DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 That's Israel's choice to make, not ours. 1973 was pretty desperate...then the roads to Cairo and Damascus were open. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) And things change quickly, Israel is on top of the situation right now and could do as it pleases, now is the time to find a solution rather then ignore the problem because they can and look for a solution when the situation gets desperate. Israel has a solution though that works quite nicely for them. They figure if they transfer enough of their population into strategic areas in the west bank they will eventually get to keep it. This strategy is laid out in the Likud party charter. The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state. "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs." In other words you can completely forget about a 2 state solution while Likud is in power. They want to keep everything west of the Jordan river, and their plan to do it is to colonize as much of it as possible. The only chance for a two state solution is for the rest of the world to to exert a whole lot of pressure. Just like militants need to understand that violence will have negative consequences, Israel also needs to understand that its policy of permanently keeping the occupied territories, and keeping palestinians stateless forever, is going to bring negative consequences to them. We should decide what we want, and sanction activity by either side that is not conducive to a two state solution. Edited November 26, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Canuckistani Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Says a lot about solutions. More about you and your ethnic cleansing shtick Quote
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 More about you and your ethnic cleansing shtick Seems to me that asking the Jews to leave the WB would be ethnic cleansing. Call me mad. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Israel has a solution though that works quite nicely for them. They figure if they transfer enough of their population into strategic areas in the west bank they will eventually get to keep it. Yes...this strategy also worked well in the Americas, particulary in Canada and the United States. The only chance for a two state solution is for the rest of the world to to exert a whole lot of pressure. The "rest of the world" has many other higher priority issues to deal with. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Seems to me that asking the Jews to leave the WB would be ethnic cleansing. Call me mad. Thats like saying deporting illegal mexican immigrants from the US is ethnic cleansing. Definately jews that are not associated with ISraels illegal settlement activity should be allowed to stay. The rest can be deported as illegal immigrants, and no, thats not ethnic cleansing at all. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Thats like saying deporting illegal mexican immigrants from the US is ethnic cleansing. Definately jews that are not associated with ISraels illegal settlement activity should be allowed to stay. The rest can be deported as illegal immigrants, and no, thats not ethnic cleansing at all. Who is doing this selection process for the Jews? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Canuckistani Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) My guess is that these Jewish zealots would not be happy living in a Muslim state with likely, certainly initially, its own brand of zealotry. So the ethnic cleansing will be voluntary, and poor Israel will have to take them back. And of course, any land acquired by squatting and other non-legal means will have to be returned to Palestinians. Edited November 26, 2012 by Canuckistani Quote
dre Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Who is doing this selection process for the Jews? The governments of Israel and the West Bank I assume. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 My guess is that these Jewish zealots would not be happy living in a Muslim state with likely, certainly initially, its own brand of zealotry. So the ethnic cleansing will be voluntary, and poor Israel will have to take them back. I advise whoever does this to separate the men and the women when they begin their selection. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 The governments of Israel and the West Bank I assume. A Judenrat. Good idea. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Seriously...y'all are pretty easy on the uprooting folks and moving them jazz....who's next? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Canuckistani Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) I advise whoever does this to separate the men and the women when they begin their selection. If the settlers want to do this,that's up to them, since this will be self-selection. They can chuckle over the irony as this being the same as Germany having to give back the Sudetenland and other territories after their own quest for Lebensraum went awry. Edited November 26, 2012 by Canuckistani Quote
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 If the settlers want to do this,that's up to them, since this will be self-selection. They can think of it as being the same as Germany having to give back the Sudetenland and Poland after their Lebensraum pursuits went awry. Not bad. I think a council of local Jews that are keen on the idea would be the ideal ones to make the actual selection process. It would certainly save a lot of administration time and ultimately speed-up the process. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Canuckistani Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Not bad. I think a council of local Jews that are keen on the idea would be the ideal ones to make the actual selection process. It would certainly save a lot of administration time and ultimately speed-up the process. As I said, it's up to them. I can't speak for the Palestinians, but IMO they'd be welcome to stay in the Muslim paradise that will spring up. Without any land, since they stole that, but I guess if they really want to they can hang around. Up to them. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 As I said, it's up to them. I can't speak for the Palestinians, but IMO they'd be welcome to stay in the Muslim paradise that will spring up. Without any land, since they stole that, but I guess if they really want to they can hang around. Up to them. A Muslim paradise that contains some of the major sites of the other two's religions. Me thinks that's not a solution, either. No matter how you cut it, the Arabs are the historical interlopers under Omar. Armed with a sword, a suitcase and a whole lot o' iconoclasm. The Muslims already have a score of countries dedicated to holding weekly riots. Does the planet REALLY need one more? Hmmmmmm..... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Build a place called 'The Holy Land'...let Disney run it. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Signals.Cpl Posted November 26, 2012 Author Report Posted November 26, 2012 Israel has a solution though that works quite nicely for them. They figure if they transfer enough of their population into strategic areas in the west bank they will eventually get to keep it. Both sides need to get rid of their extremists. In other words you can completely forget about a 2 state solution while Likud is in power. They want to keep everything west of the Jordan river, and their plan to do it is to colonize as much of it as possible. And I would wager that plenty of Israelis would jump at an opportunity for peace and vote them out. Given a clear and concise plan presented to the people and I personally believe that people will chose peace and security over fear and everlasting war. The only chance for a two state solution is for the rest of the world to exert a whole lot of pressure. I don’t think that’s so far off, I think that the world will get tired of both sides and impose a solution on them. Just like militants need to understand that violence will have negative consequences, Israel also needs to understand that its policy of permanently keeping the occupied territories, and keeping palestinians stateless forever, is going to bring negative consequences to them. We should decide what we want, and sanction activity by either side that is not conducive to a two state solution. At this point the US and Egypt can keep the two sides in check, the US exerts pressure for Israel to act reasonably and Egypt puts pressure on the Palestinians to act reasonably and there is chance of success. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Hudson Jones Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Both sides need to get rid of their extremists. They're not going to disappear and unfortunately, some of them have too much power to just simply disappear. However, starting to communicate and getting the majority of the public on both sides behind communication and dialogue will reduce the power of the extremists on both sides. And I would wager that plenty of Israelis would jump at an opportunity for peace and vote them out. Given a clear and concise plan presented to the people and I personally believe that people will chose peace and security over fear and everlasting war. Another issue right now is that there isn't any opposition groups in Israel to challenge Likud. I don’t think that’s so far off, I think that the world will get tired of both sides and impose a solution on them.At this point the US and Egypt can keep the two sides in check, the US exerts pressure for Israel to act reasonably and Egypt puts pressure on the Palestinians to act reasonably and there is chance of success. In time, we will see how much influence Egypt, Qatar and other Arab states have over the Palestinians and their push to resist violence. The latest ceasefire has been encouraging. Unfortunately, Likud/AIPAC have quite a lot of power in the U.S. congress and senate. J-Street is the other Jewish lobby group, which basically calls for exactly what you are calling for; Dialogue with Fatah, a solution to the settlements and push for a real two state solution. Even though they've gained influence in the past few years, their influence is nowhere near that of AIPAC's. So how will congress and senate back a resolution when they're not willing to? The 535 Americans who are blocking peace in the Middle East Following the Aipac The Congress of the United States consists of 100 senators and 435 members of the House of Representatives; in effect, just 535 Americans are blocking efforts to bring peace to the Middle East. Why? Forget the pious guff about Israel being the region's "only democracy" and a "valued friend and ally" of Washington. In the corrupt and dysfunctional US political system, where legislators are outnumbered by special interests, from the gun lobby to Big Pharma, the Israel lobby - specifically, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (Aipac) that brags on its website about being "the most important organisation affecting America's relationship with Israel" - has a financial stranglehold on both main parties. According to William Quandt, a former adviser on the Middle East to the Nixon and Carter administrations, "70 per cent to 80 per cent of all members of Congress will go along with whatever they think Aipac wants". Link Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 The 535 Americans who are blocking peace in the Middle East Contradiction....if it's only 70 or 80 percent who support AIPAC, then it can't be 535 Americans "blocking peace". The whole concept is whacked, as AIPAC is an American lobby, not Israeli. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Contradiction....if it's only 70 or 80 percent who support AIPAC, then it can't be 535 Americans "blocking peace". The whole concept is whacked, as AIPAC is an American lobby, not Israeli. I think the point is that the senate and congress are blocking peace. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
dre Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 At this point the US and Egypt can keep the two sides in check, the US exerts pressure for Israel to act reasonably and Egypt puts pressure on the Palestinians to act reasonably and there is chance of success. What is required is real and meaningful economic pressure. Both Israel and the occupied territories benefit from aid and trade, and that should be used as part of a carrot and stock approach. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Palestine as an independent state would need to beg Bangladesh for foreign aid. It has no resources, no industry, can't feed itself, and doesn't have enough water for either industry or proper farming, even presuming it had enough farmland, which it doesn't. It can't support the people living there now, much less those who would want to return if it became independent. Its governmental budgets are mostly paid for by the United States for it has very little to tax. So what would happen if they became independent? The place would soon deteriorate into an Islamist state run by a dictator whose people lived in misery -- much as they do now. I do not imagine peace would likely flow from such a situation. The only logical way to resolve the Palestinian question is to give the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. The people living there would become either Egyptian or Jordanian citizens. You would have to pay (bribe) Jordan and Egypt to take them, of course, but it would be cheaper, in the long run, than any other resolution. It would also give Israel the peace it is looking for. Edited November 27, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 I think the point is that the senate and congress are blocking peace. Oh, I think we got the point...it's just asinine. The U.S. Senate and House are not "blocking peace". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Oh, I think we got the point...it's just asinine. The U.S. Senate and House are not "blocking peace". Keeping the status quo going is blocking peace. As someone else has pointed out, this has been Likud's plan. To annex as much Palestinian land as possible. The longer there is no peace and no Palestinian state, the more land can be annexed. Since congress and senate are not going to be moved, it looks like pressure from Egypt, Jordan, Turkey and other mid-East U.S. allies on both Hamas and U.S. is the only way to achieve this. This is of course, if Bibi is not replaced by a less extreme party/coalition. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
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