The Roma are coming, the Gypsies are coming!

[Michael Hardner]

There are a few posters who seem to be of the more left persuasion who constantly twist arguments to make the originator look like a bigot or a racist. They never directly deal with the substance but simply make ad hominem attacks on a poster's character.

To be fair, some of these cases involve the "offended" person either being afraid of the obvious character of their own words, or in some cases misunderstanding how analogies work.

I truly believe that the moderation of this board has become biased. It never seemed to be this way a couple of years ago.

It seems to me you're talking about a situation that happened where I recused myself and walked away from a discussion because one of the posters was offended. As such, it's pretty ungracious to take such a stance IMO.

[Guest Peeves]

To be fair, some of these cases involve the "offended" person either being afraid of the obvious character of their own words, or in some cases misunderstanding how analogies work.

It seems to me you're talking about a situation that happened where I recused myself and walked away from a discussion because one of the posters was offended. As such, it's pretty ungracious to take such a stance IMO.

I think MY stance is clear. I think I said what was needed. I who have been given warning points See my profile for innocuous benign posts such as,

Warning issued by for Other in Unknown.

Given 1 points.

You must put more effort into starting a discussion. A few provocative sentences is not good enough.

This is the second time that you are warned about this.

Sad huh? for THAT I got a couple of warning points.

I see rampant nasty unsupportable accusations of my use of hate thrown at me by a poster with impunity.Only when I reply to get attention is there a response.

I above all and any object to censorship and want restraint on any restrictions of subject, but that does not extend to personal insult.

Latitude is needed for frank deliberation, but not for ignorant personal attack.

Now it will not bother me if my stalker friend continues on the same tactic, for I consider he and those alike as naught but gad flies and mental deficients, and will ignore. They certainly don't inhibit my posting nor my attitude but for a second taken to swat them. But,they do diminish the forum and content. They're noting but poor mentally impotent pissants

I say "Lay on, Macduff, And damn'd be him that first cries, 'Hold, enough!'", but some more squeamish might be intimidated.

[Wild Bill]

I see rampant nasty unsupportable accusations of my use of hate thrown at me by a poster with impunity.Only when I reply to get attention is there a response.

I above all and any object to censorship and want restraint on any restrictions of subject, but that does not extend to personal insult.

I say "Lay on, Macduff, And damn'd be him that first cries, 'Hold, enough!'", but some more squeamish might be intimidated.

Well said, Peeves. I am not so much surprised as saddened that you got a warning for such a post. It would seem that the fact that a poster expresses a non-liberal view or at least, one that is not politically correct, is taken as bigotted or racist by definition. It's almost Orwellian.

However, I guess I am squeamish! Your reaction is to fight. My inclination is to simply leave. There are some posters we have not heard from in some time. I wonder if there's any connection.

Either way, I think it's a symptom of a very real problem. I would never want to see MLW become a rightwing extremist board. However, it seems to be slowly drifting to becoming a leftwing one, where you are not just wrong but downright evil for disagreeing with the politically correct POV.

[Guest Peeves]

Well said, Peeves. I am not so much surprised as saddened that you got a warning for such a post. It would seem that the fact that a poster expresses a non-liberal view or at least, one that is not politically correct, is taken as bigotted or racist by definition. It's almost Orwellian.

However, I guess I am squeamish! Your reaction is to fight. My inclination is to simply leave. There are some posters we have not heard from in some time. I wonder if there's any connection.

Either way, I think it's a symptom of a very real problem. I would never want to see MLW become a rightwing extremist board. However, it seems to be slowly drifting to becoming a leftwing one, where you are not just wrong but downright evil for disagreeing with the politically correct POV.

I doubt that those profile posters left other than for their personal reporting was no longer accepted. 'Management' here has chosen correctly in my view to allow more divergent views and some that were a clique of sorts left in a huff (as I see it), not due to insult but ego.

I find extremists that attack as you reference, to be detrimental to both discussion and membership. It's time tat personal insult was dealt with. Not censorship, control to a degree of parameters on insult for insult sake. I have little respect for some that have tunnel vision and that defend their position, but, I do have respect even if it's only en passant.

I have no respect at all for the likes of the creeps that simply toss insulting remarks, or, for any that encourage or that simply dismiss the egregious behavior by allowing it to continue with impunity.

[jacee]

If you cannot debate the subject with reason, with fact, with references,you should abandon any attempt at participating...subject of course to possibly interjecting a humorist comment.

Ahhh ... so this was not an attack on the poster (me), but "a humourist comment" ?

I hear you are trying to give up pedophilia.

I guess I just don't appreciate your 'quirky' sense of humour.

[Michael Hardner]

Now that you have had your say about the moderation here... can we return to the thread now ?

It sounds like the other stuff should go in another thread.

[Guest Peeves]

Now that you have had your say about the moderation here... can we return to the thread now ?

It sounds like the other stuff should go in another thread.

The 'other stuff' is of little consequence, as to complaints, I have very few to none.

I added an update on point today. That will be my continuation of the Roma issue. I'm sure it won't go away.

[Guest Peeves]

Obviously any group of criminals are unsuitable as immigrants, and if from a democratic country unlikely candidates for refugee status. That anyone can claim facts in evidence are just racist is disingenuous.

"Although the number of Romanian refugee claimants is small, the sources said the smuggling ring was sophisticated and had been linked to a crime ring dismantled east of Toronto last month.

Thirty-four suspects were accused of involvement in a crime group that targeted convenience stores, jewelers and seniors. As one suspect distracted the victims, the others would steal goods, stuffing them into pockets sewn into their clothing.

Police estimated the suspects had collected over $2-million in social assistance benefits since January. Investigators identified more than $1-million in suspicious wire transfer overseas. More than 260 charges were laid.

Durham Regional PoliceDurham police officers show merchandise they say was stolen by suspects in an alleged human smuggling ring.

Sgt. Nancy van Rooy, the Durham Regional Police Service spokeswoman, confirmed some of the suspects were in the country illegally and had apparently committed crimes to repay their debts to the smugglers that brought them to Canada.

“They had come into the country and they had paid to arrive illegally and therefore part of their agreement was to cooperate and participate in criminal activity as a means of repayment,” she said Thursday.

[Fletch 27]

$2 Million in social assitance payments and 1Million sent back overseas... The will be no outcry from the Left here as they will assume the 1MIllion was sent through "Canada post" and emloyed a union member.

[Guest Peeves]

$2 Million in social assitance payments and 1Million sent back overseas... The will be no outcry from the Left here as they will assume the 1MIllion was sent through "Canada post" and emloyed a union member.

There is no left, didn't you get the memo? There are only those in office, and the losers that ignore the elective results.

I simply feel an obligation like you to 'out' criminal and phony refugee claims and the added taxes foisted on the public.After all we do have to pay for playing chess with power plants.

[Fletch 27]

Its ok! The left say there are LOTS of tax dollars that are unaccounted for! Im afraid its just what is left in my wallet! Screw the power-Plants and the waste! We have bigger things to take good care of... Like our phony refugee claimants and thier freh set of new teeth! We cant have them going through the appeals process with nasty teeth!

[guyser]

Obviously any group of criminals are unsuitable as immigrants, and if from a democratic country unlikely candidates for refugee status.

Gee , ya think?

(not like anyone has said otherwise)

[Guest Peeves]

Gee , ya think?

(not like anyone has said otherwise)

"Obviously any group of criminals are unsuitable as immigrants, and if from a democratic country unlikely candidates for refugee status."

Indeed I do, and still there are those that would scream racist- bigot, if you dare point out any need based on facts.

[guyser]

Indeed I do, and still there are those that would scream racist- bigot, if you dare point out any need based on facts.

There are those who think the world is flat.

None her mind you, same as your statement, none would disagree.

Psst,,,,water's wet.

[Guest Peeves]

There are those who think the world is flat.

None her mind you, same as your statement, none would disagree.

Psst,,,,water's wet.

As are the backs of some ears.

[Argus]

To be fair, some of these cases involve the "offended" person either being afraid of the obvious character of their own words, or in some cases misunderstanding how analogies work.

I wonder, Michael, if you've ever actually read the policies on insults. They're pretty clear in that you're supposed to 'play the ball, not the man'.

Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person’s character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions.

Now as an example, a poster said, a couple of weeks back, that they wished Canada was a fascist state. I didn't call them names. I asked questions about what they thought a fascist state would be like. By the same example, if a poster says something like "blacks are inferior" the proper response would be something along the lines of "what evidence do you have of this?" Of course, few of the statements deemed 'racist' by some of the more sensitive here, including you, are anything near as bald faced as that. And yet here you are, instead of saying "play the ball" to people (including yourself) suggesting instead that people should expect to be insulted if they are deemed to be 'racist', or making racist statements.

Is that the position a facilitator should be taking?

[

It seems to me you're talking about a situation that happened where I recused myself and walked away from a discussion because one of the posters was offended. As such, it's pretty ungracious to take such a stance IMO.

I've said often that the moderating here is biased, and I wasn't referring to you.

[Michael Hardner]

Of course, few of the statements deemed 'racist' by some of the more sensitive here, including you, are anything near as bald faced as that. And yet here you are, instead of saying "play the ball" to people (including yourself) suggesting instead that people should expect to be insulted if they are deemed to be 'racist', or making racist statements.

It states that it's ok to criticize a comment. I don't feel that calling someone a liberal or conservative is an insult, and if somebody makes blatantly racist statements, maybe they're proud of their position - who knows ?

Generally, I would say calling someone is a racist is playing the man as you say. But calling someone's statements racist seems to make certain types flip out ... or even using an analogy to racism (not at all the same thing) can make people gasp for air, it seems. I'm not offended or shocked by racists, nor do I moralize about them any more. I don't share their values, and that's all I can say about it.

Your comments are welcome, as usual.

[Argus]

Generally, I would say calling someone is a racist is playing the man as you say. But calling someone's statements racist seems to make certain types flip out ... or even using an analogy to racism (not at all the same thing) can make people gasp for air, it seems. I'm not offended or shocked by racists, nor do I moralize about them any more. I don't share their values, and that's all I can say about it.

An indirect insult can still be an insult.

You know, I used to know a guy I did my level best to get worked up about things. Impossible. He was a philosophy student, and quite left of centre. I tried taking the most extreme positions possible, and nothing ever riled him, nor did he ever insult me, even indirectly. I could say something along the lines of "I think we should bring in concentration camps to exterminate the less desirable elements", and he'd kind of nod, and steeple his fingers, and say "Well, let's consider the implications of that." and discuss the ramifications and problems of that as a policy. He never got into the morality of such things. It was all just a logical discussion on this or that. I wish I had the restraint to emulate him more often, and I wish there was a moderated site which required everyone to try for that level of discourse.

[cybercoma]

I agree with Argus.This site is the closest I've found to that, but still far away from that standard.

[Wild Bill]

It states that it's ok to criticize a comment. I don't feel that calling someone a liberal or conservative is an insult, and if somebody makes blatantly racist statements, maybe they're proud of their position - who knows ?

Generally, I would say calling someone is a racist is playing the man as you say. But calling someone's statements racist seems to make certain types flip out ... or even using an analogy to racism (not at all the same thing) can make people gasp for air, it seems. I'm not offended or shocked by racists, nor do I moralize about them any more. I don't share their values, and that's all I can say about it.

Your comments are welcome, as usual.

Here we see one strong factor that has upset me, Michael. You have a very politically correct opinion on what makes a statement racist!

It seems that if someone makes a comment based on statistics or evidence that a culture has negative aspects, such as some Islamist cultures in particular, you immediately take that to be a racial slam on the people who live in those cultures.

This view of yours has no valid logic behind it at all! Many times I have read your responses to such posts and I have come to believe that any negative comment towards anyone who likely is not caucasian is enough for you to brand them racist! Or at the very least, you dismiss their point as being some veiled attempt at establishing some racist position. You take a comment about a trait practiced by some or many in a culture to be an attack on ALL of them, even those who may have been born and nurtured elsewhere!

This has upset me because I see it as such an enormous stretch I have a hard time believing you are sincere.

Meanwhile certain members who I will not name in this thread but would be happy to cite for you privately have been blatantly personally insulting for months. We see no sign of any corrective action. Instead, you are likely to censure a victim for retaliating or nit-pick about thread drift.

I understand your job is not always an easy one. I am just suggesting you work a bit harder to keep your own prejudices from influencing your judgement.

For the record, I do not believe I have EVER made any statement on MLW that was racist! I think your own bias may have made you stretch logic to absurdity and take it that way.

When someone even implies that I am a racist or even that I hold views that I am too stupid to understand are racist I take that as a deep and personal insult!

As I said, I understand you have a difficult job but I think you may be trivializing insulting behavior from some posters because they share many of your own politically correct views. You do not always see them as the harsh insults that they are indeed. Meanwhile, your same biases can make you hyper-sensitive to comments posted that disagree with your own world view.

I believe that freedom lies in people posting any cockamamie thing they want, IN A CIVIL AND COURTEOUS MANNER! A little less worry about a view being politically correct and a bit more about someone being out and out RUDE might be all we need.

We need the judgement of Solomon, not Ned Flanders!

[Michael Hardner]

Here we see one strong factor that has upset me, Michael. You have a very politically correct opinion on what makes a statement racist!

It seems that if someone makes a comment based on statistics or evidence that a culture has negative aspects, such as some Islamist cultures in particular, you immediately take that to be a racial slam on the people who live in those cultures.

I'm not concerned about the morality of racial statements, but more about the different levels of logical fallacies that accompany that kind of thinking.

I'm not looking to accuse anybody, or offend anybody but to make them think about the logic or illogic that follows the statements. If I can't do that without offending someone, then I suppose I have failed.

This view of yours has no valid logic behind it at all! Many times I have read your responses to such posts and I have come to believe that any negative comment towards anyone who likely is not caucasian is enough for you to brand them racist!

I went back and read the offending thread again. I did not see anything that I wrote that accused you of being a racist. I was trying to determine what the difference is between discriminating against *some* ethnicity/cultures and not others. I pretty clearly said in there that you did not discriminate against African Americans, as well so I think you misunderstood me.

I was just trying to understand your logic.

Or at the very least, you dismiss their point as being some veiled attempt at establishing some racist position. You take a comment about a trait practiced by some or many in a culture to be an attack on ALL of them, even those who may have been born and nurtured elsewhere!

I dismissed nothing. I didn't read all the way through the thread (22 pages !) but I read to the point where you became offended. As far as I can see, I was asking questions about your point of view and I offended you somehow - I think because you misunderstood what I was saying.

Meanwhile certain members who I will not name in this thread but would be happy to cite for you privately have been blatantly personally insulting for months. We see no sign of any corrective action. Instead, you are likely to censure a victim for retaliating or nit-pick about thread drift.

I can only cajole people - I have no ability to take corrective action. I hit 'Report' just like anybody. If you see an offense, please report it.

For the record, I do not believe I have EVER made any statement on MLW that was racist! I think your own bias may have made you stretch logic to absurdity and take it that way.

I don't think you made a racist statement either. What i did think... well... I don't want to go there because, as I said, I value our dialogues. I can only guess that there was a miscommunication.

When someone even implies that I am a racist or even that I hold views that I am too stupid to understand are racist I take that as a deep and personal insult!

If you want me to revisit what I was confused about in your statements, I will - but only if you ask me to.

As I said, I understand you have a difficult job but I think you may be trivializing insulting behavior from some posters because they share many of your own politically correct views. You do not always see them as the harsh insults that they are indeed. Meanwhile, your same biases can make you hyper-sensitive to comments posted that disagree with your own world view.

I don't consider myself 'politically correct'. I consider my views logical and polite. Where politeness and logic clash, I say nothing and choose to remain silent and polite.

We need the judgement of Solomon, not Ned Flanders!

I will admit, it's not the first time I have been called that.

[Wild Bill]

I will admit, it's not the first time I have been called that.

And I will admit Michael, that while I have some issues with what has come from your head I DO believe you mean well in your heart!

Sans peur et sans reproche?

BTW, have you noticed how some of the worst offenders with bad manners are strangely silent in this portion of the thread?

[Argus]

I went back and read the offending thread again. I did not see anything that I wrote that accused you of being a racist. I was trying to determine what the difference is between discriminating against *some* ethnicity/cultures and not others. I pretty clearly said in there that you did not discriminate against African Americans, as well so I think you misunderstood me.

I think one of the issues involved in these sorts of things is that some people seem to believe discrimination, prejudice, bigotry and racism are all the same thing. They're not. Sometimes the difference can be subtle, and sometimes quite large. But too many on the left seem to believe they're all synonyms. That's one of the issues. The other is that any negative judgement of a different cultural group, regardless of the reasons (valid or not) for that judgement, inevitably draws one or more of the words above into the conversation. And the use of these words might or might nor be valid. But it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some. Dennis Miller once spoke of his distaste for world Islam and its homophobia, misogyny, violence, and religious fanaticism by stating "Prejudice means to pre-judge. I'm not pre-judging them, I'm judging them."

Edited October 27, 2012 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

I think one of the issues involved in these sorts of things is that some people seem to believe discrimination, prejudice, bigotry and racism are all the same thing. They're not. Sometimes the difference can be subtle, and sometimes quite large. But too many on the left seem to believe they're all synonyms. That's one of the issues.

How about some examples then ? And even better would be an example of a MLW post where someone misused one of those terms.

The other is that any negative judgement of a different cultural group, regardless of the reasons (valid or not) for that judgement, inevitably draws one or more of the words above into the conversation. And the use of these words might or might nor be valid. But it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some. Dennis Miller once spoke of his distaste for world Islam and its homophobia, misogyny, violence, and religious fanaticism by stating "Prejudice means to pre-judge. I'm not pre-judging them, I'm judging them."

Nobody can censor thoughts, or opinions. The laws of Canada don't do that either.

But when it comes to policy ramifications, these things matter. It's not popular, practical or proper to make policy based on discrimination that is explicitly prohibited by our constitution. The illogic of those proposals, together with the illogic of some of the ideas that posters here have - that's what we end up talking about much of the time. Sometimes, people claim that they're just stating their opinions as in "I don't like those people" in which case I point out that there's no discussion to be had at all.

[bleeding heart]

If you chose to lie about me with impunity, I will tell the truth about you. I hear you are trying to give up pedophilia?

I wouldn't be too promiscuous with the use of this insult. It goes too far...and the genuine victims of molestation, here on this board, don't really need to be subjected to this silliness.

Anyway, now you can't complain about being subjected to insutls any more, as you've just decided to top them all. Congratulations.

Edited October 27, 2012 by bleeding heart