Smallc Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 As if that will be the end of that particular story! They will keep pushing and trying alternatives to sneak through what they need to meet the greater objective of getting at resources on native lands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 As if that will be the end of that particular story! They will keep pushing and trying alternatives to sneak through what they need to meet the greater objective of getting at resources on native lands. So your predicting the future now? Really, how is it possible to have any sort of reasonable dialogue with someone who thinks like that, i know, those of us who live in the real world want to destroy the environemnt for the sake of big oil, i know. If at some time the governements of all the provinces and the feds remove all of the environmental protection laws, such as the big lie i've read several times from the Idle gang about how there will be no need for impact assesments and companies can come on to anyone's land and drill etc, if that happens i'll be with you. This is the lie that at least some of them are being told, and clearly you don't mind passing it along and using these people to further your aims and beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/12/separate-and-equal-nations-the-academic-theory-behind-idle-no-more/ I think this is a good over view of whats really going on, this isn't about the red herring that is bill c45, that is just the excuse, this is an ideolgical fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 http://news.national...d-idle-no-more/ I think this is a good over view of whats really going on, this isn't about the red herring that is bill c45, that is just the excuse, this is an ideolgical fight. Good read....confirming what I have long suspected about First Nations and Canada: He said many Indians identify as Canadians, though not to the degree that American Indians identify as Americans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 If you start rewriting agreements, like the dramatic cut in the number of protected waterways bundled in with Harper's omnibus bill, a lot of people would turn into fundamentalists too! All the government has done is eliminate the duplication of having two levels of government (and often three) responsible for approving anything about those waterways. Now the provinces have jurisdiction. If I was on the 403 when....I assume Six Nations people set up a sympathy blockade, I might not be happy with it either. And I would expect the police to move in and remove them as quickly as possible. But the inconvenience people are sqawking about over blockades, pales in comparison to taking away territory or seizing what's underneath the land at as cheap a price as possible. I reject the notion that someone can attack me or my interests because of something that happened before my great, great grandparents even came to this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 As if that will be the end of that particular story! They will keep pushing and trying alternatives to sneak through what they need to meet the greater objective of getting at resources on native lands. If there are exploitable resources on/under native lands then the natives would, I presume, be delighted to see them made use of so that their people can earn a living and improve their lives. Why you would find this to be such a danger is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) If there are exploitable resources on/under native lands then the natives would, I presume, be delighted to see them made use of so that their people can earn a living and improve their lives. Why you would find this to be such a danger is beyond me.The greenies will always be the dupes of the natives who use them to extract concessions from the government and then sign deals with the corporations that the greenies detest so much. Look at what happened in Clayquot. Edited January 13, 2013 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 This is one of the more intelligent pieces I've read on the issue of natives and their demands, and explains why more money will help nothing, unless it is provided in the form of high quality services like education and health care -- which must be provided initially by outsiders due to the dysfunctional nature of native cultures and governments. Recognizing that additional resources are required to solve aboriginal problems does not mean writing larger cheques to aboriginal leaders. Most of these leaders have little interest in improving the lives of the marginalized; their concern is gaining control over government funds, which results in unqualified friends and relatives “delivering” low quality services. Untold millions are also provided to lawyers and consultants in the Aboriginal Industry to perpetuate grievances and justify a return to a romanticized past. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-dream-palace-built-on-gas-and-gold-wont-solve-aboriginal-poverty/article7158684/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Political Smash Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well I'm all over this, as you are all about to find out for those of you unfamiliar with me. Funny thing I just joined this site and it asked how man letter in Canada and I actually had to count them out lol Hello everyone Pay taxes and get governing services / funding or stay on land claims and chief themselves / David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 http://news.national...d-idle-no-more/ I think this is a good over view of whats really going on, this isn't about the red herring that is bill c45, that is just the excuse, this is an ideolgical fight. I think the real fight is between power/wealth and everything that is labouring to hold it up. Ideology is the red herring. I think the only way to seeing this more clearly will be if human beings start identifying themselves as Earthlings or Terrans or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 I reject the notion that someone can attack me or my interests because of something that happened before my great, great grandparents even came to this country. Why is the notion that your interests actions in the present be defended on the same basis be any less repellent? The golden ages of our past are always presented as reasons why things are the way they are and more importantly why they shouldn't change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 If you start rewriting agreements, like the dramatic cut in the number of protected waterways bundled in with Harper's omnibus bill... What agreement was rewritten by the "cut" you mention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) All the government has done is eliminate the duplication of having two levels of government (and often three) responsible for approving anything about those waterways. Now the provinces have jurisdiction. The only possible issue here is that the constitution clearly dictates that "Indians and lands reserved for Indians" are under the jurisdiction of the federal parliament. The federal parliament may therefore be shirking its constitutional duty to legislate for reserves (pertaining to assessment and approvals for developments affecting waterways running through reserves, specifically). I don't know for sure, however. [ed.: +] Edited January 14, 2013 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 This is one of the more intelligent pieces I've read on the issue of natives and their demands, and explains why more money will help nothing, unless it is provided in the form of high quality services like education and health care -- which must be provided initially by outsiders due to the dysfunctional nature of native cultures and governments. Recognizing that additional resources are required to solve aboriginal problems does not mean writing larger cheques to aboriginal leaders. Most of these leaders have little interest in improving the lives of the marginalized; their concern is gaining control over government funds, which results in unqualified friends and relatives “delivering” low quality services. Untold millions are also provided to lawyers and consultants in the Aboriginal Industry to perpetuate grievances and justify a return to a romanticized past. http://www.theglobea...article7158684/ And, even if that bullshit piece could be taken at face value, it would not provide a basis for attacking the Idle No More movement, because it's a grassroots movement that some chiefs (like the favourites of SunMedia) are trying to stop or marginalize, while others are running to try to get in front of the parade. The mostly women leadership of Idle No More across Canada have a better grasp of what's needed and what should be done about corrupt chiefs on isolated reserves who don't want the system changed, but rather prefer to just keep skimming money off the top and keeping the natives under control for the Government. But, what's most objectionable about this racist house organ at the Globe, is that she can't come up with original thoughts herself, so she has to rely on quoting other corporate propagandists at the Globe (columnist Jeffrey Simpson) for inspiration: Finally, it recognizes the mythology of assertions about an indigenous environmental consciousness. The lack of environmental degradation before contact was obviously due to the primitive technology and subsistence economies of hunter gatherers and horticulturalists, not some kind of “sacred link” to the land. Okay, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, so listen up, corporate tools who buy the bullshit that environmental consciousness is a myth! It's not a myth...pure and simple! It's a simple matter of fact for animals that have lived most of their 200,000 year history as modern humans, that until very, very recently, we were captive to the dictates of nature, and had to develop a deep understanding of nature and an appreciation for what nature could provide, and what it could not, or would not! This environmental consciousness did not start to unravel until the Age of Agriculture provided people the opportunity to live in the same places and overtax the land for long periods of time before the soil was finally burned out. But, farmers....even farmers of my father's generation, still had some awareness of the fact that nature was not some giant candy store to be unlocked and plundered for resources! My father abandoned the family farm just before I was born, because he couldn't or refused to adjust to the new agricultural regimen that was imposed on farmers post-WWII....dumping large quantities of oil-based fertilizers instead of rotating crops, growing monocultures instead of a diversity of crops etc. The old agriculture, if not permanently sustainable, could at least maintain the soil for hundreds of years, whereas today's agribusiness will stop as soon as the oil-based fertilizers and mined phosphates stop arriving. So, it's not the natives who are living a myth! It's us....or the majority here who believe in a cornucopia of human ingenuity....of which, I am a dissenter! On many isolated reserves, elders(many of whom were forcibly sent away to boarding schools and lost a lot of their own culture), are trying to teach their young people how to hunt and together, they are trying to relearn what has been lost. The people who march in lock step with the business class and believe their bullshit that we can keep on growing and consuming larger and larger amounts of energy and resources forever, are the ones who are living an illusion....an illusion that will shatter at some point in the coming years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 If there are exploitable resources on/under native lands then the natives would, I presume, be delighted to see them made use of so that their people can earn a living and improve their lives. Why you would find this to be such a danger is beyond me. Why you can't understand the danger, is beyond me! Most of the comment I've read from people that are being enticed by offers from mining companies and other developers, is that most agree to allowing development -- but not at the pace or the scale that the mining companies want to do it! The mining operations want to get in as fast as possible, dig the largest open pits imaginable, and exhaust the resource and make as much money as quick as possible...and move on, since there is always a new opportunity somewhere....even if they have to wait for the CIA to install a banana republic dictator to do it! Most of the natives seem to be smart enough to realize that when they agree to a mine or a pipeline running through their territory, the good times will not last forever....as we can see in places like Alaska, where the original Prudhoe Bay field is almost exhausted, and is not even pumping enough oil to keep the pipeline warm enough to prevent freeze-ups. If they can't find and start exploiting a new field soon, that pipeline will disintegrate faster and a whole new one would have to be built. So, the natives are smart enough to at least realize that non-renewable resources means they have finite limits! I'm glad at least somebody does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 So, the natives are smart enough to at least realize that non-renewable resources means they have finite limits!Except they have no plan to support the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed without resource extraction so they really have no choice but extract resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Except they have no plan to support the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed without resource extraction so they really have no choice but extract resources. Of course they do. Mo money from the govt. It's still resource extraction of a sort, except the tax payer is the resource. Nice life if you can get it, and you can get it if you're Aboriginal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Of course they do. Mo money from the govt. It's still resource extraction of a sort, except the tax payer is the resource. Nice life if you can get it, and you can get it if you're Aboriginal.Except that is a finite resource too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Canadian federal, provincial, and local governments spend thousands on garden variety 'non-status' citizens each year, without any regard to "resource extraction" or "ceding of land rights". Many of these citizens pay little to no taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Except that is a finite resource too! They don't believe it. Just as we didn't believe the trees would ever run out in BC, so we did a lot of timber mining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Most of the natives seem to be smart enough to realize that when they agree to a mine or a pipeline running through their territory... I thought you said First Nations never got to agree to any resource extraction on reseve land, unless it was the result of threats from the government... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accountability Now Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 One thing I don't get....the FN keeps talking about the government providing inadequate housing. Didn't they used to live in Tipis? If they are so in touch with nature then why don't they just do that. I trust they can buy load of tipis with the billions of dollars they recieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 I've heard this argument before that native rights should be exercised according to old methods they used before contact. Fair enough I guess, but only if we try to manage them with the technology Europeans had when they arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Fair enough I guess, but only if we try to manage them with the technology Europeans had when they arrived.Why? It is European social structures that created the societies that built the technologies we have today. Natives are ones claiming they reject that society while they drive their SUVs and watch their big screen TVs. Edited January 15, 2013 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accountability Now Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 My point is only that Natives constantly use the 'all or none' argument when ever it works to their favor. They want to meet with the Queen because that's who they signed the treaties with. Seriously? Ok...then we will also pay you $5 per year and give you hoes to farm your lands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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