wish they never met the women.

Yes...I have to agree that a lot of the fiasco with Native affairs has been nothing but political posturing. Once a party is in power, it ends up being a target for the non-powers at that time. It would be nice if they just dealt with the issue with politics aside but thats probably asking for way too much.

[jacee]

Funny how the liberals are in love with the indian now, when they have treated them as badly as anyone out there, but when that indian is a conservative ,it all changes. As I said before the only good indian is the one that gives the libs good photo ops like spence. And when the next election comes they will wish they never met the women.

"the liberals" ? Edited February 21, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

Yes...I have to agree that a lot of the fiasco with Native affairs has been nothing but political posturing. Once a party is in power, it ends up being a target for the non-powers at that time. It would be nice if they just dealt with the issue with politics aside but thats probably asking for way too much.

I agree.

But putting "politics aside" isn't something our governments ever do ... none of them.

[Accountability Now]

I agree.

But putting "politics aside" isn't something our governments ever do ... none of them.

OMG....did we actually agree on something?

[jacee]

OMG....did we actually agree on something?

Apparently we did!

[cybercoma]

You mean liberal judges apointed by liberals in our liberal justice systme made a typically paternalisticly liberal decision?

Harper's a liberal? He appointed 5 of 9 supreme court justices.

[gunrutz]

Harper's a liberal? He appointed 5 of 9 supreme court justices.

And the judges who decided to allow treaty rights to exist without limitation in the situation i was refering to, in the modern era, made that decision when?

You can do better. Or perhaps not.

[jacee]

And the judges who decided to allow treaty rights to exist without limitation in the situation i was refering to, in the modern era, made that decision when?

Why don't you tell us?

A link perhaps?

[jacee]

At least 3,000 died in residential schools, research shows: Dormitories for aboriginal children in disgraced system were disease 'breeding grounds'

At least 3,000 children, including four under the age of 10 found huddled together in frozen embrace, are now known to have died while they were attending Canada's aboriginal residential schools, according to new unpublished research.

While deaths have long been documented as part of the disgraced residential school system, the findings are the result of the first systematic search of government, school and other records.

"These are actual confirmed numbers," Alex Maass, research manager with the Missing Children Project, told The Canadian Press from Vancouver.

"All of them have primary documentation that indicates that there's been a death, when it occurred, what the circumstances were."

The number could rise further as more documents especially from government archives come to light.

The largest single killer, by far, was disease.

For decades starting in about 1910, tuberculosis was a consistent killer in part because of widespread ignorance over how diseases were spread.

"The schools were a particular breeding ground for [tuberculosis]," Maass said. "Dormitories were incubation wards."

The Spanish flu epidemic in 1918-1919 also took a devastating toll on students and in some cases staff. For example, in one grim three-month period, the disease killed 20 children at a residential school in Spanish, Ont., the records show.

While a statistical analysis has yet to be done, the records examined over the past few years also show children also died of malnutrition or accidents. Schools consistently burned down, killing students and staff. Drownings or exposure were another cause.

Children don't die 'accidently' from malnutrition: They are starved to death.

Many children didn't die 'accidently' from disease either: They were infected and died because of over-crowding. Among the general population, people with TB were quarantined ... since 1900, but not in the 'Indian' residential schools even decades later.

There's a link to another recent news item: Harper refused to release all archive and other records relevant to the residential schools, and was recently ordered to do so.

Ottawa ordered to provide all residential schools documents: Truth and Reconciliation Commission took federal government to court over denial of millions of documents

The investigation of deaths of children in the residential schools has just begun.

Edited February 25, 2013 by jacee