ReeferMadness Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 They sacrificed agility to try and achieve stealth, and that has already been cracked, so you end up with an unstealthy plane that can't turn, climb, or run. Oops! It's funny you say that. There is a quote from the Rand Corporation that says exactly that about the butterball: can't turn, can't climb, can't run. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 So much money has been sunk into it that nobody in the US in a position of authority has the guts to call it out. Right, somehow, several prolific critics of defense spending, aided by bloggers, somehow know the program to be a failure, yet the armed forces and aerospace industries of numerous Western nations have been grifted by Lockheed...... Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 ...But it needs to be addressed. As expensive as it will be to cut everyone's losses (especially for Lockmarts shareholders), that's still the right decision. Then start a new topic, as this one is about replacements for CF-18s. Unlike Canada, the Americans are not afraid to spend money. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 Forgive my ignorance but don't we have radar stations up there already? ETA: whatever happened to the DEW line? We sure do (I worked for the company that maintains them). DEW was replaced by the North Warning System, in largely the same sites........having spent most of last Fall in Kitikmeot, I can attest to the limitations of communications in the North. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) Right, somehow, several prolific critics of defense spending, aided by bloggers, somehow know the program to be a failure, yet the armed forces and aerospace industries of numerous Western nations have been grifted by Lockheed...... Oh, you mean like the Rand Corporation? As a defence system, it's a failure. As a mechanism for spreading money, it's a huge success. Lockmart has designed the perfect vehicle to soak up budgets. And they have US heavyweights running around twisting arms for them. The emperor has no clothes. Edited December 3, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 We sure do (I worked for the company that maintains them). DEW was replaced by the North Warning System, in largely the same sites........having spent most of last Fall in Kitikmeot, I can attest to the limitations of communications in the North. We must have some way of communicating with the radar stations. Otherwise, they'd be kind of useless. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) ...The emperor has no clothes. But he has plenty of new aircraft (and ships), unlike Canada. Edited December 3, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 As a defence system, it's a failure. As a mechanism for spreading money, it's a huge success. Lockmart has designed the perfect vehicle to soak up budgets. And they have US heavyweights running around twisting arms for them. The emperor has no clothes. So why aren't said partner nations dropping it and going for your suggested, all singing and all dancing, Gripen? Why have countries like Japan and South Korea, joined the program after competitions with the cited alternatives? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 We must have some way of communicating with the radar stations. Otherwise, they'd be kind of useless. We do, limited satellite coverage that conveys all communications in the North, even further restricted in a good blow......which happens once and while up there.........No Bandwidth, no Arctic UAVs. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 So why aren't said partner nations dropping it and going for your suggested, all singing and all dancing, Gripen? Why have countries like Japan and South Korea, joined the program after competitions with the cited alternatives? Probably for the same reason that Harper's conservatives were all in. They valued being a junior partner with the US Military above all else. I note that a number of air forces with lower military budgets and less close ties to the US are buying the Gripen after a competition. And I never said the Gripen was all singing or all dancing. Just that it seemed to be a much less compromised design that is better suited to Canada's conditions. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 We do, limited satellite coverage that conveys all communications in the North, even further restricted in a good blow......which happens once and while up there.........No Bandwidth, no Arctic UAVs. Well, it might be worth improving that. In 2015, we ought to be able to communicate with the north without having to rely on satellites. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) Gripens are nice....lots of U.S. and U.K. content. These are Toyota Corollas for those on a limited strike fighter budget. Edited December 3, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 Probably for the same reason that Harper's conservatives were all in. They valued being a junior partner with the US Military above all else. Riiight...... I note that a number of air forces with lower military budgets and less close ties to the US are buying the Gripen after a competition. And I never said the Gripen was all singing or all dancing. Just that it seemed to be a much less compromised design that is better suited to Canada's conditions. Sure competitions where the F-35 wasn't offered.........and by "a number", do you mean two? (Sweden and Brazil). Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 Well, it might be worth improving that. In 2015, we ought to be able to communicate with the north without having to rely on satellites. Sure, I don't disagree, but who is going to pay the billions to do it? Presently, the number of manned (civilian and military) aircraft that are able to operate in the Arctic are very limited..............I think concentrating on ensuring a single sweet potato doesn't cost $17 or a can of Coke $7 are far more pressing issues than developing the required level of reliable communications to allow the operation of a nonexistent UCAV. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 Then start a new topic, as this one is about replacements for CF-18s. Unlike Canada, the Americans are not afraid to spend money. Or waste money it seems. Quote
Smallc Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 I think evidence shows that Americans are afraid to spend money on simple government operation. Canada - not so much. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 I think evidence shows that Americans are afraid to spend money on simple government operation. Canada - not so much. It is more complicated when the Americans spend more to develop the weapon systems that Canada cannot afford, or maintain the reserve capacity to tow Canada's broke dick ships back to port, or provide free rides to Canadian Forces hitch hikers. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 And yet you can't keep the lights on - priorities, eh? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 And yet you can't keep the lights on - priorities, eh? Keeping the lights on in Ontario is now a major scandal...while jobs leave. Why can't Canada build its own CF-18 replacement with all that expensive green energy? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 Canada isn't large enough to fund its own fighter replacement - at least not credibly. I'm sure someone else will provide a product that is within our budget. We won't even have to shut the government down or raise any mythical debt ceiling in the process. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 Canada isn't large enough to fund its own fighter replacement - at least not credibly. Canada isn't as large as Sweden, which credibly produces one candidate replacement "jet" (Gripen) ? Your response is not credible...something else must be at work here. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted December 3, 2015 Report Posted December 3, 2015 Sure, I don't disagree, but who is going to pay the billions to do it? Presently, the numb er of manned (civilian and military) aircraft that are able to operate in the Arctic are very limited..............I think concentrating on ensuring a single sweet potato doesn't cost $17 or a can of Coke $7 are far more pressing issues than developing the required level of reliable communications to allow the operation of a nonexistent UCAV. Hmmm... It's actually better than I thought it would be. The larger centres already have fibre connections. It seems kind of fragile to have our access to our northern defence radar dependent on satellites, which are vulnerable. I think that they should expand the fibre and microwave access both to the northern radar stations and to communities. It might cost billions to wire the whole north but not just for the radar stations. Oh... and your report mentions UAV's. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Canada isn't as large as Sweden, which credibly produces one candidate replacement "jet" (Gripen) ? Your response is not credible...something else must be at work here. Canadians are cheap - we just don't like to shut the government down. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Hmmm... It's actually better than I thought it would be. The larger centres already have fibre connections. The large centers (see Yellowknife) that are connected, via roads, to the South do........that does little for the actual communities within the Arctic circle. It seems kind of fragile to have our access to our northern defence radar dependent on satellites, which are vulnerable. I think that they should expand the fibre and microwave access both to the northern radar stations and to communities. It might cost billions to wire the whole north but not just for the radar stations. They aren't dependent on satellites, as they have HF radio back-ups. And it would cost billions, upon billions, to build a fibre optic/microwave network, and then billions more to maintain it year round.......and to allow a capability so those in the Arctic might be able to watch Youtube videos (weather depending)........ Oh... and your report mentions UAV's. I know, and since said report, DND has attempted to operate smaller UAVs in the Arctic, near line of sight, slightly more complex than a remote controlled model airplane.......coupled with the RCAF putting its own program, JUSTAS, on ice and very quickly rejecting the sub component from it for unmanned Arctic surveillance.......which, IIRC, was for less than half a dozen heavily modified versions of the Global Hawk (dubbed Polar Hawk), based off of one Global Hawk used by NASA for Antarctic research, which makes use of the Iridium network (Satellite phone provider) for command and control in the polar regions........ If you've ever used a Satellite phone, you'll know they are very expensive to operate, and this reflected in the estimated price of the program, which would have seen each UAV/ground station/support costs equating to $300-400 million per UAV....... Edited December 4, 2015 by Derek 2.0 Quote
ReeferMadness Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 The large centers (see Yellowknife) that are connected, via roads, to the South do........that does little for the actual communities within the Arctic circle. They aren't dependent on satellites, as they have HF radio back-ups. And it would cost billions, upon billions, to build a fibre optic/microwave network, and then billions more to maintain it year round.......and to allow a capability so those in the Arctic might be able to watch Youtube videos (weather depending)........ I know, and since said report, DND has attempted to operate smaller UAVs in the Arctic, near line of sight, slightly more complex than a remote controlled model airplane.......coupled with the RCAF putting its own program, JUSTAS, on ice and very quickly rejecting the sub component from it for unmanned Arctic surveillance.......which, IIRC, was for less than half a dozen heavily modified versions of the Global Hawk (dubbed Polar Hawk), based off of one Global Hawk used by NASA for Antarctic research, which makes use of the Iridium network (Satellite phone provider) for command and control in the polar regions........ If you've ever used a Satellite phone, you'll know they are very expensive to operate, and this reflected in the estimated price of the program, which would have seen each UAV/ground station/support costs equating to $300-400 million per UAV....... I think improvements should be made over a period of time with the first focus being connecting up the radar stations. Satellite/high frequency radio seems pretty hokey to me. They're building an all weather road as far north as Tuktoyaktuk. I hope they are laying fibre as they do it. It will cost money but if they are smart and do it over time, it needn't be billions (or at least it will be spread over years). As you said, satellite comms are horribly expensive and the costs could be defrayed over time. Does Alert have an airfield where a Gripen could land? They could base the operator there and run patrols in the high arctic. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
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