dre Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 In any case this is GREAT NEWS! Squabbling over this kind of petty stuff while a little silly and embarassing is much better than if we had REAL problems to deal with. We are lucky to live in the west! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 And she wanted a male-gendered haircut. Thats a poor analogy. This women did not want the shop to sell a product it didnt provide, she wanted a mens haircut. ok I'm amending my position. The shop could be asked to provide a man's haircut to a woman ... but the guy still shouldn't have to contravene his religious practices if it could be reasonably avoided. And if they get a non-Muslim to cut her hair - does she really need to pursue the HRC case ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) i had a similar discussion with MD friend recently...an MD he said should be able to refuse treatment for personal/religious reasons such refusing birth control to single women or refusing abortions...my answer was no they shouldn't, they took a job serving the public and had no right to pass judgement based on religious grounds...those MDs should have picked different specialties that wouldn't require them to those moral judgements, they get paid out of the public purse they must provide the service... so if you're going to provide a service to the public it must be supplied to everyone equally, if it conflicts with your religious/moral beliefs find another career that doesn't... Edited November 15, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Two months after she asked for the cut? The shop needs to put up a sign saying women cut by appointment only. But again, if gyms can discriminate, why can't these guys? Strictly speaking, gyms shouldn't be allowed to discriminate - however you could make the case that they have to set up separate facilities for certain genders, which requires extra investment. Not sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 i had a similar discussion with MD friend recently...an MD he said should be able to refuse treatment for personal/religious reasons such refusing birth control to single women or refusing abortions...my answer was no they shouldn't, they took a job serving the public and had right to pass judgement based on religious grounds...those MDs should have picked different specialties that wouldn't require them to those moral judgements, they get paid out of the public purse they must provide the service... so if you're going to provide a service to the public it must be supplied to everyone equally, if it conflicts with your religious/moral beliefs find another career that doesn't... I agree. You should not be able to discriminate for religious reasons. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 so if you're going to provide a service to the public it must be supplied to everyone equally, if it conflicts with your religious/moral beliefs find another career that doesn't... I don't agree. Reasonable accommodation can easily be found in such cases. We do it for Sikhs with much more difficulty than to just excuse someone from certain duties. Why lower the bar for Catholics and devout Christians ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Two months after she asked for the cut? The shop needs to put up a sign saying women cut by appointment only. But again, if gyms can discriminate, why can't these guys? on the surface they appear the same but gyms are an exception due to sexual predators... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) on the surface they appear the same but gyms are an exception due to sexual predators... Really? Lots of guys would attack women in the gym? Was that the argument that allowed female only gyms to stand - too much chance of getting raped otherwise? Yet, we have plenty of gyms that serve both genders, including the ones I've used, and I've never heard of a woman getting raped or groped at the gym. Or are you talking about the horror of the phallocentric gaze? Edited November 15, 2012 by Canuckistani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I don't agree. Reasonable accommodation can easily be found in such cases. We do it for Sikhs with much more difficulty than to just excuse someone from certain duties. Why lower the bar for Catholics and devout Christians ? we shouldn't do it for anyone regardless of religion, if the job conflicts with one's moral/religious beliefs then find another job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 If a devout Muslim woman worked there and it was against her religion then sure. Are we in crazy supposition land yet ? If she was the only person able to serve you, would the owner of the shop have made every reasonable attempt to serve the public by only having her working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I don't agree. Reasonable accommodation can easily be found in such cases. We do it for Sikhs with much more difficulty than to just excuse someone from certain duties. Why lower the bar for Catholics and devout Christians ? Big diff between excusing somebody from certain duties or letting them wear their headgear, and allowing them to discriminate against others. How do we allow Sikhs to discriminate against others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) ok I'm amending my position. The shop could be asked to provide a man's haircut to a woman ... but the guy still shouldn't have to contravene his religious practices if it could be reasonably avoided. but the guy still shouldn't have to contravene his religious practices if it could be reasonably avoided So does every christian that works on sunday. The standard is REASONABLE ACCOMODATION. In this case a person whos religion places severe restrictions on contact with the public has taken a job touching the public. If my religion forbid me from touching rubber, and I applied for a job at a tire repair shop, thats not reasonable accomodation. And if they get a non-Muslim to cut her hair - does she really need to pursue the HRC case ? Yes its silly and a bit frivalous. As I said before, its great that our lives or so good that we can afford to put energy into such small problems. The reality here is that if a mens salon is legally bound to sell mens haircuts to women, then that means cutting womens hair should be in the job description given to potential applicants. Applicants should read that job description and decide if it conflicts with their faith or not, and they shouldnt take the job if it does. Just like the guy from the anti-rubber religion whos considering applying for work at the tire shop Edited November 15, 2012 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Right. Do cases like that happen ? Maybe they do. Men buy underwear and lingerie for women all the time. I've yet to hear any shop turning down the sale on the grounds that the purchaser was male. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) the guy still shouldn't have to contravene his religious practices if it could be reasonably avoided.I absolutely agree with this. And if they get a non-Muslim to cut her hair - does she really need to pursue the HRC case ? No, but they should make it a practice going forward to inform clientele that they will cut a woman's hair by appointment only, so they can make the appropriate arrangements. Edited November 15, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Really? Lots of guys would attack women in the gym? Was that the argument that allowed female only gyms to stand - too much chance of getting raped otherwise? Yet, we have plenty of gyms that serve both genders, including the ones I've used, and I've never heard of a woman getting raped or groped at the gym. Or are you talking about the horror of the phallocentric gaze? not all predators are rapists but it is something they work up to...I've been in gyms where there are predators that come only to stare at the women (and I'm not talking about normal male glances) I've seen them and they are indeed creepy...my daughter tells me of predator that stalks her gym he has repeatedly "accidentally" he claims entered the women's change rooms, complaints about the behaviour do nothing because it's a public coed gym and there is no evidence that it is deliberate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 i had a similar discussion with MD friend recently...an MD he said should be able to refuse treatment for personal/religious reasons such refusing birth control to single women or refusing abortions...my answer was no they shouldn't, they took a job serving the public and had no right to pass judgement based on religious grounds...those MDs should have picked different specialties that wouldn't require them to those moral judgements, they get paid out of the public purse they must provide the service... so if you're going to provide a service to the public it must be supplied to everyone equally, if it conflicts with your religious/moral beliefs find another career that doesn't... An example of your friend's thinking is what lead to that woman dying in Ireland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I absolutely agree with this. No, but they should make it a practice going forward to inform clientele that they will cut a woman's hair by appointment only, so they can make the appropriate arrangements. that would be a reasonable compromise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 we shouldn't do it for anyone regardless of religion, if the job conflicts with one's moral/religious beliefs then find another job... This is a good and workable solution but only if potential applicants are well informed by the employer. If the employer in this case told this barber that he would NOT have to cut womens hair, then he should not have to cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 This is a good and workable solution but only if potential applicants are well informed by the employer. If the employer in this case told this barber that he would NOT have to cut womens hair, then he should not have to cut it. sure but it's agreed to ahead of time...it's the employer who is responsible...the same would apply to me if I hired a devout christian that could not work on sundays...the work expectations should be discussed up front before someone is hired and both need to agree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 sure but it's agreed to ahead of time...it's the employer who is responsible...the same would apply to me if I hired a devout christian that could not work on sundays...the work expectations should be discussed up front before someone is hired and both need to agree... Right the job description has to be accurate so that religious applicants can know if it conflicts with their faith or not. My guess is that in this case the shop owner did not know that he was obliged to sell his mens services to women, and giving a women a mens haircut was not in the job description. Thats the shop owners mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 not all predators are rapists but it is something they work up to... I've been in gyms where there are predators that come only to stare at the women (and I'm not talking about normal male glances) I've seen them and they are indeed creepy...my daughter tells me of predator that stalks her gym he has repeatedly "accidentally" he claims entered the women's change rooms, complaints about the behaviour do nothing because it's a public coed gym and there is no evidence that it is deliberate... And yet women seem to go to coed gyms all the time. I would't go to an all male gym, and the coed ones I go to seem to have significant numbers of women present. What's wrong with those women that they don't feel predated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) An example of your friend's thinking is what lead to that woman dying in Ireland. yup, I'm going to throw that at him and see what he comes back with...as I said to him at the time was if an MD can't do abortions for religious reasons then he/she shouldn't have become a Ob-Gyn and chosen dermatology instead... Edited November 15, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 we shouldn't do it for anyone regardless of religion, if the job conflicts with one's moral/religious beliefs then find another job... Ok. You're opening the door for people to abuse people of certain religions. Pretty easy for employers to institute practices which would prevent certain folks from working there. How about: Bacon Day ! "No Turban Tuesdays" ! And, the courts don't agree with you. We have reasonable accommodation already as a precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 If she was the only person able to serve you, would the owner of the shop have made every reasonable attempt to serve the public by only having her working? Maybe.... but we have done so many legal "supposes" that I can't remember which side of that question I support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 So it seems like Muslims vs progressive women resulted in a win for the Muslims in the first round. Stay tuned for round 2...ding,ding ding...hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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