F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[bush_cheney2004]

...Something one would hope would be examined, yet again, with replacing our current Hornets.

It will be fun to watch the procurement reset, requirements definition, labour offsets, DND budget infighting, loss of F-35 contracts, etc.

Back to the 70's !

[Derek 2.0]

It will be fun to watch the procurement reset, requirements definition, labour offsets, DND budget infighting, loss of F-35 contracts, etc.

Back to the 70's !

Or back to the 90s and the promise of no "Cadillac 'elicopters"......in the end, we'll end up paying more (through life costs) for a substandard aircraft due to a cheap electioneering promise, that should insult the intelligence of anyone with grey mater between their ears.........to conjure the meme of "first strike stealth capability" is truly dishonest, as all current alternatives have been used as "first strike" aircraft, but more importantly, the aircraft itself, nor those that fly them, elect to launch a first strike.......a political decision.

Trudeau's abuse of the English language is no different than any other form of political opportunism.........and will only result in our men and women in the RCAF operating an aircraft designed in the 70s or 80s out to the 2060s, which would be akin to the RCAF, today, flying aircraft that it operated in the 1940s:

My point still stands, if we're not willing to invest in a modern fighter force, for what appears solely political reasons, we should save the 10s of billions to be wasted and go the route of New Zealand, and retire the capability.

[Wilber]

You aren't wanting us to buy Typhoons now are you?

[Derek 2.0]

You aren't wanting us to buy Typhoons now are you?

Not the least, and I don't know how the current Government could justify spending more money on the older Eurofighter Typhoon then the F-35.........The only way this Government purchases an aircraft that costs more than the F-35, is if it buys used or reduces the total number of aircraft to be purchased.

Furthermore, if one is to assume it purchases a slightly cheaper legacy type like the Super Hornet or the F-16 (It won't purchase a single engine type though, since our collective dinks would fall off), which might currently cost 15-20% less than a production F-35, that only translates into ~1-1.5 billion in savings from an overall, through life cost in the 40-45 billion range over 35-40 years of service. Nowhere near the billions needed to invest in the navy as promised........

Hence, absent the realization that the Liberals have no money budgeted for new fighters through 2020, the entire "promise" is smoke and mirrors.

[Wilber]

I just thought there might be something subliminal about you posting a photo of a Typhoon.

It was a "bomb truck" to.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Wilber

[Derek 2.0]

I just thought there might be something subliminal about you posting a photo of a Typhoon.

It was a "bomb truck" to.

Nah, no need to be subliminal, I think my position is clear

[ReeferMadness]

Not the least, and I don't know how the current Government could justify spending more money on the older Eurofighter Typhoon then the F-35.........The only way this Government purchases an aircraft that costs more than the F-35, is if it buys used or reduces the total number of aircraft to be purchased.

Furthermore, if one is to assume it purchases a slightly cheaper legacy type like the Super Hornet or the F-16 (It won't purchase a single engine type though, since our collective dinks would fall off), which might currently cost 15-20% less than a production F-35, that only translates into ~1-1.5 billion in savings from an overall, through life cost in the 40-45 billion range over 35-40 years of service. Nowhere near the billions needed to invest in the navy as promised........

Hence, absent the realization that the Liberals have no money budgeted for new fighters through 2020, the entire "promise" is smoke and mirrors.

If you don't think they're going to buy anything, why do you go on and on about this? Obviously, you've made up your mind that only the butterball bomb truck will do. We got that about 300 posts ago.

[Derek 2.0]

If you don't think they're going to buy anything, why do you go on and on about this? Obviously, you've made up your mind that only the butterball bomb truck will do. We got that about 300 posts ago.

Is this not a discussion forum? If you feel my discussing the Hornet replacement for the RCAF, in a thread on said topic, is against forum rules, by all means, report it......Until the moderation teams says otherwise, members such as myself, Wilber and BC2004 will continue to discuss this topical subject.......the last thread, spanned several years and hundreds of pages, perhaps we'll surpass that in this one, since, in my opinion, the present Government won't be resolving this topic anytime soon.

[Smallc]

Derek thinks, that he's proven that nothing will be bought. This, despite all of his points being proven wrong or questionable, as well as being in direct contradiction of the words of the sitting government. There's not much to discuss.

[Wilber]

Derek thinks, that he's proven that nothing will be bought. This, despite all of his points being proven wrong or questionable, as well as being in direct contradiction of the words of the sitting government. There's not much to discuss.

I'm with Derek when it comes to thinking the chance of a contract being signed before the end of this government's mandate is minimal.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Wilber

[Derek 2.0]

Derek thinks, that he's proven that nothing will be bought. This, despite all of his points being proven wrong or questionable, as well as being in direct contradiction of the words of the sitting government. There's not much to discuss.

You've yet to illustrate, from within the Liberals own Fiscal plan, where the current Government will obtain the money to purchase new fighters.......you've suggested they will find the funding from within the current GoC budget, but have yet to suggest where the GoC will find ~7-9 billion dollars.........

I might state that I'm going to buy a Gold House and a Rocket Car ( <--- words), but sans the means to fund said purchase, its just that.......words

[Smallc]

I'm with Derek when it comes to thinking the chance of a contract being signed before the end of this government's mandate is minimal.

That's fine, but it's based literally zero evidence.

[Wilber]

That's fine, but it's based literally zero evidence.

Other than where is the money going to come from, none at all. Add to that, what happened the last time a Liberal government cancelled a defence contract after an election promise, their credibility needs a lot of work.

[Derek 2.0]

That's fine, but it's based literally zero evidence.

Other than no money budgeted, a staff of three people and the previous Liberal Government taking a ~decade to decide on a Sea King replacement.

[Derek 2.0]

I'm with Derek when it comes to thinking the chance of a contract being signed before the end of this government's mandate is minimal.

Right, I would question if this Government will even select the FWSAR winner inside this mandate.

[Smallc]

Other than where is the money going to come from, none at all. Add to that, what happened the last time a Liberal government cancelled a defence contract after an election promise, their credibility needs a lot of work.

Does that mean that Harper was accepting envelopes stuffed with cash, just like Mulroney?

Further, the Liberals didn't cancel any contract. Not only did the Conservatives not sign any contract, but they actually closed the part of DND responsible for replacing the CF-18. That's why the Liberals had to open a new office. The fact that they did such within 2 weeks of taking office should speak volumes, but apparently you can't see past your mistrust.

Further - as I've already made clear with links to the DND procurement guide and the Canada First Defence Strategy, the government of Stephen Harper was expecting to take delivery of their first fighters somewhere between 2017 and 2018. That means that the money is available (i.e. has already been included in the procurement portion of the DND budget - no further appropriations necessary) somewhere in that time frame.

Further to that, Derek mocked the person put in charge of the office. Someone far more in the know about her position had this to say:

I appears to me, in appointing Paula Folkes-Dallaire to head a new (or reconfigured) office to oversee procurement, that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has taken a leaf from Prime Minister Harper's playbook: he will let the bureaucrats "break trail" and find a path out of the current mess and into something akin to "daylight."

Mme Folkes-Dallaire has the title (rank) of senior director ~ it may not sound like much but the last person with whom I dealt who had that title was the chief-of-staff to one of the most powerful deputy ministers in Ottawa and he, the senior director, dealt directly, with other, lesser, DMs and with ADMs as a near equal.

Mme Folkes-Dallaire has a solid résumé (her LinkedIn profile is down for refurbishment), she was a director general in her last job, and I'm 99.99% certain that she is well known as an able, politically sensitive manager with some experience at (successfully) handling difficult, complex and politically dangerous files.

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,120786.300.html

And that was from someone who doesn't even like Trudeau.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Smallc

[Derek 2.0]

Further to that, Derek mocked the person put in charge of the office. Someone far more in the know about her position had this to say:

So? The other person's opinion speaks to an experience with a person with the same title, not the actual person in charge of the office.........that is akin to saying Carter or Nixon were great Presidents because Reagan and FDR were....

----------

By all means though, provide us where the money is to come from......you've suggested the money will be found from within the current budget, by all means, expand on that.

[Wilber]

Further, the Liberals didn't cancel any contract. Not only did the Conservatives not sign any contract, but they actually closed the part of DND responsible for replacing the CF-18. That's why the Liberals had to open a new office. The fact that they did such within 2 weeks of taking office should speak volumes, but apparently you can't see past your mistrust.

True but the only difference is they won't have to pay 500 million to get out of one. Other than that it is the same story. We still haven't found our way out of the helicopter mess they put us in back in 93. Maybe they should start with that first. It was their turd.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Wilber

[Smallc]

True bit the only difference is they won't have to pay 500 million to get out of one. Other than that it is the same story. We still haven't found our way out of the helicopter mess they put us in back in 93. Maybe they should start with that first. It was their turd.

Last I checked, the Conservatives had fixed the helicopter contract. You say that Trudeau is canceling a contract. Harper, closing the office, did it all by himself quietly.

[Wilber]

Last I checked, the Conservatives had fixed the helicopter contract. You say that Trudeau is canceling a contract. Harper, closing the office, did it all by himself quietly.

The Conservatives had to try and fix the turd given them by the Liberals and it looks like it might not be possible. The Conservatives didn't spend 500 million cancelling a contract for 48 helicopters that were specifically designed as a Sea King replacement and try to do a one off conversion of a civilian helicopter for 28 machines ending up costing us about 2 billion more. 22 years later and we finally get 6 interim machines that still don't meet all their specs.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Wilber

[Smallc]

The Conservatives had to try and fix the turd given them by the Liberals and it looks like it might not be possible. The Conservatives didn't spend 500 million cancelling a contract for 48 helicopters that were specifically designed as a Sea King replacement and try to do a one off conversion of a civilian helicopter for 28 machines ending up costing us about 2 billion more.

That's a pretty inaccurate mischaracterization of the Cyclone. It shares a Shell with the S-92, but it's not a civilian conversion. We were simply the first customer, and it doesn't always go well. That seems like a good rationalization for dumping the F-35 as well. On the other hand, the Ch-148 is said to be the best in the world (it's already better than the machine it replaces in most respects - we'll soon have 8). It's simply taken a lot longer than we'd hoped. That, again, is an argument for a mature platform, like the Super Hornet.

[Wilber]

That's a pretty inaccurate mischaracterization of the Cyclone. It shares a Shell with the S-92, but it's not a civilian conversion. We were simply the first customer, and it doesn't always go well. That seems like a good rationalization for dumping the F-35 as well. On the other hand, the Ch-148 is said to be the best in the world (it's already better than the machine it replaces in most respects - we'll soon have 8). It's simply taken a lot longer than we'd hoped. That, again, is an argument for a mature platform, like the Super Hornet.

Really, who commissioned it and who else is buying it? I'll make it easy for you, us and nobody.

The EH 101 is presently operated by 13 countries including our Cormorants.

The CH-148 Saga.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/canadas-ch-148-cyclones-better-late-than-never-05223/

[Smallc]

Really, who commissioned it and who else is buying it? I'll make it easy for you, us and nobody.

The H-92 was put forward by Sikorsky. The product hasn't yet proven itself so it isn't likely to get many buyers for a while.

Still, there's this opinion of the product:

"The helicopter they've got now is going to be the best anywhere in the world. The software part isn't complete … but the air frame, controls, deck, pilot consoles and all that stuff is state of the art," Ken Hansen said Friday.

Hansen, former co-chair of the Maritime Studies Programme at the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont., said the Cyclones are "significantly better" than the Sea Kings they will replace. "They have a lot more power range, endurance and cabin space."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/ch-148-cyclones-delivered-to-halifax-airbase-1.3119737

Edited November 20, 2015 by Smallc

[Derek 2.0]

That's a pretty inaccurate mischaracterization of the Cyclone. It shares a Shell with the S-92, but it's not a civilian conversion. We were simply the first customer, and it doesn't always go well. That seems like a good rationalization for dumping the F-35 as well. On the other hand, the Ch-148 is said to be the best in the world (it's already better than the machine it replaces in most respects - we'll soon have 8). It's simply taken a lot longer than we'd hoped. That, again, is an argument for a mature platform, like the Super Hornet.

The S-92 was developed as a civilian helicopter, since the Blackhawk/Seahawk family wasn't certified for civil aviation...none the less, its a robust design. The issue was the underpowered engine, which was to be rectified by Sikorsky and GE in developing the new Marine 1 replacement (The Sea Kings that transport the President), in fairness to both our previous Governments and Sikorsky/GE, they couldn't have foreseen the Obama administration cancelling the program on entering office.

And its not an argument for a mature platform, but a platform in which we won't be stuck with additional development costs outside a fixed amount we agree to pay........like the F-35.

[Derek 2.0]

Really, who commissioned it and who else is buying it? I'll make it easy for you, us and nobody.

The EH 101 is presently operated by 13 countries including our Cormorants.

Without a doubt we should have purchased the EH-101 over 20 years ago, then again the AW101 when we selected the Cyclone.......but, much of the current issues/delays/cost have been associated with the mission system, which would have posed much the same issues if we had of selected the AW101 the second time around.......absent the AW101 being underpowered mind you.