Solution for lasting peace in the Middle East

[Signals.Cpl]

First off I would like to state that I understand that there are dozens of topics on this subject but all of them revolve around the same issue and few if any of them that I have seen discuss options on how this conflict might end. At the end of the day we can argue who is right and who is wrong and use history to support our position but in 20 years we will most likely be seeing the same events playing out on a different day. Ultimately the cease fire between Hamas and Israel is no more then a ceasefire and has no chance of succeeding beyond that unless a long lasting solution could be found.

I would like to ask of people to discuss positive options for a long lasting solution rather than bring the arguments from the other threads in to this discussions.

For a long lasting peace I believe the solution has to come from Israel rather then the Palestinian side, mainly because in that conflict there are 3 sides the Palestinians, Israel and the terrorist organizations(Hamas etc...) and Hamas to destroy Israel and their existence and power comes from the fight against Israel and thus they do not benefit from peace. Israel can defeat Hamas militarily but with every defeat suffered by the terrorists they engineer it so that many civilians die in the conflict so as to guarantee a level of hate against Israel and a substantial pool of manpower for rebuilding and future conflicts. My belief is that the Palestinians are backing Hamas and other terrorist organizations because of the above mentioned actions where Hamas provokes Israel and hides behind civilians thus guaranteeing the everlasting hatred for the Israelis but also because they the Palestinians have nothing to lose but their lives and everything to gain even if the chance of victory is minuscule. For Israel to have peace they need to in a manner of speaking defeat the Palestinians and their will to fight while largely ignoring Hamas and the other terrorist organizations.

Now there are the obvious options to defeat the Palestinians, ethnic cleansing and genocide come to mind but they are drastic and monstrous “solutions” that solve nothing when the dust settles and in fact will most likely expand the conflict significantly. My belief is that Israel needs to give in to some of the requests of the Palestinian people and attach consequences for failing to stop the violence against Israel by Terrorist organizations, essentially have a carrot and a stick policy. To accomplish this there needs to be an arab nation willing and able to assist in this effort and the best nation to do that would be Egypt mainly because they are affected by this conflict, they could benefit tremendously by being part of the solution and they have great power to stop the flow of weapons in the area as they are the only other nation bordering the Gaza Strip.

By giving Palestinians something to lose, something they have not been able to gain through other means might just be the way to destroy their will to fight because they would have real results and can see a better future for themselves and their children and as a result would most likely do anything within their power to prevent the terrorist organizations such as Hamas from destroying it.

[Canuckistani]

The only thing Israel can give the Palestinians to lose is land. Remove the settlements. If the Palestinians continue to attack, then Israel would have every right to defend itself, including occupying Palestine with troops on a temporary basis.. (not settlers). Then Israel can offer carrots to moderate Palestinians, such as economic development, while going after those that continue the attacks (doubtless there will be some) Israel will have to use finesse here, and not do the German trick of making the entire population suffer for the actions of those that won't stop fighting.

tI's been said that Egypt for instance, while publicly supporting Hamas, in actuality and action does not. I doubt most surrounding states have any use for Hamas, maybe there's a way Israel can use this more to its advantage,

If they've closed the settlements, maybe go in partnership with some Palestinians who want make money to help build some infrastructure in Palestine, get more Palestinians see what co-operation brings,

But, as we see on this forum, there are as many Israelis and supporters who are no more interested in peace, want to holocaust the Palestinians just as much as the Palestinians the Israelis. Doubt if there's a solution that will work with these elements rampant on both sides. Both sides seem eager to cut off their noses to spite their faces,

[Hudson Jones]

Solution: Follow international law and negotiate based on resolutions 181 and 242. This is something Fatah recognizes, Hamas has said they recognize and the rest of the world recognizes.

- Stop the expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank

- Border based on the 1967 border with land swaps to address the large settlements inside the West Bank while dismantling the smaller settlements

- Right of return: Compensation for Palestinian refugees (1.6 million) given by Israel, U.S. and Europe for them to settle in the West Bank and to remain in the surrounding Arab countries.

- Full recognition of the Palestinian state and rights and freedom of Palestinians

Regarding Hamas: Israel finally recognized that they can no longer pretend that Hamas is not part of the equation. They were forced to negotiate with Hamas during the latest ceasefire and that is the only way to go forward. Many Israelis recognize this, including top Israeli military personnel who are usually driven by realistic understanding of the situation, instead of extreme nationalism zealotry which is a trademark of the settler movement.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Hudson Jones

[Hudson Jones]

The Arab Peace Initiative is something that should be looked at and revisited. Syria was the only opposition to it and they're no longer a player.

[DogOnPorch]

But Hamas is...lol.

[Signals.Cpl]

Regarding Hamas: Israel finally recognized that they no longer pretend that Hamas is not part of the equation. They were forced to negotiate with Hamas during the latest ceasefire and that is the only way to go forward. Many Israelis recognize this, including top Israeli military personnel who are usually driven by realistic understanding of the situation, instead of extreme nationalism zealotry which is a trademark of the settler movement.

Look, I don't know if shooting penguins will help the environment or not. But I do know the decision shouldn't be in the hands of people who just wanna kill for fun.

That was a quote from a cartoon, now let me rephrase that: I don't know if there is a solution to the Middle East problem, but I do know that the decision to find a peaceful solution should be in the hands of those who would most benefit from that. Hamas has nothing to gain from peace and everything to lose from peace, so excluding them and negotiating with moderate groups will bring more progress then negotiating with one of the groups build up from the conflict and its power and existence is based upon a never ending war. Hamas benefits if no solution is found while the Palestinians in general suffer as a result.

[Hudson Jones]

That was a quote from a cartoon, now let me rephrase that: I don't know if there is a solution to the Middle East problem, but I do know that the decision to find a peaceful solution should be in the hands of those who would most benefit from that. Hamas has nothing to gain from peace and everything to lose from peace, so excluding them and negotiating with moderate groups will bring more progress then negotiating with one of the groups build up from the conflict and its power and existence is based upon a never ending war. Hamas benefits if no solution is found while the Palestinians in general suffer as a result.

Many political parties grew out of their terrorist phase. Including Fatah. Even past Israeli prime ministers such as Begin and Shamir were heads of terrorist groups, Lehi and Irgun. Those two groups were part of terrorist attacks on the British and part of a few massacres against the Palestinians.

Hamas is something you cannot pretend does not exist. They are part of the package. The Arab countries have put a lot of pressure on them and the pressure has worked. Not only has Hamas abandoned suicide bombings, but they have even stepped up to say that they are willing to negotiate based on the 1967 border. This is the same Hamas group who never minces words.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Hudson Jones

[DogOnPorch]

Hamas has abandoned suicide bombing (for now) because they can't physically get to Israel easily anymore.

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe Hamas could try suicide carrier pigeons.

[Signals.Cpl]

Many political parties grew out of their terrorist phase. Including Fatah. Even past Israeli prime ministers such as Begin and Shamir were heads of terrorist groups, Lehi and Irgun. Those two groups were part of terrorist attacks on the British and part of a few massacres against the Palestinians.

Hamas is something you cannot pretend does not exist. The Arab countries have put a lot of pressure on them and the pressure has worked. Not only has Hamas abandoned suicide bombings, but they have even stepped up to say that they are willing to negotiate based on the 1967 border.

There are terrorist groups on the sidelines waiting for Hamas to soften its position on Israel and they will pounce on them and take power from Hamas and as such Hamas has nothing to gain from peace. The only possibility here is for Israel to talk to moderates who can benefit from peace and give them the means to convince Palestinians that further violence will bring nothing but destruction for thing and loss of their newfound gains. You can talk to the moderate groups and give them the chance to prove that negotiating could bring about results and Palestinians could get freedoms they have only dreamed about up to that point or you can try to negotiate with Hamas and the other like them who most likely will turn this in to a victory for them and use it as "proof" that violence brings results, once the people are convinced that the "victory" is because of the violent means of Hamas and decide that they will push for more concessions at essentially gunpoint we will be back in this position of worse.

Between January and November of this year over 2,200 rockets have been launched from the Gaza strip in to Israel, negotiate with Hamas and they will twist this in to a victory, negotiate with moderates can and will bring peace while discrediting Hamas and their actions.

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe Hamas could try suicide carrier pigeons.

Oh great...now Israel will have to come up with Feather Dome.

[dre]

First off I would like to state that I understand that there are dozens of topics on this subject but all of them revolve around the same issue and few if any of them that I have seen discuss options on how this conflict might end. At the end of the day we can argue who is right and who is wrong and use history to support our position but in 20 years we will most likely be seeing the same events playing out on a different day. Ultimately the cease fire between Hamas and Israel is no more then a ceasefire and has no chance of succeeding beyond that unless a long lasting solution could be found.

I would like to ask of people to discuss positive options for a long lasting solution rather than bring the arguments from the other threads in to this discussions.

For a long lasting peace I believe the solution has to come from Israel rather then the Palestinian side, mainly because in that conflict there are 3 sides the Palestinians, Israel and the terrorist organizations(Hamas etc...) and Hamas to destroy Israel and their existence and power comes from the fight against Israel and thus they do not benefit from peace. Israel can defeat Hamas militarily but with every defeat suffered by the terrorists they engineer it so that many civilians die in the conflict so as to guarantee a level of hate against Israel and a substantial pool of manpower for rebuilding and future conflicts. My belief is that the Palestinians are backing Hamas and other terrorist organizations because of the above mentioned actions where Hamas provokes Israel and hides behind civilians thus guaranteeing the everlasting hatred for the Israelis but also because they the Palestinians have nothing to lose but their lives and everything to gain even if the chance of victory is minuscule. For Israel to have peace they need to in a manner of speaking defeat the Palestinians and their will to fight while largely ignoring Hamas and the other terrorist organizations.

Now there are the obvious options to defeat the Palestinians, ethnic cleansing and genocide come to mind but they are drastic and monstrous “solutions” that solve nothing when the dust settles and in fact will most likely expand the conflict significantly. My belief is that Israel needs to give in to some of the requests of the Palestinian people and attach consequences for failing to stop the violence against Israel by Terrorist organizations, essentially have a carrot and a stick policy. To accomplish this there needs to be an arab nation willing and able to assist in this effort and the best nation to do that would be Egypt mainly because they are affected by this conflict, they could benefit tremendously by being part of the solution and they have great power to stop the flow of weapons in the area as they are the only other nation bordering the Gaza Strip.

By giving Palestinians something to lose, something they have not been able to gain through other means might just be the way to destroy their will to fight because they would have real results and can see a better future for themselves and their children and as a result would most likely do anything within their power to prevent the terrorist organizations such as Hamas from destroying it.

I would treat the west bank and Gaza as two separate entities.

And the solution is obvious... Withdraw from the west bank. We have the most moderate government there in history, and they have had success reigning in militants, and recognized Israels right to exist. They have done everything israel asked of them, yet settlement building and the occupation continues. This sends a message to the palestinians that a cessation of violence, and the election of moderates wont get them anywhere.

Israel should withdraw from all west bank territory besides Jerusalem, and give the palestinians some other land in exchange for that.

This would send a message that electing people like Abbas and rejecting violence will actually get them somewhere. If they DONT do this it sends the exact opposite message.

Edited November 26, 2012 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

I would treat the west bank and Gaza as two separate entities.

And the solution is obvious... Withdraw from the west bank.

That's ethnic cleansing. Are no Jews allowed in this new WB state?

[bush_cheney2004]

....This would send a message that electing people like Abbas and rejecting violence will actually get them somewhere. If they DONT do this it sends the exact opposite message.

But you told us previously to just let them fight it out in the "dirtfarm".

[Signals.Cpl]

I would treat the west bank and Gaza as two separate entities.

And the solution is obvious... Withdraw from the west bank. We have the most moderate government there in history, and they have had success reigning in militants, and recognized Israels right to exist. They have done everything israel asked of them, yet settlement building and the occupation continues. This sends a message to the palestinians that a cessation of violence, and the election of moderates wont get them anywhere.

Israel should withdraw from all west bank territory besides Jerusalem, and give the palestinians some other land in exchange for that.

This would send a message that electing people like Abbas and rejecting violence will actually get them somewhere. If they DONT do this it sends the exact opposite message.

I agree 100% with that, Israel needs to make the first move, and this seems like the perfect way to do so.

[bush_cheney2004]

I agree 100% with that, Israel needs to make the first move, and this seems like the perfect way to do so.

Why does Israel need to make the first move?

[DogOnPorch]

But you told us previously to just let them fight it out in the "dirtfarm".

It's all about zee waters.

[Signals.Cpl]

Why does Israel need to make the first move?

Because if they want peace they have to make the first move, as I said before Hamas and their very existence is based upon conflict, no conflict no Hamas as someone will take over thus Israel has to make the first move and build up the Moderates by giving concessions. Give moderates a concession and suddenly it begins to look like negotiating is the path to go. Wait for Hamas to make the first move and you will be waiting a long time.

[DogOnPorch]

Because if they want peace they have to make the first move, as I said before Hamas and their very existence is based upon conflict, no conflict no Hamas as someone will take over thus Israel has to make the first move and build up the Moderates by giving concessions. Give moderates a concession and suddenly it begins to look like negotiating is the path to go. Wait for Hamas to make the first move and you will be waiting a long time.

Israel has made several 'first moves' that no longer look like a good idea. It was the 'good intentions' of leaving Gaza in 2005 while leaving the industry behind for the Arabs that brought about Hamas in the first place.

[bush_cheney2004]

Because if they want peace they have to make the first move, as I said before Hamas and their very existence is based upon conflict.....

Nope....this is a failed strategy. Peace is not sought for peace alone. Israel does not want peace if it means continuing security threats from others in the region. "If you want peace, prepare for war".

[Signals.Cpl]

Nope....this is a failed strategy. Peace is not sought for peace alone. Israel does not want peace if it means continuing security threats from others in the region. "If you want peace, prepare for war".

I'm pretty certain that Egypt would be more then willing to participate in this endeavour as they would benefit greatly, Syria is a non-issue as they have their own problems to solve and should they try to fight Israel in the future they will be alone. Turkey is another non-issue nation as they are a NATO member and I can't see them going to war with Israel anytime soon. The only other solution is the status quo, which is not something I think most people in the region want as the Palestinians are living in one of the most impoverished area's in the world and Israel is essentially in a constant state of war with rockets raining down on them daily. If Israel does not make the first move, Hamas most definitely will not make the first move and the moderates have been ignored. Show the Palestinians that peace and moderate leadership brings results and they will deal with Hamas and the other organizations like Hamas all on their own. If you have nothing to lose you will lash out, give the Palestinians something to lose and let them remove the threat or face losing it forever.

[DogOnPorch]

Syria has VX nerve agent stocks rolling around the country with nobody really at the helm.

[Signals.Cpl]

Syria has VX nerve agent stocks rolling around the country with nobody really at the helm.

And that is Syria's problem and should not derail any potential peace negotiations.

[bush_cheney2004]

The only other solution is the status quo, which is not something I think most people in the region want as the Palestinians are living in one of the most impoverished area's in the world and Israel is essentially in a constant state of war with rockets raining down on them daily.

No, Palestinians are not living in one of the most impoverished area's of the world. Try Sub-Saharan Africa, or parts of Asia, or even "Indian reserves" in North America.

If Israel does not make the first move, Hamas most definitely will not make the first move and the moderates have been ignored. Show the Palestinians that peace and moderate leadership brings results and they will deal with Hamas and the other organizations like Hamas all on their own.

Hasn't worked in the past. How about recognizing the right for Israel to even exist?

If you have nothing to lose you will lash out, give the Palestinians something to lose and let them remove the threat or face losing it forever.

They have been lashing out for over 50 years. How's that working for them?

Edited November 26, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

And that is Syria's problem and should not derail any potential peace negotiations.

Actually, if terrorists get a hold of Syria's VX, it's-a-gonna-be alla our problem.