ROC

[Smallc]

I look at the 1920-21 recession that started initially worse than the great depression. Guess what the USA govt did? Nothing. Does any talking head talk about that recession? No, why? It was over with quickly. That line of thinking won a Nobel prize in economics.

And how did the great depression end? Or would you not count a world war as government intervention? Government intervention that pumps money into the economy that would otherwise not be there at that point cannot possibly make the economy worse at that point.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Smallc

[blueblood]

And how did the great depression end? Or would you not count a world war as government intervention? Government intervention that pumps money into the economy that would otherwise not be there at that point cannot possibly make the economy worse at that point.

Small c, the depression ended because the malinvestments of the 20s and fdr's new deal nonsense were liquidated. If the war was such a good thing and saved the USA economy, why didn't the economy go back to the doldrums of the 1930s when all those able bodied workers returned.

If a war is such a good way to stimulate an economy, then why don't china, the USA, Russia, and Europe build massive, expensive warships to provide jobs, haul them to the pacific, evacuate the crews and fire expensive missiles at them until they're all sunk and the missiles used up.

[Smallc]

If a war is such a good way to stimulate an economy, then why don't china, the USA, Russia, and Europe build massive, expensive warships to provide jobs, haul them to the pacific, evacuate the crews and fire expensive missiles at them until they're all sunk and the missiles used up.

What? Private sector economics drives and grows an economy. In bad times, when the private sector can't, that is when it is appropriate for government to overextend themselves in over to soften the blow. Once economic growth returns, governments should pull back, and let the private economy work.

[blueblood]

What? Private sector economics drives and grows an economy. In bad times, when the private sector can't, that is when it is appropriate for government to overextend themselves in over to soften the blow. Once economic growth returns, governments should pull back, and let the private economy work.

In a correction the govt should stay out and let the malinvestments liquidate themselves and let recapitalization take place. Govt Intervention doesn't let that part of the business cycle take place.

What you propose would be like the price of gas rising in perpetuity never falling, which is of course impossible.

[Smallc]

What you propose would be like the price of gas rising in perpetuity never falling, which is of course impossible.

But economic activity does pretty much rise constantly. Government intervention softens the blow of the times when economic activity does recede. Bad investments still go away, but people are still able to work, feed their families, and survive.

[blueblood]

But economic activity does pretty much rise constantly. Government intervention softens the blow of the times when economic activity does recede. Bad investments still go away, but people are still able to work, feed their families, and survive.

It rises constantly, however it takes a wavy path, which is completely healthy and normal. Oil prices rise and fall repeatedly because if they didn't nobody would make any money.

Govt intervention kicks the can down the road and sets up for a bigger blow when the next correction comes around, that's the problem. Had we kept with the method that worked spectacularly in the 1920-21 recession, we would be better off, unfortunately some academic fools couldn't handle that sometimes you need to drink your buckleys and we have what we have today.

[Smallc]

Govt intervention kicks the can down the road and sets up for a bigger blow when the next correction comes around, that's the problem.

There's no evidence of that, and most independent economists will tell you otherwise, including Governor Carney.

[blueblood]

There's no evidence of that, and most independent economists will tell you otherwise, including Governor Carney.

And most independent economists were wrong about the boom times of the early 2000s lasting forever and that housing was the safest investment a person could make,

[Smallc]

And most independent economists were wrong about the boom times of the early 2000s lasting forever and that housing was the safest investment a person could make,

Lack of government interference is what caused the boom times to come to an end. The markets were under regulated in the US and Europe.

[blueblood]

Lack of government interference is what caused the boom times to come to an end. The markets were under regulated in the US and Europe.

No, they had government place stupid regulations, I.e. Artificially lower interest rates, intimidate banks to loan to low risk people, spend like drunken sailors.

Had the govt not interfered in the first place, this nonsense wouldn't have happened and both dems and reps equally share the blame.

[Smallc]

No, they had government place stupid regulations, I.e. Artificially lower interest rates, intimidate banks to loan to low risk people, spend like drunken sailors.

Those were not the major causes. Credit default swaps with AAA ratings they never should have had didn't play any part, after all.

[blueblood]

Those were not the major causes. Credit default swaps with AAA ratings they never should have had didn't play any part, after all.

They were major contributing factors. The main cause was a sense of entitlement.

[punked]

They were major contributing factors. The main cause was a sense of entitlement.

No it wasn't. Economics isn't a morality play we need to stop treating like it is because all that has ever done is harm us.

[blueblood]

No it wasn't. Economics isn't a morality play we need to stop treating like it is because all that has ever done is harm us.

Yes it is, I'm a person living in north America, Im special I deserve a house even though I can't afford it, I deserve this that and the other thing even though I can't afford it. That's not a problem???

[punked]

Yes it is, I'm a person living in north America, Im special I deserve a house even though I can't afford it, I deserve this that and the other thing even though I can't afford it. That's not a problem???

THIS IS NOT A MORALITY PLAY. Good economics isn't based on what is moral or what is not. That is a dumb way to approach a very real problem and if half the reason we are not out of the woods yet.

[Black Dog]

Yes it is, I'm a person living in north America, Im special I deserve a house even though I can't afford it, I deserve this that and the other thing even though I can't afford it. That's not a problem???

That's the American Dream you're badmouthing there, mister.

[blueblood]

That's the American Dream you're badmouthing there, mister.

Their problem is too many people were dreaming...

[blueblood]

THIS IS NOT A MORALITY PLAY. Good economics isn't based on what is moral or what is not. That is a dumb way to approach a very real problem and if half the reason we are not out of the woods yet.

It provided a foundation for the recession. Had people not went stupidly in debt, this problem wouldn't have existed in the first place. Imagine house prices at a level people could afford because they are smart with their money and not wanting to swim in debt.

What's your solution, reward stupidity and this bad behavior with easy credit so they can continue their consumption binge?

[westguy]

Yah the West was Hard hit during the depression so I would find it hard to believe they became self sufficient during the depression. The boom for the West started in the 40s and 50s but the 30s were not a good time.

That really isn't the point though. The country started in the East that was where the money was for 200 years. The Federal government used a lot of those rich Easterners money to build the infrastructure out West. They built the railway and most the grain elevators that made so people could actually make a living and develop the West. I know people like Westguy wake up in the morning and think "Screw Quebec, the West made it all by itself and Quebec should to," that is not the real story. This country was built by all of us and no one stealing Alberta's money.

Are you suggesting the east built the railway out of the goodness of their hearts? They built it cuz they believed it would profit them.

[bleeding heart]

So the average Maritime worker is forced into a succession of part-time and short term jobs. If he plays the game he can get by but there's one caveat - he has to keep voting for parties that will continue the grant money! That sticks in the craw of many down East but they don't have a lot of choice. It's hard to act on pride when you have to feed your kids.

It's true that this sort of thing is a very real issue in democratic politics generally....

But here in the Maritimes, we repeatedly vote for the same parties as people do in most of Canada.

The Conservatives and Liberals, mostly. And a few "traditional voting" ridings aside (a silliness that every province endures), we tend to switch back and forth regularly between these two giants. (With the very rare exception of an NDP government.)

So I agree with your premise to a degree, but I'm not sure how our voting patterns are distinct from the rest of the country.

It's easy to say just move out west but that's a hard thing for a Maritimer. Many do and have done so, of course. Still, they could be in Alberta for 30 years and yet will still refer to Nova Scotia or New Brunswick as "Down Home". Alberta is where they found they HAD to live, not where they WANTED to live! To them, it was like emigrating to another country.

If you know any "downhomers" in Alberta you know I am right! If you stop and think about it, someone born and raised in sight of the Rockies would have a hard time leaving to work in the Maritimes, if the shoe was on the other foot.

It's easy for a westerner to say "Just move out here!" Doesn't bother you none! Alberta is YOUR home! To you it's the best place to be!

Would it be so strange to find that people in other parts of Canada feel the same way about where they live?

Very well said, WB. And yes, often sheer practicality dictates a move, most obviously to a fine and beautiful place called "Alberta." But people, for good or ill, often tend to feel visceral connections to the regions in which they've spent their lives.

[bleeding heart]

As I said, if you represent mainstream Alberta opinion, we'll manage without you.

Westguy doesn't represent mainstream Alberta opinion. He's part of the fringe, American-wannabe minority.

Alberta will never separate from Canada.

[bleeding heart]

If you are referring to the rest of the world when you say "THEY" and "CANADA" you would be right.

Atlantic Canada has traditionally supported the Liberal party,

If you bothered to do a simple wiki search of New Brunswick Premiers, you would already know that your thesis is incorrect.

This province votes Conservative regularly, and always has.

[bleeding heart]

No, they had government place stupid regulations, I.e. Artificially lower interest rates, intimidate banks to loan to low risk people,

I don't think you meant "low risk people," but at any rate this is crazy talk. "Intimidate the banks"!

Please, the banks' little wee-wees have never been as hard as they've been in such a foolish (albeit temporarily profitable) era of practices.

[westguy]

Westguy doesn't represent mainstream Alberta opinion. He's part of the fringe, American-wannabe minority.

Alberta will never separate from Canada.

I would appreciate not being told what I think. I take exception to ROC having to subsidize Quebec and put up with their bitchin

[TheNewTeddy]

I would appreciate not being told what I think. I take exception to ROC having to subsidize Quebec and put up with their bitchin

Talk to your MPs

Almost all of them are sitting in the government.

If you don't want the ROC to subsidize Quebec, let them know.

Governments don't make decisions on where to send money without making decisions about where to send money.