For the First Time I Am in Despair for the West, as Well as Israel

[GostHacked]

No it isn't. There is no 'trick' to that photo if you know your OWN historical facts. That B-17 is a G model. It's a late G model to boot. How do I know? The nose MG hanging down has a gun mount. The aircraft is silver rather than OD green & grey...meaning it was taken on or after Sept 1944. The mud tells me this aircraft ditched at an alternate airfield as all B-17 aerodromes were paved concrete. The barely visible nose stripe tells me it is possibly from the 303rd BG or the 305th BG. But it's hard to tell w/o seeing the B-17's tail/rudder.

So what was the purpose of posting that? iIt's just a picture. So let's bring some historical context into the picture. But wait, that could show that you are using what historians say about it because neither you or me were born then so we have to rely on historians in order to know more about the context of the picture. However, since we both agree that historians can be biased and can misconstrued history, this is where you attempted a 'gotcha' moment. I do thank you for teaching me a couple things, one is dealing with posters like you.

Edit to add this - And you are simply guessing at some of the 'facts' about the picture. Good job.

Edited November 27, 2012 by GostHacked

[DogOnPorch]

So what was the purpose of posting that? iIt's just a picture. So let's bring some historical context into the picture. But wait, that could show that you are using what historians say about it because neither you or me were born then so we have to rely on historians in order to know more about the context of the picture. However, since we both agree that historians can be biased and can misconstrued history, this is where you attempted a 'gotcha' moment. I do thank you for teaching me a couple things, one is dealing with posters like you.

It shows that HISTORY is objective...are you just slow this morning? Have a coffee.

Edited November 27, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

It shows that HISTORY is objective...are you just slow this morning? Have a coffee.

No you have proven that a picture was taken of a damaged aircraft. You are simply guessing at how it got damaged. That's not historical objectivity.

[DogOnPorch]

Edit to add this - And you are simply guessing at some of the 'facts' about the picture. Good job.

Nope...I've been involved with aircraft all my life as have a good chunk of my family.

[DogOnPorch]

No you have proven that a picture was taken of a damaged aircraft. You are simply guessing at how it got damaged. That's not historical objectivity.

It was damaged by a direct 88mm flak hit.

[GostHacked]

Nope...I've been involved with aircraft all my life as have a good chunk of my family.

Still trying to figure out the relevance you are attempting to put forth here. Should I take your word as a 'historian' of aircraft?

[GostHacked]

It was damaged by a direct 88mm flak hit.

Does the picture say that? Or are you just guessing?

[DogOnPorch]

Still trying to figure out the relevance you are attempting to put forth here. Should I take your word as a 'historian' of aircraft?

One more time for those still catching-up...

History is objective. Historians are subjective.

[DogOnPorch]

Does the picture say that? Or are you just guessing?

Germany had two weapons capable of hitting a B-17 at 25,000'. The 88mm and the 128mm. If the 128mm had hit it there'd be no aircraft left.

[GostHacked]

One more time for those still catching-up...

History is objective. Historians are subjective.

And you have simply shown a picture of a damaged plane. Objectively you can say the aircraft was hit by flack fire, but you cannot be certain.

[DogOnPorch]

And you have simply shown a picture of a damaged

plane. Objectively you can say the aircraft was hit by flack fire, but you cannot be certain.

Yes I can with about 99% certainty. But, I'm a lot more familiar with weapons of the Luftwaffe than yourself. The biggest weapon the Germans carried into the air was the 30mm cannon on the Me-262 and Me-163*...both extremely rare aircraft. The 30mm leaves a pie-plate sized hole where it hits then explodes with the force of a small grenade. The 128mm flak cannon...also very rare...doesn't leave the aircraft in one piece as it is four times the strength of the 88mm in explosive power and a much higher velocity. This leaves the mid-sized 88 as the culprit and many B-17s reported taking direct hits and surviving. If it was a twin engine aircraft that operated at under 10,000' then you have all sorts of things that could hit it from MGs and 20mm on up. But in the four engine world, the realm was the skies at 25,000+ feet.

That's what I get from that picture. You see an airplane...and wouldn't know it was a B-17 unless I had told you.

* and some night fighters like the Hs-219 Owl.

Edited November 27, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

Yes I can with about 99% certainty. But, I'm a lot more familiar with weapons of the Luftwaffe than yourself. The biggest weapon the Germans carried into the air was the 30mm cannon on the Me-262 and Me-163*...both extremely rare aircraft. The 30mm leaves a pie-plate sized hole where it hits then explodes with the force of a small grenade. The 128mm flak cannon...also very rare...doesn't leave the aircraft in one piece as it is four times the strength of the 88mm in explosive power and a much higher velocity. This leaves the mid-sized 88 as the culprit and many B-17s reported taking direct hits and surviving. If it was a twin engine aircraft that operated at under 10,000' then you have all sorts of things that could hit it from MGs and 20mm on up. But in the four engine world, the realm was the skies at 25,000+ feet.

That's what I get from that picture. You see an airplane...and wouldn't know it was a B-17 unless I had told you.

* and some night fighters like the Hs-219 Owl.

I think I'll use the *yawn*, seems appropriate here. Since you like to pull that out from time to time.

Sure it's a damanged B-17 everything else is just a best guess. But this distraction has been fun, it's time to get back on topic.

[DogOnPorch]

I think I'll use the *yawn*, seems appropriate here. Since you like to pull that out from time to time.

Sure it's a damanged B-17 everything else is just a best guess. But this distraction has been fun, it's time to get back on topic.

Heh..heh...thank-you for admitting I'm correct.

[bush_cheney2004]

You get extra points if you can tell me the year it was taken by visual clues.

Hey, we never got the answer to this question. Based on the Bendix chin turret, this was either a late block F model, or G model (pictured below). That means no earlier than 1943, and more likely 1944. The radio compass loop antenna (ADF football) also means "G" to me.

[DogOnPorch]

Yup...a late G with the cheek gun positions fully evolved like the one you posted. The nose gun on the B-17 is a great indicator as to the model. On the earliest models, they were mere .30 cals that could be moved (with effort) from one pivot hole to another. The F was the last to use the pivot holes (.50 cal) though some Fs were test beds for the new Bendix turret.

[bush_cheney2004]

The cool thing about your photo is the 50 cal. from the port cheek still hanging there after the flak hit and landing.

[DogOnPorch]

The cool thing about your photo is the 50 cal. from the port cheek still hanging there after the flak hit and landing.

Yes...an 88mm flak hit to yea olde nose compartment. That the Flying Fort could take that and go 'Meh' and fly home to England is quite incredible. The less famous B-24 Liberator was equally tough...and more numerous.

Edit: yes on 1944...late....hit over Cologne.

Edited November 28, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

True...but alas, the venerable B-24's (and Lancasters) never got their own TV show. Just a few Twilight Zone episodes and a movie.

[DogOnPorch]

Dambusters?

[bush_cheney2004]

Dambusters?

Yep....****WARNING - JINGO PORN ************

[DogOnPorch]

Great flak effects for the day. I had the 1/72nd Airfix (I think) Dambuster hanging in my room as a kid.

Edit: Airfix it was...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Airfix-A50061-Dambusters-Gift-Set/dp/B0021L9C2S

Edited November 28, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

Speaking of classic aircraft...

[WIP]

All these playthings put on display over the last few posts, are another reminder that the combined U.S. military forces need to consume as much oil in a year as Sweden.....and, the fact that the U.S. has been a net importer of oil since the first oil crisis of 1973, tells us why U.S. foreign policy is focused first on where the oil is in the rest of the world, and what the U.S. Government needs to do to ensure continued access to that oil.

[DogOnPorch]

Without those B-17s bombing the rat-pee out of Germany, you'd probably be writing your report to the local Gauleiter as to production quotas in the greater Reich sphere of influence this morning.

[bush_cheney2004]

All these playthings put on display over the last few posts, are another reminder that the combined U.S. military forces need to consume as much oil in a year as Sweden

Frankly, I would think it is much, much more. Good thing all the supercarriers and subs are nuclear powered, huh?

.....and, the fact that the U.S. has been a net importer of oil since the first oil crisis of 1973, tells us why U.S. foreign policy is focused first on where the oil is in the rest of the world, and what the U.S. Government needs to do to ensure continued access to that oil.

It's not just the U.S., as Canada and many other developed and not so developed nations also import oil and gas. That's why we call it a "hydrocarbon economy".