Who will end affirmative action?

[Guest Peeves]

Excerpts in quotes., more at link.

this week when the U.S. Supreme Court considered the case of Abigail Fisher, a white freshman who wanted to be educated by the University of Texas, and received an education in reality instead. In 2008, a University of Texas admission program that accepted black and Hispanic applicants with worse academic records than Ms. Fisher’s, rejected her. She sued, and the courts in Texas said, perhaps not in so many words but in essence: Yes, we realize the university rejected you because you’re white and accepted others because they aren’t,

http://fullcomment.n...rmative-action/

If you grant the intent of Title VI of the U.S. Civil Rights Act (see below in italics),

it hardly seems ambiguous as to intent , I think it states clearly that affirmative action is illegal. ????

"Race-conscious programs should be unlawful as well. Some laws are ambiguous, but Title VI of the U.S. Civil Rights Act is clear:"

Title VI of the U.S. Civil Rights Act

“No person in the United States shall,” it reads, “on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.”

Whether or not affirmative action is illegal is something for judges to decide; that it’s illiberal, is a given. Liberalism lets equality generate greater diversity spontaneously. Coercing diversity is like trying to create wealth by printing money.

Excerpt from here posted above in italics

Not much wiggle room here, I’d say. “No” means no; “no person” means no person; and for the list “race, color, or national origin” to mean anything, it must include blacks, whites, Asians, native Americans, Caucasians, Hispanics, and all other Earthlings.

So if a white girl with a higher academic grade is denied entry while an other with lower grade is accepted, is that discrimination? it would certainly seem to give all the appearance of discrimination would it not?

Edited October 14, 2012 by Peeves

[punked]

So if a white girl with a higher academic grade is denied entry while an other with lower grade is accepted, is that discrimination? it would certainly seem to give all the appearance of discrimination would it not?

Depends grade are not a full story of education. Does the white girl come from a school that has a 60% drop out in the population? Did the white girl spend 50 hours a week working to help make rent for her family and still get the grades she got? Did the white girl attend a school that gives out ipads, has update text books, and things like early reading recovery she was able to take advantage of? Grades are not the full story of success, I know of a man who got into University because of his father achieved a C minus average when he attended and still went on to be president of the United states. I think someones potential is a better way to judge them, then their grades, I know lots of A+ University students who are now just unemployed or underemployed members of society and those who did not do the best but learned a very different lesson at school and are now very successful.

[Guest Peeves]

Depends grade are not a full story of education. Does the white girl come from a school that has a 60% drop out in the population? Did the white girl spend 50 hours a week working to help make rent for her family and still get the grades she got? Did the white girl attend a school that gives out ipads, has update text books, and things like early reading recovery she was able to take advantage of? Grades are not the full story of success, I know of a man who got into University because of his father achieved a C minus average when he attended and still went on to be president of the United states. I think someones potential is a better way to judge them, then their grades, I know lots of A+ University students who are now just unemployed or underemployed members of society and those who did not do the best but learned a very different lesson at school and are now very successful.

So color trumps grades?

[Mr.Canada]

People should excel based on merit and merit alone. Race, religion, ethnicity, culture, socio-economic status all shouldn't matter at all. We need the best people for the job period.

[punked]

So color trumps grades?

Nope but circumstance does. Wouldn't you agree?

[Michael Hardner]

People should excel based on merit and merit alone.

What if anything should be done about the massive deficit that many people start out with ?

[Mr.Canada]

What if anything should be done about the massive deficit that many people start out with ?

What do you mean MH?

[Michael Hardner]

What do you mean MH?

For example, coming from an area that doesn't have adequate funding for education, that is underserved by government, that has rampant crime and/or social problems.

[Mr.Canada]

The drive and ambition of the student is what makes them excel not the surroundings. The best person for the job. No pandering, no favoritism, pure equality.

[Michael Hardner]

The drive and ambition of the student is what makes them excel not the surroundings. The best person for the job. No pandering, no favoritism, pure equality.

So we won't be doing anything about that massive deficit then ?

[Mr.Canada]

So we won't be doing anything about that massive deficit then ?

MH what the hell are you talking about? The financial deficit?

Stop speaking in riddles, it's doing my head in.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Mr.Canada

[Michael Hardner]

MH what the hell are you talking about? The financial deficit?

Stop speaking in riddles, it's doing my head in.

Potential students who come from areas that are underfunded, that have pervasive social problems - you're basically saying that's their problem to deal with.

[Mr.Canada]

Potential students who come from areas that are underfunded, that have pervasive social problems - you're basically saying that's their problem to deal with.

You're talking about ghetto people right? I guess underfunded is new pc code for ghetto or poor people.

Is there conclusive evidence that poor area schools are underfunded? Is there evidence that people who graduate with honors from poor schools aren't getting scholarships for posh schools?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I don't know. Also I'm not asking for you to do research for me. Yes or no will be fine.

I just don't like the idea of a poor white kid with a B average gets a position over a wealthy black kid who carries honors. I think that it needs to be merit based.

[punked]

I personally think that circumstances matter. For the good of society I would like the people who will be the most successful in life to get in. If that means tbe poor white kid who worked 40 hours a week AND went to school gets I am with lower grades then some rich kid whose parents hired him a tutor who did most his work anyway that might be the best decision for everyone involved.

[Mr.Canada]

I personally think that circumstances matter. For the good of society I would like the people who will be the most successful in life to get in. If that means tbe poor white kid who worked 40 hours a week AND went to school gets I am with lower grades then some rich kid whose parents hired him a tutor who did most his work anyway that might be the best decision for everyone involved.

Punked, I don't think that we can automatically assume that because someone was born "rich" that they will not work hard for grades. That just isn't fair. I'm sure that some "rich" kids work extremely hard for their grades because they are expected to get honours and anything less is deemed a failure by their parents.

[punked]

Punked, I don't think that we can automatically assume that because someone was born "rich" that they will not work hard for grades. That just isn't fair. I'm sure that some "rich" kids work extremely hard for their grades because they are expected to get honours and anything less is deemed a failure by their parents.

Some of them do. I am not saying they don't I am saying someone circumstances matter. Would you or would you not agree? You would prefer the poor kid who worked 40 hours a week, got a B average, and had no father to someone who has a B+ average and no story.

[Mr.Canada]

Some of them do. I am not saying they don't I am saying someone circumstances matter. Would you or would you not agree? You would prefer the poor kid who worked 40 hours a week, got a B average, and had no father to someone who has a B+ average and no story.

The world is a cold cruel place. This isn't a Hollywood script staring Will Smith. Merit is what people respect. Do you think that people want to get to a high position only because they are a statistic or because they earned it?

[Moonlight Graham]

The drive and ambition of the student is what makes them excel not the surroundings.

Not sure how I feel about affirmative action programs, since they are indeed racist, but the above is complete hogwash, and the academic research agrees with me.

The best person for the job. No pandering, no favoritism, pure equality.

Unfortunately, pure equality doesn't exist, and never has, and that's the problem. These kinds of programs, right or wrong, are trying to correct (in the case of women, blacks, aboriginals etc.) 500 years of racism and/or oppression, whose legacy is still greatly felt.

[Mr.Canada]

Unfortunately, pure equality doesn't exist, and never has, and that's the problem. These kinds of programs, right or wrong, are trying to correct (in the case of women, blacks, aboriginals etc.) 500 years of racism and/or oppression, whose legacy is still greatly felt.

So people today who had nothing to do with any mistreatment have to pay for it? That's outrageous. You don't solve racism with more racist policies.

[punked]

So people today who had nothing to do with any mistreatment have to pay for it? That's outrageous. You don't solve racism with more racist policies.

That is not the point. The point is potential. Which person has more potential and grades are not the only measurement of that.

[Guest]

Any discrimination for must necessarily discriminate against. I understand the need for redress, but I don't believe in paying for the sins of the Father.

[jacee]

The world is a cold cruel place. This isn't a Hollywood script staring Will Smith. Merit is what people respect. Do you think that people want to get to a high position only because they are a statistic or because they earned it?

Is human merit always assessed only numerically?

Do you trust those measurements without question?

Do you know the whole set of criteria for entry to that university?

It will be an interesting case.

[GostHacked]

Affirmative Action does not mean you are going to get the qualified people needed to do the job. Sure you may need to have a few minorities on the company payroll (I am Caucasian and from what I know now is that white people will be a minority soon enough) but are they qualified to do the job other than being a minority in which you have to hire?

I want people that can do the job, I would go on history and qualifications, not colour of their skin.

[Guest Peeves]

Nope but circumstance does. Wouldn't you agree?

Circumstance should certainly be factored by any with the decision of making choices, IF other qualities like grades are equal.

If there is an enrollment determined by grades, then that should be the determination, not weighted with race, sex, and incidental factors.

Laws on employment and education should not discriminate.

I would think that singling out candidates by giving a preference because you are a "__________" would be embarrassing and insulting.

Why? Because you are being considered as having less ability, quality, intellect, ambition and pride...just maybe?

[The_Squid]

The Harper government has had 10 years to reverse the "affirmative action" policies in the federal government. The only thing I can conclude is that the gov't is in favour of these kinds of hiring policies.

The Public Service of Canada is committed to building a skilled, diverse workforce reflective of Canadian society. As a result, it promotes employment equity and encourages candidates to indicate voluntarily on their application if they are a woman, an Aboriginal person, a person with a disability or a member of a visible minority group.

Check any government posting. That statement is included on the Job posting.