The morality of breasts

[Guest Manny]

Looking at women and appreciating them for their appearance goes back to the beginning of time. That's how the word works. Women who dress in fancy clothes or skimpy clothes want people to look at them. Otherwise there is no reason to dress that way.

[Argus]

So if now you are removing that aspect from your original comments, it becomes a different discussion - and I have to wonder what the point of it would be.

First, I think the context of my OP was clear to virtually everyone.

Second, it's about the dehumanizing of institutional culture, and the attempt to make the normal, instinctual behaviour of men seem immoral.

No. Some tops are tighter on women because they have bigger breasts and sometimes a normal cut top tends to show some cleavage at times. Also, women may like the clothes they are wearing, and wear them for that reason; not to attract the attention of men.

I don't buy it. You know what a top looks like before you go outside. You know if it's going to be tight and low cut. If you wear it then you know it's going to draw attention to your chest. If you wear it then you're accepting this, even if not actively seeking it.

...rightfully so. She's not there for your viewing pleasure.

And yet, nature designed her to be.

[BC_chick]

And who made up the rules on morality? Frumpy, overweight middle aged women?

No I think Kimmy best answers this...

I don't think women mind it when men notice their breasts. I do think women mind when men are creepy about it. There's a line somewhere and it's hard to pinpoint exactly where it is, but the guy who keeps staring at your chest is definitely on the wrong side of it.

I think that most women of all ages and shapes would agree that there is a difference between noticing breasts and staring at them.

Noticing breasts is very natural, women do it too. I do it and I notice other women noticing mine. No big deal.

If you're trying to make a point that older women are jealous of younger women, perhaps it's true of some older women.

I would disagree though that the younger women's attire is the predominant reason behind it. Many older women who envy younger women are not the frumpy overweight type, they have great bodies and wear revealing clothes themselves.

It's a bigger societal issue at work. Youth is difficult thing to let go. Goes for many men too.

[Guest American Woman]

First, I think the context of my OP was clear to virtually everyone.

Obviously it wasn't, since others have questioned the "looking at" vs. "ogling/staring" aspect of it. I still think you're all over the place regarding the two behaviors.

Second, it's about the dehumanizing of institutional culture, and the attempt to make the normal, instinctual behaviour of men seem immoral.

Men may have instincts, but they also have a brain. It's your mindset that leads so many women to believe that too many men think with their dicks, not their brains. In other words, you may have "instincts" that make you want to ogle women's breasts where ever you may be, but you also have a brain that should tell you when it's ok and when it's not. It should also help you have some self control.

It should also tell you that a young woman (as you yourself defined as late teens/early 20's) might find it less than desirable that a "frumpy, overweight, unattractive middle aged" man is ogling her breasts in the workplace. If you can't control that part of your "instincts," that is a problem on your end, and it appears to me as if you're seeking validation for men not taking control in such situations.

I don't buy it. You know what a top looks like before you go outside. You know if it's going to be tight and low cut. If you wear it then you know it's going to draw attention to your chest. If you wear it then you're accepting this, even if not actively seeking it.

Ummm. No. Women are not all "accepting" this, much less actively seeking it. Some women expect grown men to have some control over their "instincts," and they are not out of line for expecting it - especially from every man who happens to cross their path.

And believe it or not, women aren't required to do acrobatics in the mirror from every angle in order to determine if some man is going to be able to "ogle" her breasts if she moves this way or that way or sits in such a way that a man may be looking down at her and able to see her breasts. Also, unless wearing a turtle neck, sometimes the way a woman moves might show a bit of cleavage. That doesn't mean she's welcoming the ogling stares of every man in the vicinity.

A woman also has the right to dress in clothes that she finds attractive and fashionable without "accepting and/or seeking" ogling from every man she comes into contact with.

And yet, nature designed her to be.

And your point is? That you have no self control?

[Bonam]

Looking is natural. Looking for too long is impolite. That's all there really is to it.

[Jiblethead]

Looking is natural. Looking for too long is impolite. That's all there really is to it.

agreed. if a woman feels like she is being harassed by males staring at her tits, then it is up to her to do something about it.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Women love to be stared at.

But only by hot men, or men they may be attracted to.

That is the problem.

1) Be Handsome

2) Be Attractive

3) Don't be unattactive

It's been confirmed on many occasions through various discussions of women.

"I hate when guys just stair at my breasts... unless I like the guy."

"It's so creepy when guys stare at me, unless I think he's hot"

Edited September 29, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Bonam]

I was looking for exactly that video to link earlier. Couldn't remember the name though, was so long ago that I saw it. So true.

[Guest American Woman]

I was looking for exactly that video to link earlier. Couldn't remember the name though, was so long ago that I saw it. So true.

"So true."

Not quite.

[Melanie_]

agreed. if a woman feels like she is being harassed by males staring at her tits, then it is up to her to do something about it.

Somewhere today I said welcome to the forum, Jiblethead. I take it back.

[Guest American Woman]

agreed. if a woman feels like she is being harassed by males staring at her tits, then it is up to her to do something about it.

Like kick them in the nuts? Or did you mean more along the lines of filing a complaint with Human Resources?

[Bonam]

Like kick them in the nuts?

That would be appropriate. Might be the most action some of them get that day anyway...

[Guest Manny]

Chick shows up in a bikini at the office. "You boys stop starin at my tits, or I'll call the supervisor."

[Mr.Canada]

If a woman is wearing a tight shirt with a push up bra I'm going to look, I cannot help it. A glance yes, anything more? No. That is creepy.

[Guest Manny]

If a woman is wearing a tight shirt with a push up bra I'm going to look, I cannot help it. A glance yes, anything more? No. That is creepy.

You would be doing the right thing because, that's what she wants men to do! Think how disappointed she would be if no one looked!

[Guest American Woman]

Chick shows up in a bikini at the office. "You boys stop starin at my tits, or I'll call the supervisor."

Because of course a "chick shows up in a bikini at the office" so often; offices have no dress codes, and this is what women choose to wear to work in the office, expecting no one to stare. As a side note, I think men would stare at a man who showed in a speedo at the office, too.

[Mr.Canada]

Because of course a "chick shows up in a bikini at the office" so often; offices have no dress codes, and this is what women choose to wear to work in the office, expecting no one to stare. As a side note, I think men would stare at a man who showed in a speedo at the office, too.

Yes I agree. My wife works in an office and their are definite dress codes involved. Some cleavage is acceptable but not too much. Women and probably some guys...(lol)look at me all the time because I'm very fit, I don't do anything about it and don't take offense to it so why should women. It's a compliment.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Mr.Canada

[Argus]

I'm not sure where you people are writing in from, but in my experience, NO ONE stares openly at a woman's breasts unless he's really drunk or deliberately being insulting. And, in fact, in the harassment sessions and discussions held at our workplace and union harassment is generally much more widely defined. I saw a video, for example, where a woman is talking to a man. His eyes flick downward to her chest, then back up. Apparently, if this happens more than once it's harassment. Even once can be borderline harassment. I was also talking to a good friend this afternoon, female, 44, and to her, even noticing a young girl's attractiveness is wrong if you're middle aged. She says she used to find it creepy when middle aged men looked at her. So we're not talking about 'staring' but simply noticing.

[Bonam]

I saw a video, for example, where a woman is talking to a man. His eyes flick downward to her chest, then back up. Apparently, if this happens more than once it's harassment. Even once can be borderline harassment.

Absurd. Any workplace with rules like that wouldn't have any male employees left inside a week. Heck, probably not many female employees left either, they glance at each other's bodies too.

[Guest American Woman]

I saw a video, for example, where a woman is talking to a man. His eyes flick downward to her chest, then back up. Apparently, if this happens more than once it's harassment. Even once can be borderline harassment. I was also talking to a good friend this afternoon, female, 44, and to her, even noticing a young girl's attractiveness is wrong if you're middle aged. She says she used to find it creepy when middle aged men looked at her. So we're not talking about 'staring' but simply noticing.

I think you're the only one talking about simply noticing.

[msj]

I saw a video, for example, where a woman is talking to a man. His eyes flick downward to her chest, then back up.

Maybe it was this one:

[Bonam]

Haha

[Guest Manny]

Because of course a "chick shows up in a bikini at the office" so often; offices have no dress codes, and this is what women choose to wear to work in the office, expecting no one to stare. As a side note, I think men would stare at a man who showed in a speedo at the office, too.

And that's why they do have dress codes, right? So that people don't get distracted from their work. Because otherwise they know what's gonna happen. It's human nature for the girls to want to show it, and for the guys to want to look at it.

If a lady wants guys to check out her "goods", that's what she will do. She will dress accordingly, and expect that the "hot" guys are going to check her out. Naturally it's gross to her if some old/unattractive guy is looking at her. Then he's "leering". But if it was a young handsome guy checking her out, what's she gonna do? Put on airs. It's human nature. It's unfair to say, you're not allowed to LOOK at her because you're not attractive enough as a man.

Now having said that, everything should have its proper time and place, and the workplace often has these rules. Women can't help it that they have boobs, but they can help it not to show them off if they don't want them looked at. Simple. I know you probably won't like that. You admitted it, that's why workplaces have a dress code.

[Guest American Woman]

And that's why they do have dress codes, right? So that people don't get distracted from their work.

I think it's more with professionalism in mind, not to protect men from being distracted by women's breasts.

Because otherwise they know what's gonna happen. It's human nature for the girls to want to show it, and for the guys to want to look at it.

Riiiight. But for dress codes, women would be coming to work in bikinis or whatever would best reveal their bodies to the men in the office to gawk at. It's human nature.

If a lady wants guys to check out her "goods", that's what she will do. She will dress accordingly, and expect that the "hot" guys are going to check her out. Naturally it's gross to her if some old/unattractive guy is looking at her. Then he's "leering". But if it was a young handsome guy checking her out, what's she gonna do? Put on airs. It's human nature. It's unfair to say, you're not allowed to LOOK at her because you're not attractive enough as a man.

No one is allowed to make a woman feel uncomfortable; that's the bottom line. It's not about "fairness" to the men, it's about fairness to the women who are being "checked out/ogled/leered at" by men in the workforce. If you want to believe all women want "hot men" checking them out, so be it, but that doesn't make it the reality. Furthermore, many a "hot guy" is a pompous jerk who thinks he's God's gift to women, and women who aren't all taken in solely by looks realize that and aren't any happier with them leering at their breasts than they are with "a dirty old man."

Now having said that, everything should have its proper time and place, and the workplace often has these rules. Women can't help it that they have boobs, but they can help it not to show them off if they don't want them looked at.

Women can choose to wear whatever they like within the dress code, and men can exercise some self control to keep their leering in check.

Simple. I know you probably won't like that. You admitted it, that's why workplaces have a dress code.

Yeah, again, that's why.

[Bonam]

No one is allowed to make a woman feel uncomfortable; that's the bottom line.

Really? What about men, is anyone allowed to make them feel uncomfortable?

Sorry but there are no laws in our society that prevent one from making someone else feel uncomfortable. Free speech on controversial topics can make people feel uncomfortable too, but it's protected.

Harassment is one thing, making someone feel uncomfortable is something else. And any workplace that reprimands people for making someone "feel uncomfortable" isn't going to last long. Unless it's a government agency of course.

It's not about "fairness" to the men, it's about fairness to the women who are being "checked out/ogled/leered at" by men in the workforce.

So fairness only applies to women? How fair is it to accuse someone whose eyes accidentally flick down to someone else's chest for a fraction of a second of harassment and potentially ruin their career?

Women can choose to wear whatever they like within the dress code, and men can exercise some self control to keep their leering in check.

Only you are talking about "leering".

Edited September 29, 2012 by Bonam