Fired Teacher Hired - Unbelievable

[socialist]

This is why private schools are crap. a teacher who broke important rules and snubbed his nose at his bosses gets a job at a private school. it sickens me to see this happen. this guy should never be allowed to teach again after his coldness of giving his learners zeros.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/lynden-dorval-captain-zero/

Edited September 21, 2012 by socialist

[GostHacked]

This is why private schools are crap. a teacher who broke important rules and snubbed his nose at his bosses gets a job at a private school. it sickens me to see this happen. this guy should never be allowed to teach again after his coldness of giving his learners zeros.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/lynden-dorval-captain-zero/

Actually I am quite pleased this man got another job in a school. This is a real teacher, and actions, or in the case of some students, inaction have consequences. So what if he gave them all 1%, would we hear people bitch and complain?

You don't do the work, you get a zero. I missed one assignment, got a zero, got in a lot of crap from my parents, and I had to still do the project .. and still got a zero. Lessons need to be learned.

[westguy]

This is why private schools are crap. a teacher who broke important rules and snubbed his nose at his bosses gets a job at a private school. it sickens me to see this happen. this guy should never be allowed to teach again after his coldness of giving his learners zeros.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/lynden-dorval-captain-zero/

this teacher stood up for what he thought was right rather than obediently follow a nonsensical direction

[Signals.Cpl]

I don't see how anyone can support such a stupid policy, a person does not go to work, they don't get paid and could be fired. An employer will not care about your feelings but will simply care about results, don't do the work and you don't get paid and if this idiotic trend were to continue then kids will go to the real world and find that they have been screwed by the system because they are uncompetative and have no idea how the world works. Some one needs to take the "educators" who support this idea and give them a tour of the real world where you don't do the work you don't get the reward.

[madmax]

this teacher stood up for what he thought was right rather than obediently follow a nonsensical direction

It takes courage to do something you believe is the right thing to do and risk your job in doing so.

I'd say the school board that fired him overreacted if this is the reason for being fired.

[Guest Peeves]

This is why private schools are crap. a teacher who broke important rules and snubbed his nose at his bosses gets a job at a private school. it sickens me to see this happen. this guy should never be allowed to teach again after his coldness of giving his learners zeros.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/lynden-dorval-captain-zero/

It might be from your point of view, but from mine he and the private school are reasonable rational in terms of a sensible society. The alternative policy, the one he stood up to, is nonsensical. Kudos to he and his new employer. I'm certainly glad he brought this grading nonsense to light.

[sharkman]

This is why private schools are crap. a teacher who broke important rules and snubbed his nose at his bosses gets a job at a private school. it sickens me to see this happen. this guy should never be allowed to teach again after his coldness of giving his learners zeros.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/lynden-dorval-captain-zero/

This makes me go

[madmax]

This is why private schools are crap. a teacher who broke important rules and snubbed his nose at his bosses gets a job at a private school. it sickens me to see this happen. this guy should never be allowed to teach again after his coldness of giving his learners zeros.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/lynden-dorval-captain-zero/

Why would you disparage a teacher with 35 years of experience...... I value a teacher with that much experience and I am NO FAN OF PRIVATE SCHOOLS!!!

When Peter Mitchell, the headmaster of a small academic private school in Edmonton, scouted for a new physics teacher, he found the perfect candidate in the newspaper. Lynden Dorval made headlines when he was fired for refusing to comply with his public school’s “no-zero” policy. Mr. Mitchell saw a teacher with passion, standards, and 35 years experience.

[Michael Hardner]

Would those defending this teacher be as vocal if they didn't agree with his POV of assigning zeros ?

If you're defending him as some kind of educational conscientious objector, would you defend him on a different point ?

[madmax]

Would those defending this teacher be as vocal if they didn't agree with his POV of assigning zeros ?

If you're defending him as some kind of educational conscientious objector, would you defend him on a different point ?

Valid Question.

Previously we have seen teachers fired over conflict with human rights, promoting anti semitism or challenging/denying the holocaust.

Therefore, it is obviously taken on a issue by issue basis.

The Schoolboard had the right to fire. I am certain it is within the collective agreement they signed onto and the teacher must follow what has been agreed to when hired.

Thus he was fired.

It doesn't mean they are right, it doesn't mean the schoolboard couldn't have used a different disciplinary action and its also not the first time a teacher has stood up for what they believe.

Not that this teacher is likely to return to work at the previous school board, however, I am curious if he grieved the firing and what the outcome of that grievance will be.

Also, I often hear, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to FIRE a teacher especially a LONG TERM Teacher.

To those critics I say...

TAKE NOTE A 35 Year teacher was fired.

Edited September 21, 2012 by madmax

[Wild Bill]

Would those defending this teacher be as vocal if they didn't agree with his POV of assigning zeros ?

If you're defending him as some kind of educational conscientious objector, would you defend him on a different point ?

Well, I would!

What I find pertinent is that obviously, parents have no input into public schools today, at least not in this one with the policy of no zeroes. They pay their taxes and essentially must keep quiet. To get a decision like that made by this principal overturned would require herculean efforts and bags of time, both things that working parents usually don't possess.

No, the only choice they have is to abandon the public system in favour of a private school. The school that hired Mr. Dorval survives directly on the choice of the parents of its students to pay their money. If they don't like a teacher giving zeroes they won't cut a cheque for the tuition.

As a populist, I applaud their hiring of Mr. Dorval! I would be even more in favour of some kind of voucher system, so that parents who disagree with a no zero policy could directly pull their financial support.

[Bonam]

Would those defending this teacher be as vocal if they didn't agree with his POV of assigning zeros ?

If you're defending him as some kind of educational conscientious objector, would you defend him on a different point ?

People defend someone whose actions they agree with. If the teacher was fired over something they didn't agree with, like being racist, incompetent, harassing kids, etc, people wouldn't defend him. Not sure of the point of this question?

And in any case what is there even to defend against? "Socialist's" absurd notion that being fired from a public school should automatically ban one from teaching at any and all other institutions? He is nothing more than a caricature trying to provoke people in case you haven't noticed.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, I would!

So you see the teacher as having a right to teach what he sees as right, and to follow educational processes that he believes in ? That's his right then, and this is why we should defend him ?

Or is the question that the practice of assigning zeros is right, but the teacher should have followed what his employer told him to do.

What I find pertinent is that obviously, parents have no input into public schools today, at least not in this one with the policy of no zeroes. They pay their taxes and essentially must keep quiet. To get a decision like that made by this principal overturned would require herculean efforts and bags of time, both things that working parents usually don't possess.

Sounds like a board decision to me. Does paying taxes give you the right to dictate policy ? I ask you.

No, the only choice they have is to abandon the public system in favour of a private school. The school that hired Mr. Dorval survives directly on the choice of the parents of its students to pay their money. If they don't like a teacher giving zeroes they won't cut a cheque for the tuition.

Do you think private schools would allow teachers to do whatever they wanted ?

As a populist, I applaud their hiring of Mr. Dorval! I would be even more in favour of some kind of voucher system, so that parents who disagree with a no zero policy could directly pull their financial support.

Or people who want to teach about climate change 100% of the time, or people who want to teach that the Holocaust was fake, or people who want to teach anything... uh... that you agree with ?

I am being purposefully obtuse because I don't really get why people are rallying around this guy, when they usually throw teachers to the wolves. Populism it is, definitely. But why ?

[Michael Hardner]

People defend someone whose actions they agree with. If the teacher was fired over something they didn't agree with, like being racist, incompetent, harassing kids, etc, people wouldn't defend him. Not sure of the point of this question?

That is EXACTLY my point.

The people on here aren't defending his "actions" - which are ignoring his employers policies to do things his own way. They're defending the idea that zeros should be given in some cases.

So why defend the guy ? Whether or not zeros are given is a question of educational policy, which is set by school boards in consultation with education experts.

But, hey, let's stick it to the man... whoever that is...

[Wild Bill]

That is EXACTLY my point.

The people on here aren't defending his "actions" - which are ignoring his employers policies to do things his own way. They're defending the idea that zeros should be given in some cases.

So why defend the guy ? Whether or not zeros are given is a question of educational policy, which is set by school boards in consultation with education experts.

But, hey, let's stick it to the man... whoever that is...

I should think it obvious, Michael. First off, I agree that people are defending him because they agree with him.

That being said, they are NOT considering trying to work with the school board!

The reason for that is also obvious. Most parents have long since lost confidence in the viability of that route. They don't believe they have any chance of success, since the board doesn't listen and worse yet, doesn't HAVE to listen!

It is theoretically possible that if enough parents could get organized in a given area and manage to get enough representatives to the board elected they could get some change effected. However, that could take several years.

As I said, at least with a private school you have some clout - your cheque! A private school must be more responsive to parental values or they simply won't have any students.

Public schools don't have to think about that. Why do you think that any time the idea of vouchers has been raised the school system is rabidly against the very idea?

[Michael Hardner]

I should think it obvious, Michael. First off, I agree that people are defending him because they agree with him.

So, they're not defending his actions... they just like the guy's point of view.

If they had principles, they would say "well, yes, I agree with him but he didn't follow process so he should be let go"

It is theoretically possible that if enough parents could get organized in a given area and manage to get enough representatives to the board elected they could get some change effected. However, that could take several years.

But you already said MOST parents feel this way ? Why does it take several years... disconnect here...

Public schools don't have to think about that. Why do you think that any time the idea of vouchers has been raised the school system is rabidly against the very idea?

Certain things shouldn't be governed by the chequebook. Michael Jackson's doctor was very well paid, for example.

[Wild Bill]

So, they're not defending his actions... they just like the guy's point of view.

If they had principles, they would say "well, yes, I agree with him but he didn't follow process so he should be let go"

But you already said MOST parents feel this way ? Why does it take several years... disconnect here...

Certain things shouldn't be governed by the chequebook. Michael Jackson's doctor was very well paid, for example.

The world is the way it is, Michael. You can either deal with it or it will ignore you.

[gunrutz]

Would those defending this teacher be as vocal if they didn't agree with his POV of assigning zeros ?

If you're defending him as some kind of educational conscientious objector, would you defend him on a different point ?

The fact that he is right probably matters to some of us, and I know just like not giving anybody a zero nobody can ever be right or wrong, and nothing can ever be black or white, are any of you enjoying this ride down the societal sewer?

He has principles, he was fired for them, he made the choice, but sometimes people do that sort of thing, you know, stand up for beliefs they consider important, oh look and me getting all absolutist, i know that isn't allowed anymore but it just feels so right. This policy is idiotic, an off shoot of the sociological quagmire progressives are burying us in, a zero is just a number, any seriously deficient individual with a minimum of effort could score higher than a zero on any public school assignment. An earned zero shows a complete lack of respect and effort and therefore is honestly earned, the real world doesn't care to hurt your feelings when you do nothing at all. We talk about educating our children, is teaching them that actions do not have consequences the right way to do it? Well i suppose someone has to fill the tents at occupy events or protest in the streets over tuition hikes.

Edited September 21, 2012 by gunrutz

[Michael Hardner]

The world is the way it is, Michael. You can either deal with it or it will ignore you.

That's not just the way the world is, it's the way you want it to be, from your own statements.

[Wild Bill]

That's not just the way the world is, it's the way you want it to be, from your own statements.

Well, you seem to be the one complaining that Mr. Dorval has a great deal of public support.

As a point of interest, it would appear that the principal who fired him has NONE!

Also, apparently the school board never made a district wide no zero policy. It seems the principal did it on his own.

As I've said many times Michael, I am a populist. I have little to no faith in bureaucracies to be competent. I prefer to investigate each one for myself before I lend them my confidence.

I believe the people have a right to what they want, even if they are wrong!

I would even feel quite comfortable with the idea of principals being elected by the community they serve.

[cadfx]

The truth is that some school boards are overprotective of their teachers even if they are crap, I had some of those that should never be hired in the first place, they were terrible teachers, but they would never ever fire them. They found a easy job with good pay and safe system that took care of them. It's like this in all the schools.

In this case he actually might have been a good teacher that simply did not agree with the particular school policy. And if he was a good teacher hey I would take him over some of the useless so called "teachers" protected by the boards.

This is why private schools are crap. a teacher who broke important rules and snubbed his nose at his bosses gets a job at a private school. it sickens me to see this happen. this guy should never be allowed to teach again after his coldness of giving his learners zeros.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/lynden-dorval-captain-zero/

[Michael Hardner]

Well, you seem to be the one complaining that Mr. Dorval has a great deal of public support.

No, I'm actually asking why people on this thread are supporting him.

As a point of interest, it would appear that the principal who fired him has NONE!

I'm not sure why that's even relevant. I'll bet I can find examples of popular ideas that you're against as well as in favour of. It shouldn't have anything to do with why you'd support someone for not doing their job.

Also, apparently the school board never made a district wide no zero policy. It seems the principal did it on his own.

Good to know, thanks for the clarification.

As I've said many times Michael, I am a populist. I have little to no faith in bureaucracies to be competent. I prefer to investigate each one for myself before I lend them my confidence.

There's also left-populism... the whole "make the rich pay" thing... are you part of that populism too ? It doesn't seem so. You know that unions came about because of populism ? You don't seem to support them.

I believe the people have a right to what they want, even if they are wrong! I would even feel quite comfortable with the idea of principals being elected by the community they serve.

How about electing climate scientists ? That is the same kind of idea - that an educator is only there to implement what the mob tells them to do.

Do you see any limits to populism ? Should we elect doctors ? Michael Jackson did that.

[Wild Bill]

No, I'm actually asking why people on this thread are supporting him.

How about electing climate scientists ? That is the same kind of idea - that an educator is only there to implement what the mob tells them to do.

Do you see any limits to populism ? Should we elect doctors ? Michael Jackson did that.

Michael, people support him because they see the policy of no zeroes as a very, very bad thing. Mr. Dorval looks like a hero, for taking a stand against something that is very negative to the welfare of students.

Or do you think people should always obey orders? How popular was that at Nuremberg?

Electing climate scientists? How is that relevant? I wasn't aware that such scientists are in positions of public authority over children.

As for limits to populism, of course I see such, where appropriate. Electing doctors seems a ridiculous statement. Elect them to what? Members of Parliament? If you meant CHOOSING your own doctor I would agree.

[Signals.Cpl]

Would those defending this teacher be as vocal if they didn't agree with his POV of assigning zeros ?

I support his decision on this point rather than the man. I don't know whether he is a good person or a bad person but on this instance I support his decision. If he were a Holocaust denier and teaching that to his students, or chose to teach creationism exclusively I would most definitely oppose his views.

If you're defending him as some kind of educational conscientious objector, would you defend him on a different point ?

If I agreed with his point strongly enough I would defend him and his choice, if I do not agree with him I will not defend him.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, people support him because they see the policy of no zeroes as a very, very bad thing. Mr. Dorval looks like a hero, for taking a stand against something that is very negative to the welfare of students.

Or do you think people should always obey orders? How popular was that at Nuremberg?

It's unprincipled. If you support somebody who refuses to do their job just because they agree with you, it's not a principled stance. There are matters of conscience and matters that require you do what you're paid to do. This isn't a matter of conscience.

Electing climate scientists? How is that relevant? I wasn't aware that such scientists are in positions of public authority over children.

Because educators create programs based on research, not based on the fact that they're employed by taxpayers.

Electing doctors seems a ridiculous statement.

That's comforting to me that you see it that way.