SHAME! Our 'Health Care" is the pits in comparison. :(

[Michael Hardner]

I like this thread because people are using statistics and suggesting positive change in many examples.

Very refreshing over the usual "two tier !" "one tier !" shouting matches.

[Guest Peeves]

I like this thread because people are using statistics and suggesting positive change in many examples.

Very refreshing over the usual "two tier !" "one tier !" shouting matches.

Tomorrow the 'numbers' will be out in print and perhaps an intelligent discussion will follow...

[Guest Peeves]

I dont spin.

It says, in plain english, that things are better compared to last year and the 2 years prior to that.

No spin needed.

I agree, that it does. But, I still think we should be yelling SHAME!

However, should you wish, and it appears that you have, you can and did spin this as something to hang your hat on.

I used the article to my own ends, as a complaint on Canada's health care. That's true. And, I will yet, count on it.

"While the median wait time is shorter than last year, it’s still a bit longer than it was in 2008 and about the same as it was in the years 2003-2006 despite more health care spending over the years, Esmail said.

Esmail said that Canadians still face some of the longest wait times for elective surgery in the developed world"

Edited December 4, 2012 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

typo.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Peeves

[punked]

Tomorrow the 'numbers' will be out in print and perhaps an intelligent discussion will follow...

Economies of Scale. Of course Germany and France who don't have people that live in communities of 100 people and who are 6 hour plane ride away from their "family doctor" can provide a better service while spending more money. I am shocked next you will be telling me that they have better roads in their tiny countries with populations 5-6 times the size of ours. Seriously this isn't an apples to apples comparison. Care is going to be better in Toronto then in Goosebay that is the nature of our country and when you compare our country to another country you must factor that in.

[wyly]

Another great suggestion.

to what extent? I've MD's who screwed up I'm not going to feel that confident with a nurse...

[wyly]

At least in Ontario, MD programs are no longer underfunded. Spots in medical school has increased significantly since the cuts in the 1990s and do not need to be expanded further at this time. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of years to make a physician, so deficits take many years to correct.

alberta has improved as well but as you say we're playing a catch up game, the population is growing and it will take years to correct

[wyly]

germany and france both roughly the size of Manitoba with populations in the 65-70 million range compared to Manitoba's 1.2 so of coarse Germans are and french are going to have better access to healthcare providers ...

[guyser]

germany and france both roughly the size of Manitoba with populations in the 65-70 million range compared to Manitoba's 1.2 so of coarse Germans are and french are going to have better access to healthcare providers ...

Shhhh....the Fraser Institute doesnt think critical thinking skills are out there. Judging by the way talk radio trumped up this pile of manure they may be right.

The faked outrage from the host, yes mr agar I mean you had me laughing. What a pompous ass he is, and not very bright.

[login]

the middle and upper class should be paying for their own health insurance, and selecting the plan that offers them the type kf access they need.

people are too reliant on hospitals, they need to take care of their own health

the poor meanwhile need to be give a heakthy life, to reduce their future health issues, such as healthy food and fitness.- such as thrlugh garden coops and amd community gyms.

Edited December 5, 2012 by login

[wyly]

the middle and upper class should be paying for their own health insurance, and selecting the plan that offers them the type kf access they need.

we do it's called universal healthcare...

people are too reliant on hospitals, they need to take care of their own health

right, I'll set up a surgical unit in my garage and have the mrs. install a new knee...next time I have a suspected a stroke I'll just pop a few aspirin and see how that goes...

the poor meanwhile need to be give a heakthy life, to reduce their future health issues, such as healthy food and fitness.- such as thrlugh garden coops and amd community gyms.

do you even live in the same world as the rest of us?

[Guest Peeves]

Economies of Scale. Of course Germany and France who don't have people that live in communities of 100 people and who are 6 hour plane ride away from their "family doctor" can provide a better service while spending more money. I am shocked next you will be telling me that they have better roads in their tiny countries with populations 5-6 times the size of ours. Seriously this isn't an apples to apples comparison. Care is going to be better in Toronto then in Goosebay that is the nature of our country and when you compare our country to another country you must factor that in.

So compare Ontario with France and Germany et al and they win.

[Guest Peeves]

Shhhh....the Fraser Institute doesnt think critical thinking skills are out there. Judging by the way talk radio trumped up this pile of manure they may be right.

The faked outrage from the host, yes mr agar I mean you had me laughing. What a pompous ass he is, and not very bright.

Again with the assault the messenger tactic.

Attack 1..Fraser institute.

Attack 2 Mr Agar.

Attack 3 Talk radio.

Atack 4 continuing use of manure

ok then that's special..........not!

[Canuckistani]

So compare Ontario with France and Germany et al and they win.

On what basis are you comparing Ont. with France and Germany? Certainly not population per area, I hope.

[Guest Peeves]

germany and france both roughly the size of Manitoba with populations in the 65-70 million range compared to Manitoba's 1.2 so of coarse Germans are and french are going to have better access to healthcare providers ...

Of coarse.

You think Ontario is better than France or Germany?

S*** eHealth alone (Smitherman) wasted a billion.

[Guest Peeves]

On what basis are you comparing Ont. with France and Germany? Certainly not population per area, I hope.

Comparing Ontario health care to other developed countries.

[Canuckistani]

Why? Ontario isn't a country. Why not country to country?

[wyly]

So compare Ontario with France and Germany et al and they win.

really? you have google at your finger tips and you come up with that?...

population density Ontario-14.1 per sq Km...germany 229 per sq km...france 117 per sq km...and france has something like 50% more Mds' than we do...

[Canuckistani]

.and france has something like 50% more Mds' than we do...

France has twice the population that Canada does, so I would expect them to have at least 100% more MDs. If they really only have 50% more, then those MDs are doing yeoman service and we should copy what they do. Or did you mean per capita?

[wyly]

France has twice the population that Canada does, so I would expect them to have at least 100% more MDs. If they really only have 50% more, then those MDs are doing yeoman service and we should copy what they do. Or did you mean per capita?

50% per capita(50% was a quick guess I had to look up the actual stats)...france 3.37 md's per 1000, canada 2.1 md's per 1000, germany 3.4 md's per 1000...

so when countries have more significantly MD's per capita than we do, a geographical area that is much more densely populated they will have better and quicker access than we do...of coarse the fraser institute which has a extreme right agenda of private health care isn't going to offer any explanation for the differences...

Edited December 5, 2012 by wyly

[wyly]

but where it counts "average lifespan" we do as well as they do with less resources...

[Canuckistani]

I bet the MDs in France are paid a lot less than ours are. They make a good income, but nothing compared to the US. And our physicians compare themselves with the US.

That's the overall problem. I agree with the Fraser Institute that we should try to emulate the European countries more, with a mix of public and private insurance. What the Fraser Institute won't tell you, is that the private insurance in Europe is almost all non-profit. The Fraser Institute are just shills for the private, for profit, insurance companies in the US. And that's the problem. We're close to the US. As soon as we open the market (more than it already is) to private insurance, the big boys in the US will swoop in and try to create the same costly mess as they have down there. And ideologues like Harper would be all for it.

I think we can make intelligent reforms within our single payer system. We'd have to break the monopoly power of the doctors tho. One way is to use Nurse Practitioners, as I've said. Also, pay the docs less and don't use the fee for service model. In return for paying them less, we would forgive any student loans they have, but only if they've established a long term practice in Canada. If they move to the states, hound them for every last dollar.

[bush_cheney2004]

I bet the MDs in France are paid a lot less than ours are. They make a good income, but nothing compared to the US. And our physicians compare themselves with the US.

That's the overall problem.....

Yep...that is part of the problem. Stop comparing Canada to the "US". The US, also a very large country with some sparsely populated areas, still manages to have far more local and regional capacity....enough to accept patients from provinces that lack the facilities and/or medical professionals to get the job done.

The US also has non-profit HMOs mandated in many states, but it is not a silver bullet for controlling costs.

[Guest Peeves]

Obviously there are differences in population as factors, Ontario compared to Eastern Provinces, but I'm not happy even if some of you are willing to accept what I and others consider an inadequate performance.

There has to be a better way to spend our taxes on health care.

MONTREAL — Surgical wait times have fallen slightly, but Canadian patients continue to wait too long — about four months on average — for medically necessary treatment, a new report finds.

According to the Fraser Institute’s 22nd annual report on surgical wait times, called Waiting Your Turn, patients face a median wait of 17.7 weeks for treatment — down from 19 weeks last year.

Despite the improvement over last year, Canadians are waiting 91 per cent longer today than they did in 1993 for surgical and other medical procedures. Back then, we waited an average of 9.3 weeks to get treated.

The good news is that Quebec placed second in rankings broken down by province: Ontario has the shortest wait time at 14.9 weeks, Quebec is next at 16.6 weeks, and British Columbia places third with 17 weeks.

However, study authors say even the “least worst” waits are unacceptable.

http://www.montrealg...com/7650787.bin

See chart. at link please.

Read more: http://www.montrealg...l#ixzz2ECfRPD8o

N.B. Qualifier.

But critics dismissed the Fraser Institute study as flawed because it draws on survey responses from medical practitioners rather than measurable data. Questionnaires went to practitioners in 12 specialties: plastic surgery, gynecology, ophthalmology, otolaryngology, general surgery, neurosurgery, orthopedic surgery, cardiovascular surgery, urology, internal medicine, radiation oncology, and medical oncology.

Only 18 per cent of those surveyed, or 1,801 doctors, responded. In Quebec, 10 per cent of those polled, or 257 doctors, replied.

Although it’s true that wait times for elective surgeries are longer than anyone would like, Canada has a very good track record for urgent care and does not compare poorly with other countries, said Danielle Martin, chair of Canadian Doctors for Medicare.

“Our urgent wait time is extremely short,” Martin said.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/Quebec+ranks+second+best+wait+times/7651571/story.html#ixzz2ECiMcyiA

[Canuckistani]

The US also has non-profit HMOs mandated in many states, but it is not a silver bullet for controlling costs.

Now there's an understatement. Healthcare costs at 150% of ours, yet the manage to not even cover 15% of the population.

And their population density is 10 times what our is.

Also, I've had HMO coverage. You can't choose your doctor - must be on their list. You have huge co-pays, yet still get a good whack deducted off your check to pay your portion of the coverage. You have to go to an approved hospital, so if your little girl dies because the hospital won't treat her but sends her to an approved hospital, too bad. To get coverage, a high school educated person looks up your ailment in a manual and makes the decision whether to fund you or not. And, like the Blue Cross coverage, if you have a pre-existing condition, you are SOFL. Or if they decide you lied by not telling them about the acne you had as a kid or something. US medical insurance is a nightmare. We should do everything we can to stay away from it.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Canuckistani