Unions Using Teachers Using Students

MiddleClassCentrist · December 13, 2012

There has to be a teacher present still. Insurance blah blah blah. Student Safety blah blah blah. Teachers are only interested in student safety when others are going to be brought in to do the job, they refuse to do. School's have to hire private security now because teachers refuse to patrol the school during lunch hour etc.

excuse me? They have to hire security because a teacher is not allowed to physically restrain a student.

Teachers are scared to break up fights because they could face recourse if something goes wrong.

Fletch 27 · December 17, 2012

Why do the Ontario teachers simply picket and strike the ridings that are Liberal Riding? After all, the Teachers Union endorsed the Liberals provincially. Why would they dare come to Halton when halton rejected the Liberals and voted in Ted Chudleigh?. Does this make any sense or are they just out to impact every student and parent in Ontario regarless of political stripes?

Boges · December 17, 2012

excuse me? They have to hire security because a teacher is not allowed to physically restrain a student.

Teachers are scared to break up fights because they could face recourse if something goes wrong.

So all schools hire private security now? Never saw that when I was in High School.

Boges · December 17, 2012

Why do the Ontario teachers simply picket and strike the ridings that are Liberal Riding? After all, the Teachers Union endorsed the Liberals provincially. Why would they dare come to Halton when halton rejected the Liberals and voted in Ted Chudleigh?. Does this make any sense or are they just out to impact every student and parent in Ontario regarless of political stripes?

The Conservatives also supported Bill 115. The PCs are actually the only ones that think the provisions in the Bill should actually be used.

MiddleClassCentrist · December 17, 2012

Lol. Halton. Figures thats where Fletch hails from... To many soccer moms driving luxury SUVs to worry about labour rights...

Fletch 27 · December 18, 2012

Too many people employing other people......at least we voted "correctly" and these unionists take it out on us? We voted pc! It was the unions who made the dumb/wrong choice! It's poetic justice but their "haiku" seems to suck. I think the pc's are "trending" now.

Toronto can hate us all they want... They just look kinda silly now don't they

Edited December 18, 2012 by Fletch 27

cybercoma · December 18, 2012

Fletch, why are you holding school children hostage to push your anti-union agenda? You're just as bad as these teachers' unions.

Fletch 27 · December 18, 2012

Cyber... You are simply a slave to the union. Simply a slave... One day, you too shall see the light.... And a paycheck that doesn't hold you down. Grow up

jacee · December 18, 2012

Why do the Ontario teachers simply picket and strike the ridings that are Liberal Riding? After all, the Teachers Union endorsed the Liberals provincially. Why would they dare come to Halton when halton rejected the Liberals and voted in Ted Chudleigh?. Does this make any sense or are they just out to impact every student and parent in Ontario regarless of political stripes?

Yes, that would make sense.

Mighty AC · December 18, 2012

Imagine the positive public support ETFO could have generated if they organized member pickets, next week on their own time.

Boges · December 18, 2012

Imagine the positive public support ETFO could have generated if they organized member pickets, next week on their own time.

It's clear, by their actions, that they aren't all that concerned with the public's perception of them.

Fletch 27 · December 18, 2012

HEADS UP! There is a "move" in Milton and Burlington to drop-off all of the garbage bags at any picket lines.. and... NOT in support of the teachers btw..

Boges · December 19, 2012

HEADS UP! There is a "move" in Milton and Burlington to drop-off all of the garbage bags at any picket lines.. and... NOT in support of the teachers btw..

I'm sure there's a reason they made Halton the last GTA Board to do this Strike. BTW these strikes aren't really doing anything. Come the end of the year a contract will still be imposed and since Daddy Dalton shut down the house, no one's around to change that law. And if Sandra Puppawhateverhernameis wins she's said she won't recall the house until she wins a seat. Who wants to guess that the teacher's will try to prevent that from happening?

jacee · December 19, 2012

HEADS UP! There is a "move" in Milton and Burlington to drop-off all of the garbage bags at any picket lines.. and... NOT in support of the teachers btw..

We'll let them know to expect you. :lol:

DFCaper · December 21, 2012

In interest of not starting another thread about teachers, I want to ask this question here. Am I correct in the sequence of events that got us here

McGuinty signs a fair contract with Teachers while times were OK. He then to screw whoever replaces him by making it auto renew when contract is over to guarantee another good contract for teachers
McGuinty pushes Ontario further down the tube Financially
Teachers Fund raise to get McGuinty back in, despite his poor track record dealing with everybody but them.
McGuinty & Teachers win! Thanks to teachers campaigns against Hudak, and because of… Hudak.
McGuinty has Study done as to what is needed to fix Ontario, but ignores what he needs to do and goes against the reports advice on attacking the Public service.
McGuinty takes Hard-line in negotiations with Teachers unions
Teachers unions upset, decide not to focus on getting a settlement, but wait till that automatically get a Great for the times contract.
Bill 115 is introduced to rebalance the power towards the government (In McGuinty fashion, terribly done)
Teachers now start serious negotiation… and actions, now that they cannot get the auto-renewal.
Teachers complain about democracy, and right to bargain in good faith, now that they are in the weakened condition.

This is how I remember it. Not sure where I am wrong, but figure the teachers can’t be as much in the wrong as I see. McGuinty usually does this in the wrong manner, even if for the right reasons, that everyone else are victims to his incompetence.

Boges · December 31, 2012

So tonight Bill 115 can be imposed. What will the teacher's do in response? More strikes?

I think there are certain Liberal leadership candidates that have no will to fight with the teacher. (COUGH! Gerrard Kennedy)

The teachers should probably hold off to see what the new leader does. Andrea Horvath has said she doesn't want to force an election at the earliest chance so we could be stuck with this crappy party for a few months to come.

Sandra Pupatello has said that, if she wins, she won't bring back the house until she has a seat. John Tory lost a by-election when trying to parachute into a "safe-riding" after losing his race in 2007. There are no guarantees she can win a seat this spring, so we could see, up to if not more than, 6 months without anything happening at Queen's Park.

GREAT JOB LIBERALS!!!

Edited December 31, 2012 by Boges

MiddleClassCentrist · December 31, 2012

In interest of not starting another thread about teachers, I want to ask this question here. Am I correct in the sequence of events that got us here

McGuinty signs a fair contract with Teachers while times were OK. He then to screw whoever replaces him by making it auto renew when contract is over to guarantee another good contract for teachers

McGuinty pushes Ontario further down the tube Financially

Teachers Fund raise to get McGuinty back in, despite his poor track record dealing with everybody but them.

McGuinty & Teachers win! Thanks to teachers campaigns against Hudak, and because of… Hudak.

McGuinty has Study done as to what is needed to fix Ontario, but ignores what he needs to do and goes against the reports advice on attacking the Public service.

McGuinty takes Hard-line in negotiations with Teachers unions

Teachers unions upset, decide not to focus on getting a settlement, but wait till that automatically get a Great for the times contract.

Bill 115 is introduced to rebalance the power towards the government (In McGuinty fashion, terribly done)

Teachers now start serious negotiation… and actions, now that they cannot get the auto-renewal.

Teachers complain about democracy, and right to bargain in good faith, now that they are in the weakened condition.

This is how I remember it. Not sure where I am wrong, but figure the teachers can’t be as much in the wrong as I see. McGuinty usually does this in the wrong manner, even if for the right reasons, that everyone else are victims to his incompetence.

Your understanding is spotty.

Teachers lazily awaiting automatically getting a new contract isn't true, in good faith bargaining it is assumed that the previous deal you made was in good faith and fair. Therefore, while bargaining a new contract, the old one will apply until a new one is reached. That's just the law. After a few weeks, the government could have locked teachers out and imposed a contract. This would have been over already with imposed contracts at the start of the year but, the government looks really bad for locking out teachers so they choose a poorly worded, long and drawn out legislation.

Boges · December 31, 2012

Your understanding is spotty.

Teachers lazily awaiting automatically getting a new contract isn't true, in good faith bargaining it is assumed that the previous deal you made was in good faith and fair. Therefore, while bargaining a new contract, the old one will apply until a new one is reached. That's just the law. After a few weeks, the government could have locked teachers out and imposed a contract. This would have been over already with imposed contracts at the start of the year but, the government looks really bad for locking out teachers so they choose a poorly worded, long and drawn out legislation.

What incentive do the teacher's have to make an agreement (if the previous one will be the one gone with until a deal is ultimatly reached) when the employer is demanding types of concessions not seen since the Harris days? Locking teachers out would have also closed the schools, that's not something anyone in the province would have wanted.

MiddleClassCentrist · December 31, 2012

So tonight Bill 115 can be imposed. What will the teacher's do in response? More strikes?

I think there are certain Liberal leadership candidates that have no will to fight with the teacher. (COUGH! Gerrard Kennedy)

The teachers should probably hold off to see what the new leader does. Andrea Horvath has said she doesn't want to force an election at the earliest chance so we could be stuck with this crappy party for a few months to come.

Sandra Pupatello has said that, if she wins, she won't bring back the house until she has a seat. John Tory lost a by-election when trying to parachute into a "safe-riding" after losing his race in 2007. There are no guarantees she can win a seat this spring, so we could see, up to if not more than, 6 months without anything happening at Queen's Park.

GREAT JOB LIBERALS!!!

Why, may I ask, do we need to target teachers? I know it is the PC party mantra. "Make them work for dirt, and give them more work until all of them are burnt out".

Teachers agreed to a wage freeze. The tentative deals made by OSSTF have wage freezes in them. All teachers are asking for is the SAME type of agreement as was given to other public unions. A freeze without strips.

If the Government had balls, it would actually impose the terms it is targeting teachers with on EVERYONE in the public sector. Not just try to make teachers out to be the lackeys who need a rough alignment. If the Government did that... and didn't pick and choose who got a good deal (OPP, College Professors, Firefighters) Teachers would be on board. They already agreed to the same terms that the college teachers did. OSSTF had tentative agreements negotiated with local boards that were rejected, or altered by Broten (Why? Both the boards and teachers agreed to cuts like the OECTA MoU just pushed around a bit. is she nuts?) That is why we are where we are right now.

Yet you want to stick it to the teachers...

Edited December 31, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

MiddleClassCentrist · December 31, 2012

What incentive do the teacher's have to make an agreement (if the previous one will be the one gone with until a deal is ultimatly reached) when the employer is demanding types of concessions not seen since the Harris days? Locking teachers out would have also closed the schools, that's not something anyone in the province would have wanted.

How often, in any sector, has a new contract been negotiated before the stress of not having a contract is applied?

The most teachers could have been under the old contract was 3 weeks, if the province locked them out and imposed a contract. Yeah, I'm sure they were really holding out for a mere 3 weeks of the old contract . I don't know where you get your information but, it's missing key labour process facts.

Boges · December 31, 2012

Stick it to the teachers? In the post you were citing I was more critical of the Liberals than I was the teachers

A wage freeze when automatic grid raises are still in-play isn't a wage freeze. Banking sick days is archaic, no one gets that in the private sector. Shame on the previous governments that gave them that benefit. But it's a problem that needs to be fixed.

Teacher's aren't working for dirt and no one is proposing they should work for dirt. But when everyone else in the private sector were being forced to take furlough's or worse, the teachers were receiving double-digit raises from this idiotic premier. The province is broke and needs to cut spending somehow.

I agree this legislation should be imposed on all public servants. That's what the PCs would do. It's all the more reason this government is horrible, they're using this fight with teachers as a trial run on future fights with other unions.

But since, un-related scandals, have forced the Premiere to take his ball and go home, none of those fights will happen until after another election.

I fully understand why the teachers are mad. I simply have no sympathy for them because this government has given them everything they wanted up until now.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Boges

Boges · December 31, 2012

How often, in any sector, has a new contract been negotiated before the stress of not having a contract is applied?

The most teachers could have been under the old contract was 3 weeks, if the province locked them out and imposed a contract. Yeah, I'm sure they were really holding out for a mere 3 weeks of the old contract . I don't know where you get your information but, it's missing key labour process facts.

But this legislation has allowed them not to lock the teacher's out for any weeks. And it gives them the power to stop any future strikes. This isn't the NHL, teacher's do provide a service that many people in the province rely on. But that doesn't mean they should have the right to hold people in Ontario hostage. The teachers are challenging Bill 115 in court. Until that case is heard there really isn't anything (other than Work to Rule) that teacher's can do until then. Unless the NDP win a future election or the new Liberal leader goes back on Bill 115.

MiddleClassCentrist · December 31, 2012

But this legislation has allowed them not to lock the teacher's out for any weeks. And it gives them the power to stop any future strikes. This isn't the NHL, teacher's do provide a service that many people in the province rely on. But that doesn't mean they should have the right to hold people in Ontario hostage. The teachers are challenging Bill 115 in court. Until that case is heard there really isn't anything (other than Work to Rule) that teacher's can do until then. Unless the NDP win a future election or the new Liberal leader goes back on Bill 115.

Make them essential then... oh wait... that means arbitrators might give them more favourable deals.

Only <15%(ish, was a forum poll) said that they have been inconvenienced by the teacher strikes. Holding hostage? Give me a break.

If you think that Bill 115 prevents job action, you have been misled. Teachers can still walk off the job en masse. Political action can't be declared illegal, as Mike Harris found out. You can stop a strike, but you can't stop protest against government. Unless conservatives really want us to be more totalitarian and less democratic.

All Bill 115 does is give the Minister of Education power to do whatever the hell he/she wants without asking legislature for approval... who the F would want that? It also prevents or restrict teachers from challenging any implementation of the bill in court, or against the humans rights code and constitution. The only route the teachers have been left with is job action, and charter violation.

Would any good legislation require that it's implementation be immune from constitutional challenge or vetting against human rights code?

Edited December 31, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

Boges · December 31, 2012

Would any good legislation require that it's implementation be immune from constitutional challenge or vetting against human rights code?

But the teacher's not challenging Bill 115 in court already? Bill 115 was brought before the house and passed. Sounds pretty democratic to me.

MiddleClassCentrist · December 31, 2012

But the teacher's not challenging Bill 115 in court already? Bill 115 was brought before the house and passed. Sounds pretty democratic to me.

Teachers are challenging the bill in court, yes. But the Bill itself and the implementation of the bill are two different beasts. Normally you could fight implementation/abuse of legislation, this takes away those rights.

In other words, all actions that come as a result of the bill are not to be challenged in any way. The MoE can violate all of the human rights code and suffer no consequence, take away constitutional rights of teachers and suffer no consequence as the Ontario Labour Board is not allowed to expedite the process. IT's been worded to make this a fight that will continue to be around for years. My teacher friends said their union reps estimate 5-7 years with the possibility for longer in the appeal process of the Bill itself... only once the Bill itself is declared a violation charter rights, can the other stuff be dug back up and challenged.

I should add, even the OECTA MoU still gives young teachers 3/4's grid movement over 2 years. OSSTF improved on the OECTA deal (subjectively improved). The only reason some teacher locals voted down the tentative agreements is because that bill exists. We can easily go back to labour peace with a substantively identical freeze on secondary and catholic teachers without Bill 115.

That being said, I don't even know what would please elementary teachers... They are such a militant union... but they have the most to lose. Secondary has more people with in demand qualifications and job experience outside of teaching (Engineering, Maths, Business, Technology, Science) so they seem to be more sensible.