Muslims demand Google destroy its content policies.

kraychik · October 16, 2012

I doubt it. Most people who migrate do so for economic reasons and I question whether or not they would actually let something like a piece of paper stand in the way of a better life (financially speaking). What we're talking about is a safety blanket for bedwetters like kraychik.

Right, because being concerned about how irresponsible immigration policies which will destroy our society if left alone makes me a crazy guy screaming on a street corner. You're completely missing the point, anyways, which is that as things stand now, we have NO screening based on values. Which is unsurprising, because our country is filled with people like you who struggle to actually articulate Canadian values.

DogOnPorch · October 16, 2012

Right, because being concerned about how irresponsible immigration policies which will destroy our society if left alone makes me a crazy guy screaming on a street corner. You're completely missing the point, anyways, which is that as things stand now, we have NO screening based on values. Which is unsurprising, because our country is filled with people like you who struggle to actually articulate Canadian values.

I think folks like BD are firmly in the "falafels make us a richer culture" crowd. Only a car bomb in their driveway would change their minds once set.

kraychik · October 16, 2012

I think folks like BD are firmly in the "falafels make us a richer culture" crowd. Only a car bomb in their driveway would change their minds once set.

Perhaps not even then. Consider that Christopher Stevens' father is stating that he doesn't want the death of his son to be "politicised", and that the mother of Glen Doherty (one of the former Navy SEALs murdered in the Benghazi attack) seemed to chastise Romney for mentioning his meeting with the man years ago once during his campaign. I will concede that this is somewhat tangential, but these are two recent and prominent examples of two people directly affected in the worst possible way, deaths of children, by irresponsible politics (Obama's commitment to a "low profile" presence in Libya). And even after that, they still cling to their leftism. Perhaps BlackDog is the same type of character.

Black Dog · October 16, 2012

Right, because being concerned about how irresponsible immigration policies which will destroy our society if left alone makes me a crazy guy screaming on a street corner.

No, it's your overall comportment on this board that make you MLW's crazy guy on the street corner. It's your general hysteria that makes you a bedwetter.

You're completely missing the point, anyways, which is that as things stand now, we have NO screening based on values. Which is unsurprising, because our country is filled with people like you who struggle to actually articulate Canadian values. [/Quote]
Nah, I'm pretty on-board with Canadian values. You might be a little out of step, though. But then are you actually Canadian?

Black Dog · October 16, 2012

I think folks like BD are firmly in the "falafels make us a richer culture" crowd. Only a car bomb in their driveway would change their minds once set.

You'd probably love that.

DogOnPorch · October 16, 2012

You'd probably love that.

From my own experience, car bombs hurt. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

October 16, 2012

It's the 57 some-odd member OIC that will be the real challenge to free speech. That's a big-azz voting block and I worry that out of the spirit of community cohesion, as the British term it, certain liberties enjoyed now will be curtailed for reasons of public safety.

Are you speaking of within Canada?

DogOnPorch · October 16, 2012

Are you speaking of within Canada?

Yes indeed. We're ripe for such things.

Black Dog · October 16, 2012

Of course it turns out we do screen immigrants for values, in a manner of speaking. Immigrants are required to take a citizenship test which includes questions on the rights and responsibilities of a citizen and Canadian social and cultural history and symbols. The Canadian Citizenship Guide emphasizes certain values, like the equality of women and the importance of freedom of speech, among others. So I'm not all that sure what more is required and what an effective values-based screening process would look like. Certainly we haven't really heard much detail on this proposal, but that's not much of a surprise.

October 16, 2012

Yes indeed. We're ripe for such things.

I thought so, and I fear you may be right. Instead of speaking out against such an outcome, it seems too many are only too willing to accept such a fate.

kraychik · October 16, 2012

Of course it turns out we do screen immigrants for values, in a manner of speaking. Immigrants are required to take a citizenship test which includes questions on the rights and responsibilities of a citizen and Canadian social and cultural history and symbols. The Canadian Citizenship Guide emphasizes certain values, like the equality of women and the importance of freedom of speech, among others. So I'm not all that sure what more is required and what an effective values-based screening process would look like. Certainly we haven't really heard much detail on this proposal, but that's not much of a surprise.

The citizenship test is NOT a screen for values. What's the point of getting into details when you not only reject the entire premise due to its lack of perfectibility, but don't even acknowledge the problem being discussed?

Bonam · October 16, 2012

The citizenship test is NOT a screen for values. What's the point of getting into details when you not only reject the entire premise due to its lack of perfectibility, but don't even acknowledge the problem being discussed?

Not to mention that the citizenship test is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. Even if it did screen for values. Despite the tricky and deceptive name of the test, which apparently causes some confusion, it is adminstered when someone applies for CITIZENSHIP, not for immigration. In fact, someone can be a permanent resident of Canada, live here and work here, without ever taking the test if they don't want to.

DogOnPorch · October 16, 2012

Of course it turns out we do screen immigrants for values, in a manner of speaking. Immigrants are required to take a citizenship test which includes questions on the rights and responsibilities of a citizen and Canadian social and cultural history and symbols. The Canadian Citizenship Guide emphasizes certain values, like the equality of women and the importance of freedom of speech, among others. So I'm not all that sure what more is required and what an effective values-based screening process would look like. Certainly we haven't really heard much detail on this proposal, but that's not much of a surprise.

That's a tad like the Senate Investigation Committee scene out of Godfather II.

Committee Member: Were you at any time a member of a crime organization headed by Michael Corleone?

Frank Pentangeli: I don't know nuthin' about that. Oh...I was in the olive oil business with his father...but, that was a long time ago. That's all.

Committee Member: We have a sworn affidavit. We have it. Your sworn affidavit...that you murdered on the orders of Michael Corleone! Do you deny your confession?

Frank Pentangeli: Look...the FBI guys promised me a deal. So I made up a lot of stuff about Michael Corleone.

Black Dog · October 16, 2012

The citizenship test is NOT a screen for values. What's the point of getting into details when you not only reject the entire premise due to its lack of perfectibility, but don't even acknowledge the problem being discussed?

Because, as another idiom goes, the devil is in the details. I don't think you have a clue on this.

Black Dog · October 16, 2012

Not to mention that the citizenship test is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. Even if it did screen for values. Despite the tricky and deceptive name of the test, which apparently causes some confusion, it is adminstered when someone applies for CITIZENSHIP, not for immigration. In fact, someone can be a permanent resident of Canada, live here and work here, without ever taking the test if they don't want to.

Fair point. OK, so tell me more about what you propose to screen based on values. How would it work? What would it look like?

kraychik · October 16, 2012

Fair point. OK, so tell me more about what you propose to screen based on values. How would it work? What would it look like?

So all of a sudden you're now pretending to actually care about the details of a solution to a problem you refuse to actually acknowledge.

Black Dog · October 16, 2012

So all of a sudden you're now pretending to actually care about the details of a solution to a problem you refuse to actually acknowledge.

How will we know if it's a solution to anything if you won't offer up any details?

Your ducking this speaks volumes. I'm sure your next move will be to talk about how you don't have time to bother with trying to educate leftists blah blah blah.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Black Dog

Bonam · October 16, 2012

Fair point. OK, so tell me more about what you propose to screen based on values. How would it work? What would it look like?

In my opinion, selecting immigrants should be based on a few factors:

1) Economic Benefit to Canada

- To prove economic benefit to Canada, a prospective immigrant to Canada should have a documented job offer for a permanent position with a Canadian employer. Said job should be paid at a wage no less than commensurate with what existing Canadians would generally be paid for that type of job. Any employer found to be issuing such job offers dishonestly without intent of honoring them would be fined heavily.

2) Fluency in Canada's Official Languages

- To prosper in Canada, immigrants should be able to communicate effectively with existing Canadians. Being able to listen and understand, speak, read, and write in English and/or French is crucial. A language test consisting of both oral and written components must be administered. Prospective immigrants who do not have a basic grasp of either language should not be allowed in. However, Canadian embassies should offer (or work with local institutions to offer) English and French language courses abroad (for a fee that pays the cost of the program) for prospective immigrants to take if they desire (where such courses aren't already widely available).

3) Criminal Record

- Anyone with a criminal record in their home country, except for crimes that Canada does not recognize as crimes, should be barred from entry to Canada. A detailed background investigation, paid for at the prospective immigrant's expense, would be required of all prospective immigrants.

4) A Values/Morals Test

- The test would have both a written and oral component, which would be designed to assess the prospective immigrant's values and whether they clash with the norms in Canada, such as gender equality, freedom of expression, etc. The results would be analyzed by professionals (psychologists, etc) trained to evaluate the results. I'll leave the detailed design of the test to professionals in the field since I am not well versed in it, but needless to say tests of a person's character that are relatively difficult to fool exist and are used by many organizations such as intelligence agencies for recruitment purposes. The test would only test for Canada's most fundamental universally agreed upon values, it would not be used to discriminate based on people's political ideology. The test must be passed by all adult prospective immigrants related to any immigrant petition (for example, if a family of a mother, father, 18 year old child, and 15 year old child apply, then each of the mother, father, and 18 year old would have to independently pass the test, even if the case for immigration is based solely on the father's job offer in Canada).

5) Health and Medical History

- A detailed check of the prospective immigrant's and all dependent's medical history must be done. No one with serious infectious diseases or hereditary disorders that will incur substantial costs to the healthcare system should be allowed in. The check should include mental health as well as physical health.

All 5 of the above steps must be succesfully completed prior to a prospective immigrant's physical entry into Canada (unless they are already in Canada in a non-immigrant capacity, such as a student). Failure of any step results in termination of the immigrant application, with possible appeal only at the prospective immigrant's expense.

Further, for the first x years (maybe 3-5) of the immigrant residing in Canada, they will be there on a "probationary" status. Violation of any of the 5 above conditions will cause a termination of the immigration procedure and require the propsective immigrant to return to their home country. That means if the prospective immigrant loses their job and does not promptly find another, is found not to have a basic grasp of French or English, commits a crime or has a crime discovered in their past, commits an act demonstrating disregard for Canada's basic values (like demanding limits to freedom of expression as in the OP), or contracts or is discovered to have a serious illness or medical disorder, then they (and any dependents) will be deported.

At the end of the 3-5 year probationary period the immigrant can apply for citizenship.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Bonam

bud · October 16, 2012

In my opinion, selecting immigrants should be based on a few factors:

1) Economic Benefit to Canada

2) Fluency in Canada's Official Languages

3) Criminal Record

4) A Values/Morals Test

5) Health and Medical History

At the end of the 3-5 year probationary period the immigrant can apply for citizenship.

you really need to learn a thing or two about canadian immigration before you come huffing and puffing with demands.

4 out of 5 of the above are already part of the immigration process for majority of the immigration programs.

in regards to the "value/moral" test; to me it sounds pretty stupid.

in regards to the path to citizenship; before you can become a citizen, you are a permanent resident. after having lived in canada for 3 out of 4 years, then you are eligible to apply to become a canadian citizen. which, itself, is a difficult task that includes a difficult citizenship test.

Bonam · October 16, 2012

you really need to learn a thing or two about canadian immigration before you come huffing and puffing with demands.

As an immigrant to Canada (and later to the US) myself, I know plenty about the immigration system, first hand. And yes, I am aware that the broad categories are already evaluated to some extent. Read the details.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Bonam

bud · October 16, 2012

As an immigrant to Canada (and later to the US) myself, I know plenty about the immigration system, first hand. And yes, I am aware that the broad categories are already evaluated to some extent. Read the details.

i read what you've written and as i said, they're mostly part of the majority of the immigration programs.

how did you come into canada? what program did you use?

Bonam · October 16, 2012

i read what you've written and as i said, they're mostly part of the majority of the immigration programs.

Then read again.

how did you come into canada? what program did you use?

Frankly, that is none of your business. I will say that I have been a citizen/resident of 4 different countries in my life so far, those being Russia, Israel, Canada, and the US.

bud · October 16, 2012

Then read again.

as i said, i read it and pretty much everything you're demanding is part of the main immigration programs already. this leads me to believe that you probably don't know much about canadian immigration programs. you probably got in the easy way; as a dependent, spouse or a refugee, where you don't need to write an english exam.

jacee · October 17, 2012

In my opinion, selecting immigrants should be based on a few factors:

1) Economic Benefit to Canada

- To prove economic benefit to Canada, a prospective immigrant to Canada should have a documented job offer for a permanent position with a Canadian employer. Said job should be paid at a wage no less than commensurate with what existing Canadians would generally be paid for that type of job. Any employer found to be issuing such job offers dishonestly without intent of honoring them would be fined heavily.

2) Fluency in Canada's Official Languages

- To prosper in Canada, immigrants should be able to communicate effectively with existing Canadians. Being able to listen and understand, speak, read, and write in English and/or French is crucial. A language test consisting of both oral and written components must be administered. Prospective immigrants who do not have a basic grasp of either language should not be allowed in. However, Canadian embassies should offer (or work with local institutions to offer) English and French language courses abroad (for a fee that pays the cost of the program) for prospective immigrants to take if they desire (where such courses aren't already widely available).

3) Criminal Record

- Anyone with a criminal record in their home country, except for crimes that Canada does not recognize as crimes, should be barred from entry to Canada. A detailed background investigation, paid for at the prospective immigrant's expense, would be required of all prospective immigrants.

4) A Values/Morals Test

- The test would have both a written and oral component, which would be designed to assess the prospective immigrant's values and whether they clash with the norms in Canada, such as gender equality, freedom of exp<b></b>ression, etc. The results would be analyzed by professionals (psychologists, etc) trained to evaluate the results. I'll leave the detailed design of the test to professionals in the field since I am not well versed in it, but needless to say tests of a person's character that are relatively difficult to fool exist and are used by many organizations such as intelligence agencies for recruitment purposes. The test would only test for Canada's most fundamental universally agreed upon values, it would not be used to discriminate based on people's political ideology. The test must be passed by all adult prospective immigrants related to any immigrant petition (for example, if a family of a mother, father, 18 year old child, and 15 year old child apply, then each of the mother, father, and 18 year old would have to independently pass the test, even if the case for immigration is based solely on the father's job offer in Canada).

5) Health and Medical History

- A detailed check of the prospective immigrant's and all dependent's medical history must be done. No one with serious infectious diseases or hereditary disorders that will incur substantial costs to the healthcare system should be allowed in. The check should include mental health as well as physical health.

All 5 of the above steps must be succesfully completed prior to a prospective immigrant's physical entry into Canada (unless they are already in Canada in a non-immigrant capacity, such as a student). Failure of any step results in termination of the immigrant application, with possible appeal only at the prospective immigrant's expense.

Further, for the first x years (maybe 3-5) of the immigrant residing in Canada, they will be there on a "probationary" status. Violation of any of the 5 above conditions will cause a termination of the immigration procedure and require the propsective immigrant to return to their home country. That means if the prospective immigrant loses their job and does not promptly find another, is found not to have a basic grasp of French or English, commits a crime or has a crime discovered in their past, commits an act demonstrating disregard for Canada's basic values (like demanding limits to freedom of exp<b></b>ression as in the OP), or contracts or is discovered to have a serious illness or medical disorder, then they (and any dependents) will be deported.

At the end of the 3-5 year probationary period the immigrant can apply for citizenship.

What about refugees from war, famine, violent regimes, etc?

bleeding heart · October 17, 2012

All I know is that I can't be bothered reading someone's posts if they put a lying, self-promoting chickenhawk (and someone who made lousy records in the 70's...does anyone listen to this shit today?) for an avatar! What does this tell us about rightwingers, that they hold up a guy who shit his pants before his draft board physical as a hero today?

He was no good in his best days, and had to kept churning out album after album that was the same as the last one, by acting dangerous and crazy back then. That was supposed to make him badass back when I was in high school. But when it's a 70 year old acting like a nut, it's time to take off to the home.

Not to mention his penchant for sexually-engaging little teenaged girls...an acitivity that he once actually boasted about, but has since grown silent on the matter, no thanks to the evils of "political correctness," presumably.