Guest Derek L Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 Why are you continuing with this argument? You know very well that the problem is not the F-35 itself but rather the Conservatives wanting the F-35. It is irrelevant to this argument wether it is the best aircraft for us or not, what is relevant is that most of the people opposing the aircraft purchase don't care about getting the best bang for our buck or the quality and abilities of the aircraft but rather they care about the politics, if the Conservatives started favouring Super Hornet or whichever other aircraft the opposition will oppose the choice on political grounds not technical. Oh, I know………Nothing good on tv tonight I guess……….. In all seriousness, I feel a certain affinity towards the fast air community, after witnessing firsthand similar treatment towards my own nearly twenty years ago Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 And what happens if all your eggs are in the f35 basket and there is a flaw like a faulty engine design, or flight systems not being as reliable as stated? We would be in the same basket as the US which means it will be solved pretty fast... Seeing as this will be the backbone of the US Military and any problem that develops will be fixed pretty quickly... Can't imagine the US buying 2400 F-35's and then not fixing any problems should they arise which means that when they fix the problem they fix it for us as well... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
shortlived Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 We would be in the same basket as the US which means it will be solved pretty fast... Seeing as this will be the backbone of the US Military and any problem that develops will be fixed pretty quickly... Can't imagine the US buying 2400 F-35's and then not fixing any problems should they arise which means that when they fix the problem they fix it for us as well... Solved for how much? Quote My posts are sometimes edited to create spelling errors if you see one kindly notify me. These edits do not show up as edits as my own edits do, so it is either site moderation, or third party moderation. This includes changing words completely. If a word looks out of place in a message kindly contact me so I can correct it. These changes are not exclusive to this website, and is either a form of net stalking by a malicious hacker, or perhaps government, it has been ongoing for years now.
Guest Derek L Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 We would be in the same basket as the US which means it will be solved pretty fast... Seeing as this will be the backbone of the US Military and any problem that develops will be fixed pretty quickly... Can't imagine the US buying 2400 F-35's and then not fixing any problems should they arise which means that when they fix the problem they fix it for us as well... We were never burned by having all our eggs in the Hornet basket………Our fault was that we let them wither into obsolesce……. Quote
shortlived Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 This is exactly why Canada shouldn't jump in with purchases until the plane is demonstrated. This is exactly why I advocate for a CF-18 the CF-Arrow II variant that is made entirely in Canada, as well as the Rafale jets for passing in Quebec and the east coast, as well as eventually f35s (in reduced numbers) if they are a reliable and jet. Quote My posts are sometimes edited to create spelling errors if you see one kindly notify me. These edits do not show up as edits as my own edits do, so it is either site moderation, or third party moderation. This includes changing words completely. If a word looks out of place in a message kindly contact me so I can correct it. These changes are not exclusive to this website, and is either a form of net stalking by a malicious hacker, or perhaps government, it has been ongoing for years now.
shortlived Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) We were never burned by having all our eggs in the Hornet basket………Our fault was that we let them wither into obsolesce……. Canada had other jets in reserve when the cf-18 came into operation. The current CF18's are due to be beyond their service life before we will even get the f35s and crews competent. 2018 is less than 5 years away. If lockheed is going to dump in Canada needs to buy the jets in addition to being teir 3 to have contracts for production F-CK lockheed.. that is what the tier 3 dues are for there is no obligation to buy the things too... that is why Canada has paid in half a billion dollars into tier 3. Not to be forced to buy them to get tier 3 member rights. The procurement wouldn't even have all the jets on the table until 5 years after the cf18s are due for retirement. Edited March 7, 2013 by shortlived Quote My posts are sometimes edited to create spelling errors if you see one kindly notify me. These edits do not show up as edits as my own edits do, so it is either site moderation, or third party moderation. This includes changing words completely. If a word looks out of place in a message kindly contact me so I can correct it. These changes are not exclusive to this website, and is either a form of net stalking by a malicious hacker, or perhaps government, it has been ongoing for years now.
Signals.Cpl Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 We were never burned by having all our eggs in the Hornet basket………Our fault was that we let them wither into obsolesce……. I am not saying we were, my point is that putting all of our eggs with the F35 is a pretty safe bet because the US is purchasing the bulk of the F35s and this means if there are problems the solutions will be pretty quick... one could say almost Lightning fast... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Guest Derek L Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 I am not saying we were, my point is that putting all of our eggs with the F35 is a pretty safe bet because the US is purchasing the bulk of the F35s and this means if there are problems the solutions will be pretty quick... one could say almost Lightning fast... I'm not saying, you where saying such..........But William............. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 Canada had other jets in reserve when the cf-18 came into operation. Why doesn't Canada have any now ? Not Lock-Mart's fault.... The current CF18's are due to be beyond their service life before we will even get the f35s and crews competent. 2018 is less than 5 years away. Why did Canada wait so long? Other tactical aircraft have been available for over a decade. ...The procurement wouldn't even have all the jets on the table until 5 years after the cf18s are due for retirement. See above.....if the record for rotary winged aircraft procurements is any indicator, this will not end well for Canada. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guest Derek L Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 Why doesn't Canada have any now ? Not Lock-Mart's fault.... He’s referring to our Freedom Fighters…………They were only kept because our option on another squadrons worth of Hornets wasn’t exercised once the Wall came down………Once our Hornets from Germany returned home with our shrinking commitments (To the Northern Flank/Norway), they were surplus………We had a hard time giving them away……….They weren’t even fit, with far lower mileage, to replace our ancient T-33s in the EW training and utility roles…………The Trudeau Government forced them on the RCAF, in such numbers we didn’t know what to do with them all………Now if the Phantoms had of been built in Montreal………. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 He’s referring to our Freedom Fighters…………They were only kept because our option on another squadrons worth of Hornets wasn’t exercised once the Wall came down……… You mean there is no Davis-Monthan AFB equivalent in Canada ? No Air National Guard ? How about a few museum pieces? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guest Derek L Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 You mean there is no Davis-Monthan AFB equivalent in Canada ? No Air National Guard ? How about a few museum pieces? A tiny one, just outside CFB Trenton (Canadian Forces Detachment Mountain View)………They might have a handful of Tutors, Kiowa’s, T-33s and possibly Freedom Fighters………with moss growing on them. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 A tiny one, just outside CFB Trenton (Canadian Forces Detachment Mountain View)………They might have a handful of Tutors, Kiowa’s, T-33s and possibly Freedom Fighters………with moss growing on them. Well, it's good to know that somebody still cares ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GostHacked Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 I am not saying we were, my point is that putting all of our eggs with the F35 is a pretty safe bet because the US is purchasing the bulk of the F35s and this means if there are problems the solutions will be pretty quick... one could say almost Lightning fast... While we ever so patiently wait for that, why not buy a few Super Hornets in the meantime as a stop gap. Because these aircraft can be delivered tomorrow and we can use them right away! Those fixes are not coming fast enough. Quote
Guest Derek L Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 While we ever so patiently wait for that, why not buy a few Super Hornets in the meantime as a stop gap. Because these aircraft can be delivered tomorrow and we can use them right away! Those fixes are not coming fast enough. Money.........A mixed fleet, be it Hornets & Super Hornets, and eventually Super Hornets and F-35s is expensive......Hence why our current Hornets replaced several types....... Quote
Guest Derek L Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 Well, it's good to know that somebody still cares ! Yeah, well the Tutors are kept as a parts source for the Snowbirds..........The Kiowa's and any Freedom Fighters, god only knows why (Hedging scrap metal prices?) and the T-33s I think as an option if current contractor support doesn't pan out in the future.... Quote
shortlived Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Why doesn't Canada have any now ? Not Lock-Mart's fault.... I would hope this is the case. The government is stupid, much like many Canadians. Why did Canada wait so long? Other tactical aircraft have been available for over a decade. US is use to being under threat of attack cause lots of Americans are A-holes, comes with the territory to have a sidearm at ready. See above.....if the record for rotary winged aircraft procurements is any indicator, this will not end well for Canada. I agree. I don't know what the hell they are thinking there. Its like Canadians aim to mess things up as much as possible for themselves, Freaken wankers. Of course there were the days when Canada was a member of a defensive alliance called NATO, with no enemies other than gang bangers in third world countries. That all changed in 2001. Edited March 7, 2013 by shortlived Quote My posts are sometimes edited to create spelling errors if you see one kindly notify me. These edits do not show up as edits as my own edits do, so it is either site moderation, or third party moderation. This includes changing words completely. If a word looks out of place in a message kindly contact me so I can correct it. These changes are not exclusive to this website, and is either a form of net stalking by a malicious hacker, or perhaps government, it has been ongoing for years now.
waldo Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 A leaked report citing data from last year? Too big a head rest? And since last year, said aircraft have entered service with the USAF and USMC………… entered service??? Pre-production aircraft... entered service!!! last year? As in mid-November of last year? What else could a die-hard cheerleader, like you, do but take that official scathing leaked report from the Pentagon's DOT&E and trivialize it down to nothing more than a, "head rest" problem! Cheer on buddy, cheer on! of course, that leaked detailed report was specifically scrutinizing the F-35A, Canada's targeted version, most particularly its 'Operational Utility Evaluation', under a training proviso. Since most of the critical review of JSFail invariably targets the 'B' and 'C' versions, seeing this critique of the 'A' version was quite revealing. But really, it's simply lower-level detail that reflects upon the official annual report from the Pentagon's DOT&E, the most recent 2012 report that came forward just a couple of months back in late January. Bottom line is the leaked report reinforces the current state of the F-35A... that even after a decade+, given the immaturity of the plane, training can only be undertaken under the most limiting constraints. For all intents and purposes there is no value to be realized in training at this point. More pointedly, the only real value is to fuel the program's/LockMart propaganda machine. Granted, there has been some progress made... the program has jumped 'leaps and bounds' beyond this fake, trumped up plane used by HarperConservatives for its staged F-35 "photo-ops"! Quote
waldo Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 yes... you are distracting and deflecting - as you quite regularly do! Are you disputing the DND rep quote advising of the need to replace the CT-155 to facilitate F-35 training requirements? Care to point out what part of the NFTC agreement puts the cost onus completely and solely on Bombardier to upgrade? The part where they supply aircraft, instructors and maintenance........ that part, hey? Well, go figure... one wonders why it's 'DoD sources' being quoted, rather tha contractor - Bombardier. I look forward to more than your personal say on this... you can back it up, right? It certainly would be quite revealing to see a contractor on the hook for ancillary costs separate from, but dictated by, the F-35 purchase. You speak with such authority - I'm sure you can back it up, right? Quote
waldo Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 Why are you continuing with this argument? You know very well that the problem is not the F-35 itself but rather the Conservatives wanting the F-35. It is irrelevant to this argument wether it is the best aircraft for us or not, what is relevant is that most of the people opposing the aircraft purchase don't care about getting the best bang for our buck or the quality and abilities of the aircraft but rather they care about the politics, if the Conservatives started favouring Super Hornet or whichever other aircraft the opposition will oppose the choice on political grounds not technical. best bang for the buck!!! Good to read we have another guy who gets all warm & fuzzy over a paper airplane... another guy with an open blank cheque waiting to sign-off on vapour-ware. 'Quality and abilities' of the aircraft? Really? You mean... the propaganda machine? Given full operational testing isn't slated to complete, most optimistically, until 2019, you're quite the advocate for JSFail/LockMart "promises", hey? I mean, c'mon... why would you look at a failed decade+ history of 'exorbitant over costing, significant under delivery, and mega over-hype' - why would you do that, when you can so easily trivialize/marginalize challenge as being nothing more than politically partisan inspired criticism. Thanks for coming out! Quote
waldo Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 We would be in the same basket as the US which means it will be solved pretty fast... Seeing as this will be the backbone of the US Military and any problem that develops will be fixed pretty quickly... . "solved pretty fast"... "fixed pretty quickly"!!! Like I said, thanks for coming out! Quote
waldo Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 Money.........A mixed fleet, be it Hornets & Super Hornets, and eventually Super Hornets and F-35s is expensive......apparently not so expensive to the Australians, hey? Most of the analysis I've read seems to now concede that their latest intended Super-Hornet purchase, extending upon their original Super-Hornet purchase, has effectively halved the initial expressed intent to purchase 100 F-35s... and that's the optimistic analysis that still holds out for the F-35 actually being able to make a go of it. The Australians simply gave up on the continued F-35 cost increases, delays and problem revelations. Given their interest in UAVs, that mixed fleet you speak of is more than likely to be dominated with a mix of Super-Hornets and UAVs. Quote
waldo Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 oh my! Reduced F-35 performance specifications may have significant operational impact The US Department of Defense's decision to relax the sustained turn performance of all three variants of the F-35 was revealed earlier this month in the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation 2012 report. Turn performance for the US Air Force's F-35A was reduced from 5.3 sustained g's to 4.6 sustained g's. The F-35B had its sustained g's cut from five to 4.5 g's, while the US Navy variant had its turn performance truncated from 5.1 to five sustained g's. Acceleration times from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2 were extended by eight seconds, 16 seconds and 43 seconds for the A, B and C-models respectively. The baseline standard used for the comparison was a clean Lockheed F-16 Block 50 with two wingtip Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAMs. "What an embarrassment, and there will be obvious tactical implications. Having a maximum sustained turn performance of less than 5g is the equivalent of an [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 or an [Northrop] F-5," another highly experienced fighter pilot says. "[it's] certainly not anywhere near the performance of most fourth and fifth-generation aircraft.". .Pilots will have to make extensive use of the F-35's stealth characteristics and sensors to compensate for performance areas where the jet has weaknesses, sources familiar with the aircraft say. But engagement zones and maneuvering ranges will most likely be driven even further out against the most dangerous surface-to-air threats. Quote
shortlived Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) oh my! Reduced F-35 performance specifications may have significant operational impact I bet Russia and Chinas 5th gens (note china apparently stole all of the US's 5th gen techs....) are going to cost less. Wouldn't it make sense to save billions on buying Chinese... How does the Chengdu 20 stack up or the PAKF ? http://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/01/comparing-chengdu-j-20-with-f-22-f-35-and-su-pak-fa-or-t-50.html The J20 looks sorta familiar... maybe we can get in as an industrial partner with them... http://www.defenceaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/chinese_stealth_fighter-300x109.jpg This line wins it Although J-20 appears as a better stealth aircraft than the rest, .... What is the cost per J20? Its seems Chinas total defence spending is less than the JSF program cost I GOT IT, I KNOW HOW TO SAVE THE F35 PROGRAM!!!! OUTSOURCING! Edited March 7, 2013 by shortlived Quote My posts are sometimes edited to create spelling errors if you see one kindly notify me. These edits do not show up as edits as my own edits do, so it is either site moderation, or third party moderation. This includes changing words completely. If a word looks out of place in a message kindly contact me so I can correct it. These changes are not exclusive to this website, and is either a form of net stalking by a malicious hacker, or perhaps government, it has been ongoing for years now.
Signals.Cpl Posted March 7, 2013 Report Posted March 7, 2013 While we ever so patiently wait for that, why not buy a few Super Hornets in the meantime as a stop gap. Because these aircraft can be delivered tomorrow and we can use them right away! Those fixes are not coming fast enough. And the opposition will have a field day if the government announces we are buying an aircraft until we can get the F35's. This would just mean we will never get the F35's simply because people will point out that we got our new fighters and do not need others. Better keep our CF-18s so that there is at least some sense of urgency Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
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