Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 So the "Liberal document" will require any cheap solution regardless of "generation" ? This is all BS smoke and mirrors. By all means, since smallc refuses, have a once over of the Liberal Governments fiscal plan through 2019-2020 and highlight the funding for new fighters: https://www.liberal.ca/files/2015/09/The-Liberal-fiscal-plan-and-costing.pdf For the life of me, I can't find it.......can you? Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Long since dated, since the previous government never intended to procure the F-35 until it came into full-rate production in 2018-2019......hence no funding for said fighter.......... From the same document (though we know they underfunded the document starting a few years back - they did cut out the MPP aircraft and underfill staffing levels, leaving some room): New Major Fleet Replacements $20B 3 4% Fixed-wing Search ad Rescue Aircraft Destroyers and Frigates Maritime Patrol Aircraft Fighter Aircraft Land Combat Vehicles and Systems Seems like the money is supposed to be in the budget for us to make a choice and start receiving aircraft this decade. Edited November 17, 2015 by Smallc Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Oh..I get it...change in government....contracts cancelled....fees paid. Rinse and repeat...it is the Canadian way. There was never a contract. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 By all means, since smallc refuses, have a once over of the Liberal Governments fiscal plan through 2019-2020 and highlight the funding for new fighters: The money is within the DND budget. If it's not, you'll have to ask the Conservatives where it is, since it's supposed to be in the budget according to their Canada First Defence Strategy. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 All I see is another Trudeau selfie and lots of entitlements and new taxes...no money for F-18 bomb trucks. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 All I see is another Trudeau selfie and lots of entitlements and new taxes...no money for F-18 bomb trucks. You and Derek need glasses, apparently. I'm done with this merry-go-round. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 There was never a contract. I know that, just trying to model how Canada does things in general based on past contracts and cancellations. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 The money is within the DND budget. If it's not, you'll have to ask the Conservatives where it is, since it's supposed to be in the budget according to their Canada First Defence Strategy. Is that similar to the economic action plan I wonder? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) The money is within the DND budget. If it's not, you'll have to ask the Conservatives where it is, since it's supposed to be in the budget according to their Canada First Defence Strategy. Blame Harper !! ( I have this Canadian thing down pat.) Edited November 17, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Blame Harper !! ( I have this Canadian thing down pat.) Blame Harper !! ( I have this Canadian thing down pat.) That's about the funniest thing I've heard here in a long time. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 From the same document (though we know they underfunded the document starting a few years back - they did cut out the MPP aircraft and underfill staffing levels, leaving some room): New Major Fleet Replacements $20B 3 4% Fixed-wing Search ad Rescue Aircraft Destroyers and Frigates Maritime Patrol Aircraft Fighter Aircraft Land Combat Vehicles and Systems Seems like the money is supposed to be in the budget for us to make a choice and start receiving aircraft this decade. Why would the previous Government fund something they didn't intend to purchase until the end of the decade? Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Why would the previous Government fund something they didn't intend to purchase until the end of the decade? You'll have to ask them why they did. Presumably, it was though that we'd have an initial buy of 2 - 4 aircraft within the 2017 - 2018 timeline. That means that there is some money in the budget to begin receiving aircraft within the 2018 - 2019 timeline, whilst still renewing other fleets as planned. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 The money is within the DND budget. If it's not, you'll have to ask the Conservatives where it is, since it's supposed to be in the budget according to their Canada First Defence Strategy. No it isn't, the Tories wouldn't budget something they didn't intend to purchase until later this decade, hence there is no money in the present budget for fighters, nor do the Liberals intend to purchase fighters inside this mandate based on their own fiscal plan: https://www.liberal.ca/files/2015/09/The-Liberal-fiscal-plan-and-costing.pdf You can't blame Harper for not budgeting for your baseless claim........hence my point still stands, there will not be new fighters bought inside this mandate (based on the Liberal fiscal plan). Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 You can't blame Harper for not budgeting for your baseless claim........hence my point still stands, there will not be new fighters bought inside this mandate (based on the Liberal fiscal plan). You asked me to show you where they budgeted for it. I (quite clearly) did. You have a problem accepting facts that don't agree with your chosen argument. Others can take it as they will. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 No it isn't, the Tories wouldn't budget something they didn't intend to purchase until later this decade, hence there is no money in the present budget for fighters, nor do the Liberals intend to purchase fighters inside this mandate based on their own fiscal plan: https://www.liberal.ca/files/2015/09/The-Liberal-fiscal-plan-and-costing.pdf You can't blame Harper for not budgeting for your baseless claim........hence my point still stands, there will not be new fighters bought inside this mandate (based on the Liberal fiscal plan). Harper pissed all the money away. So yes you are right, there is no money for new planes. But hey, gas is a bit cheaper. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Harper pissed all the money away. So yes you are right, there is no money for new planes. But hey, gas is a bit cheaper. There is money in the budget for procurement. Harper actually didn't spend all of the budgeted money, meaning that we have lost some buying power. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 You'll have to ask them why they did. Presumably, it was though that we'd have an initial buy of 2 - 4 aircraft within the 2017 - 2018 timeline. That means that there is some money in the budget to begin receiving aircraft within the 2018 - 2019 timeline, whilst still renewing other fleets as planned. Source? The previous Government didn't intend to purchase any F-35s until the aircraft was in full production in 2018-2019, they did budget last year, several hundred million to life extended the Hornets to the middle 2020s, but that doesn't equate to your baseless claim that there is money, somewhere, hidden, for new fighters. Based on the present Governments fiscal plan, there is no planned funding for a Hornet replacement inside this mandate, until that changes, the Liberals will not be purchasing new fighters with no money. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 There is money in the budget for procurement. Harper actually didn't spend all of the budgeted money, meaning that we have lost some buying power. Seems to me there was a lot of smoke and mirrors. But of course that wouldn't be the first time. I want to give the current gov a chance to get their plan going. I'll be happy to be harsh with them as well if they go down the same road as the previous. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Source? I provided you with the source - the current framework under which DND is operating. You don't want to accept it. Fine. There's no point having this conversation, as usual. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) There is money in the budget for procurement. Harper actually didn't spend all of the budgeted money, meaning that we have lost some buying power. Huh ? You don't spend budget...you spend expenditure appropriations from Parliament. Show us the money (please) ! Edited November 17, 2015 by Charles Anthony Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 You asked me to show you where they budgeted for it. I (quite clearly) did. You have a problem accepting facts that don't agree with your chosen argument. Others can take it as they will. No, you provided a dated document, that doesn't support what you claim.........why would any Government set aside billions of dollars in its budget (which it didn't), when it didn't intend to purchase new aircraft until the end of the decade. You can't support your claim, nor does the new Liberal Government's very own fiscal plan include funding for fighters.........hence you are clearly wrong. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I'll be happy to be harsh with them as well if they go down the same road as the previous. I will be too. I was very encouraged by Conservative language towards defence early on. Post 2008, they did nothing but disappoint. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Huh ? You don't spend budget...you spend expenditure appropriations from Parliament. Based on and made possible by the budget bill. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Based on and made possible by the budget bill. So where is the appropriation for new aircraft ? Is it just a big DND gift card ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I provided you with the source - the current framework under which DND is operating. You don't want to accept it. Fine. There's no point having this conversation, as usual. No you didn't......in what fiscal years did the previous Tory Government start funding the F-35? And by all means, when you can't answer that, highlight the new Governments new fiscal plan and the passage that funds the new fighter Here is the fiscal plan in case you missed it: https://www.liberal.ca/files/2015/09/The-Liberal-fiscal-plan-and-costing.pdf Quote
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