ROC

[TheNewTeddy]

Not sure if serious.

Which part do you have a problem with?

[guyser]

Which part do you have a problem with?

Taxes , transit....

[TheNewTeddy]

Taxes , transit....

The TTC earns 71% of it's revenue from the farebox (currently among the lowest fares in the GTA) and GO Transit, over 82%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

(check the citations if you don't trust wikipedia)

Compae this to San Francisco at 65%, Montreal at 57%, New York City and Chicago at 55%, Vancouver at 52%, Edmonton at 39%, Atlanta at 32%, Dallas at 28%, and Detroit at 14%

In fact the only places on this list higher than the TTC is...

Taipei (Trains only) 119%

Singapore 125% (mostly Trains)

Osaka 137% (mostly Trains)

Hong Kong (Trains only) 149%

and Tokyo (Trains only) 170%

Trains are much more efficient to operate than buses. I dare you to find a public transit bus system in North America, or Europe, that has a better farebox ratio than the TTC and GO transit. Keep in mind, the TTC and GO Transit both have low fares, and even if you raise the fares in other cities, they do not match the TTC's efficiency.

And on Taxes:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/407487--taxes-hit-you-where-you-live quote "Toronto ... (is) charging ... the GTA's highest industrial-commercial taxes"

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/1517 quote "The detailed property tax report issued by the City of Edmonton reveals that some Ontario cities rank the highest in Canada when it comes to property taxes. The cities of Toronto, Ottawa, Brampton, Hamilton and London take five of the top six spots on the list for the highest average property taxes paid. This is something most homeowners in these cities know intuitively every time they pay their tax bill. Now they have it confirmed by an objective report which compared over 30 municipalities across Canada.

Toronto ranked first with the highest taxes paid at $3,912, followed by Brampton at $3,826. Ottawa was third at $3,532; Hamilton and London were fifth and sixth at $3,305 and $3,078 respectively. St. John’s Newfoundland deserves credit for taking last place with the lowest average tax at $1,540, and Surrey, BC was second last at $1,814"

[Wild Bill]

No. I'm calling for ignorant partisan hacks to stop deriding academics and research, instead of educating "the masses."

Sounds to me like code for "What's wrong with the masses? They don't agree with us! WE know what's good for them! They must either be ignorant or someone is messing with their minds. We'll just step in and run things, for their own good!"

This is why socialism so often turns to stalinism or some other form of totalitarianism. Socialists just can't accept that many folks just don't like what the socialists are offering! It's not just socialism itself. Most average folks don't understand it anyway, It's just that socialism invariably comes with nitpicking, anal retentive bureaucracies that start to control every aspect of a citizen's life, "for his own good", of course!

The two factors seem to be genetically linked in those who expouse one or the other.

[punked]

Sounds to me like code for "What's wrong with the masses? They don't agree with us! WE know what's good for them! They must either be ignorant or someone is messing with their minds. We'll just step in and run things, for their own good!"

This is why socialism so often turns to stalinism or some other form of totalitarianism. Socialists just can't accept that many folks just don't like what the socialists are offering! It's not just socialism itself. Most average folks don't understand it anyway, It's just that socialism invariably comes with nitpicking, anal retentive bureaucracies that start to control every aspect of a citizen's life, "for his own good", of course!

The two factors seem to be genetically linked in those who expouse one or the other.

Come on you are better then that. I don't go around claiming capitalism often turns into Fascism because populism is bad for capitalists. You are not making good points here historically or politically. You are making charged statements that are just wrong.

I am sorry sometimes populism is wrong and I am a populist. If we as a voting majority decided to kill the Jewish people that is wrong. There is no defense of that. Yelling about communism still wont make it right. Sorry.

I think most of the time the more people you have making decisions the better those decisions are going to be. Which is why I am a populist. There are however some rights (and those are debatable) that should never be left up the collective. No matter how "scary socialist" that.

Edited August 31, 2012 by punked

[wyly]

The TTC earns 71% of it's revenue from the farebox (currently among the lowest fares in the GTA) and GO Transit, over 82%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

(check the citations if you don't trust wikipedia)

Compae this to San Francisco at 65%, Montreal at 57%, New York City and Chicago at 55%, Vancouver at 52%, Edmonton at 39%, Atlanta at 32%, Dallas at 28%, and Detroit at 14%

In fact the only places on this list higher than the TTC is...

Taipei (Trains only) 119%

Singapore 125% (mostly Trains)

Osaka 137% (mostly Trains)

Hong Kong (Trains only) 149%

and Tokyo (Trains only) 170%

Trains are much more efficient to operate than buses. I dare you to find a public transit bus system in North America, or Europe, that has a better farebox ratio than the TTC and GO transit. Keep in mind, the TTC and GO Transit both have low fares, and even if you raise the fares in other cities, they do not match the TTC's efficiency.

And on Taxes:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/407487--taxes-hit-you-where-you-live quote "Toronto ... (is) charging ... the GTA's highest industrial-commercial taxes"

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/1517 quote "The detailed property tax report issued by the City of Edmonton reveals that some Ontario cities rank the highest in Canada when it comes to property taxes. The cities of Toronto, Ottawa, Brampton, Hamilton and London take five of the top six spots on the list for the highest average property taxes paid. This is something most homeowners in these cities know intuitively every time they pay their tax bill. Now they have it confirmed by an objective report which compared over 30 municipalities across Canada.

Toronto ranked first with the highest taxes paid at $3,912, followed by Brampton at $3,826. Ottawa was third at $3,532; Hamilton and London were fifth and sixth at $3,305 and $3,078 respectively. St. John’s Newfoundland deserves credit for taking last place with the lowest average tax at $1,540, and Surrey, BC was second last at $1,814"

okay I'm not challenging your facts but stats can be interpreted differently, and profit is not always the end goal...

I've never used toronto trains are they as extensive as found in Paris, London or Amsterdam?.. having fewer lines is less expensive then have vast multi-layered networks of subways, surface rail and buses... cost can be a lower priority to moving masses of people efficiently, quickly, on time and as well as getting cars off the roads... reducing the need for more extensive roadways in cities that just have no more room and limited money for roads is a must...in cities like paris or amsterdam there just isn't anywhere to put new roads, subways are hugely expensive but it's the only option left...

unrelated tangent, why can't my local c-train in calagry run on time like in europe...times here are approximate which isn't a problem for me a few minutes either way, but with a tiny commuter rail system how hard is it to be on time? I recall many times in amsterdam looking at the train schedule and it'll give the arrival time as 8:47(odd, why not 8:45) and I'd stand there looking down the track at 8:45 and nothing, 8:46:00 nothing, 8:46:30 nothing, then at 8:46:45 a train comes into view! damn almost down to the second, impressive...and I hear Japan is even better, apparently late times totaling late only seconds per year per line.

[Wilber]

Again the railway is not the only infrastructure that was needed to settle western Canada. The system of Grain Elevators that made it possible for Western Farmers to get their product to marked didn't build themselves. No interest loans to provincial governments who used them to develop hydro wasn't money that came out of thin air. We have always been a country that helps each other develop because a Strong Canada not only means a Strong NS it means a Strong Alberta.

I don't disagree with many of your points, just that the railway only benefited the West.

It also provided a captive market for Eastern industrial products. Names such as Massey were built on the sale of farm machinery in good part to Western farmers. The railway made a lot of Eastern business's very rich.

[westguy]

I think many in this thread seem to misunderstand the feelings of Westerners towards the East and particularly towards Quebec.

You are not going to change their feelings with nitpicking math about the West receiving transfer payments back in the 30's. That's the sort of thing that makes the average guy's eyes glaze over. The problem is much more visceral.

Westerners, particularly Albertans, are of a very hardworking culture. They have had some very hard economic knocks within recent memory. The NEP was not that long ago. People lost their jobs and their homes in droves. At one point over a third of Calgary's commercial real estate was empty. Make no mistake, their setback was deep and it HURT!

Despite that, they rolled up their sleeves, pulled together and rebuilt their economy. It wasn't Ottawa who made the oil boom out west. Ottawa just followed along and taxed the hell out of it as fast as it could.

When these western folks look to Quebec, they see a province who seems to have a sense of entitlement. To them, Quebec built her economy by blackmailing Ottawa with talk of separation. Quebec appears to be much more in debt than the west yet has incredibly cheap day care and the lowest tuition rates for university students, by far! Quebec may not have oil but it has vast amounts of hydro electricity that most homes are heated with it. As an Ontarioan, the first time I saw that I was shocked to the core!

So Westerners lack respect for the East and Quebec not for audits and accounting but for an impression of their work ethic, or lack of one. In a word, westerners think Quebecers are lazy! They live a better life than other Canadians yet tend to be whiny about not getting enough from Ottawa.

This is a perception and may not be very accurate but once again, in politics perception is everything.

your logice is very well stated. For several years ALBERTA has been the engine that drives the country.

[westguy]

What is wrong with that picture is in Quebec there is an SALES TAX and in Alberta there isn't. You want programs PAY FOR THEM like the rest of the country. If you don't that is fine to but you are presenting a false choice.

I dont necessarily agree with the policies of the provincial PC's. maybe we could pay for them if we weren't givng billions to Quebec.

[westguy]

What is wrong with that picture is in Quebec there is an SALES TAX and in Alberta there isn't. You want programs PAY FOR THEM like the rest of the country. If you don't that is fine to but you are presenting a false choice.

I dont necessarily agree with the policies of the provincial PC's. maybe we could pay for them if we weren't givng billions to Quebec.

[gunrutz]

I dont necessarily agree with the policies of the provincial PC's. maybe we could pay for them if we weren't givng billions to Quebec.

O now, look at what you did, now someone is going to come along and tell you that even though your province puts more into the feds than it gets back that it really isnt your money anymore after the feds get it and therefore it really isn't coming from you and going to someone else. Tsk Tsk.

[bleeding heart]

O now, look at what you did, now someone is going to come along and tell you that even though your province puts more into the feds than it gets back that it really isnt your money anymore after the feds get it and therefore it really isn't coming from you and going to someone else. Tsk Tsk.

Tsk Tsk, indeed.

The provinces don't give a red cent to one another.

Try again.

[madmax]

Alberta students pay 6-12k for tuition, Quebec students pay 2500 and they bitch and protest. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???

12k in tuiton... thats whats wrong...

[TheNewTeddy]

unrelated tangent, why can't my local c-train in calagry run on time like in europe...times here are approximate which isn't a problem for me a few minutes either way, but with a tiny commuter rail system how hard is it to be on time? I recall many times in amsterdam looking at the train schedule and it'll give the arrival time as 8:47(odd, why not 8:45) and I'd stand there looking down the track at 8:45 and nothing, 8:46:00 nothing, 8:46:30 nothing, then at 8:46:45 a train comes into view! damn almost down to the second, impressive...and I hear Japan is even better, apparently late times totaling late only seconds per year per line.

I actually know a lot about transit and can explain.

The further apart the stations are, the easier it is to be on time. As well, if the trains do not operate at full speed normally, it is also easier.

Now while the actual top speeds do not match my examples, I will show why GO Trains are on time more often than the TTC Subway.

The TTC subway, between stations, accelerates to, for example, 100kph. The train, especially down-town, never has time to actually reach the speed. Therefore, the more full the train is, the longer it takes to accelerate. This means that when service is needed most, the subway is the slowest. The TTC knows this and therefore puts their trains 90 seconds apart. 90 seconds is a magic number in public transit, you really can't schedule anything to be shorter than that. Buses have to stop at red lights, trains need to come to a stop in a station, load and offload, and accelerate out of a station. 90 seconds is as close as you can run things in an organized manner. The TTC subway is as full as it can get with trains, which is why the TTC has ordered trains that have more space in them, so they can cram in more people.

Compare this to GO, where trains operate 10 or 15 mins in rush. As a Commuter Rail system there can be 5 minutes between stations, as opposed to less than 60 seconds in parts of the TTC Network. The trains accelerate towards, for example, 100kph, but only ever get to 90kph. GO purposely has the trains max out at this speed normally, so that if a train is late, it can actually go 100kph. With minutes between stations this 10 Kph difference adds up, and with over an hour end to end, going 10kph faster can shave 6 minutes off the trip. Might not sound like much but when you are only 6 minutes late you are now suddenly on time. GO's main problems occur in and around Union Station. Unlike Montreal, where there are two main downtown stations, Toronto only has one, and it's full. Trains crawl in and out of the station desperately trying to find tracks that don't have trains already on them.

Trains elsewhere in the world use a combo of the 90kph trick and the 90 seconds trick to be "on time". I don't know much about calgary and the c-train but my educated guess is that they do not operate at their fullest speeds, and, they dawdle at stations even outside of rush hour. This would ensure the trains are run on time. In places like Japan, loading and offloading is a nearly mechanical procedure as people understand how holding the door open even for 5 seconds can throw off the schedule if everyone does it at every station.

[westguy]

Tsk Tsk, indeed.

The provinces don't give a red cent to one another.

Try again.

what planet r u circling?

[westguy]

12k in tuiton... thats whats wrong...

thats common in Canada excpet for "la belle Provence" where it is 2500$

[bleeding heart]

what planet r u circling?

Hoo, boy.

I'm not going to educate you on how our system works, because plainly you don't want to know.

[westguy]

What really gets me POed is some of the type of discussion like the above.

Quebec takes all our (the west) money

The Atlantic are lazy and takes all our money too

The east is evil

Oh, did I mention the east includes Ontario?

Toronto gets EVERYTHING!!

Really.

I suppose that's why our city has the highest taxes, the most efficient transit system, fire department, and police department, and the highest debt. Something is wrong there and it's not "Gravy". Ontario has downloaded welfare to the cities and then put all the services in Toronto. Guess where the people live? So Toronto, alone among cities in Canada, has to pay huge dollars to welfare, while all the money in Ontario goes to Ottawa, Rural areas, and the 905.

Now that Ontario is getting welfare itself, it has cut back, specifically, on services that are focused on Toronto, like Education (Toronto has a young population) and the like.

The feds, meanwhile, have no interest in helping solve these "Provincial" problems. So while Vancouver gets a new subway line to the Airport, and Montreal gets a new commuter line to it's eastern end, what does Toronto get? An commuter train extension to the next town over? A subway line to the middle of an empty field near a wal-mart? Meanwhile, the Montreal and Vancouver areas get new highways, while Toronto gets...??? I think the 427 was extended to the next street over.

But lo, "Toronto gets everything". Clearly that is the case. That is why more and more business HQs want to relocate to the much much smaller Calgary (1M urban area VS 6M), why Vancouver is the "best" place to live (Toronto often gets lower than other large Canadian cities), why Montreal is 'cool' and 'hip' (Toronto rarely produces anything unique). And so the city that gets everything ends up with cuts and cuts and cuts so that the Ontario government can placate the 905, and Ontario gets cuts and cuts and cuts so the Federal government can placate the west.

Angry because Quebec is stealing your money? Fine.

Angry cause the Atlantic is full of seasonal workers that want wintertime EI? Fine.

But don't take out your anger on Toronto.

And it gets better too.

Quebec likes to get in on the action. Quebec attacks Toronto at every turn, it is the example of how terrible Montreal will become if they let it. When a business leaves Quebec because Quebec is nuts, they go to Toronto, and for that, Quebeckers do not hate the business, or themselves for creating a crappy business climate, they hate Toronto, cause, the came here or something. While those in Quebec look for things "Made in Quebec" and those in the west want "Made in Western Canada", Toronto settles for "Made in Canada, maybe". Our desperate position causes our voters, in shear frustration of not understanding why nothing ever seems to make our city any better, to switch from left-wing socialist idiots to right-wing libertarian buffons as mayor. People here are pissed and don't know why.

I know why.

Quebec wants 45% of all the power in Canada.

The West wants 45% of all the power in Canada.

The Atlantic is satisfied to sit at 10%.

And for fear of losing voters in these areas, the federal government is willing to give them whatever they want.

I say: FINE. Alberta? Quebec? This is Ontario calling. We don't be mediating your disputes anymore. We are leaving with all our money, all our business connections, all our trade, and all our taxpayers. Tah tah.

we would just prefer to have our own money to spend on Albertans instead of Quebecers who threaten independence to get more

[westguy]

Alberta has an income tax.

Youm must be very uninformed - Alberta has income tax

[punked]

Youm must be very uninformed - Alberta has income tax

Post was corrected. I ment sales tax. Which every other province pays. It is fine to complain about services you don't have but when you refuse to pay for them you look like a jerk to do so.

[punked]

we would just prefer to have our own money to spend on Albertans instead of Quebecers who threaten independence to get more

Again that is fine you do however have to pay for the Labour that you take from the other provinces. Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, and PEI all paid for the Education and Health of those 18-50 year olds you took from them. They are training your future Albertans right now so Alberta can grow and you wont have to immigrate people that don't fit into your culture. It is an investment to make the country stronger. Rich provinces always need trained people to grow and that was the case to when Ontario was the ones paying for the rest of us.

In 2002 when Ontario Farmers sent their Wheat west because of a poor year so they could feed their cows they did it because we are a country. DEAL WITH IT!

I know you think there is a wall around Alberta but there isn't. However 206,000 people moved from Ontario to Alberta over the past decade. THAT IS JUST ONTARIO. Think about will you. It helps Alberta that NS has money to educate its population. It is a small small price to pay to get highly skill labor that easily integrates into your culture. You just want it both ways. You want Labor for free and you want other provinces to pay for it.

You sound just like Quebec "give me mine screw what is fair, and everyone else" you are the thing you pretend to hate and I find that funny.

Edited September 1, 2012 by punked

[madmax]

thats common in Canada excpet for "la belle Provence" where it is 2500$

$12,000 is NOT common....

https://osap.gov.on.ca/OSAPPortal/en/PostsecondaryEducation/OSAP/FinancialPlanning/TuitionandLivingCosts/index.htm

According to OSAP!!!

Tuition Fees

You will pay tuition fees to go to a postsecondary school in Ontario. These fees will be listed in the school’s course calendar or program guide. You do not usually need to pay the whole fee at one time.

In most cases, you will find that:

Fees for some specialized college or university programs will be higher than fees for general programs.

Colleges and universities have different tuition fees for international students.

Fees for college programs are generally lower than fees for university programs. On average, fees for two terms of college in a general program are about $1,900. Fees for a general university program are about $4,200.

[cybercoma]

we would just prefer to have our own money to spend on Albertans instead of Quebecers who threaten independence to get more

You do have your own money. Alberta's provincial income tax stays in Alberta. None of it goes to Québec.

As long as Alberta remains a part of the Canadian confederacy, Albertans will be required to pay into the federal state, which will then decide to spend the money in whatever way is in the best interests of the entire confederation.

Edited September 1, 2012 by cybercoma

[westguy]

$12,000 is NOT common....

https://osap.gov.on.ca/OSAPPortal/en/PostsecondaryEducation/OSAP/FinancialPlanning/TuitionandLivingCosts/index.htm

According to OSAP!!!

for certain faculties it is and I never said it was.

Tuition Fees

You will pay tuition fees to go to a postsecondary school in Ontario. These fees will be listed in the school’s course calendar or program guide. You do not usually need to pay the whole fee at one time.

In most cases, you will find that:

Fees for some specialized college or university programs will be higher than fees for general programs.

Colleges and universities have different tuition fees for international students.

Fees for college programs are generally lower than fees for university programs. On average, fees for two terms of college in a general program are about $1,900. Fees for a general university program are about $4,200.

[westguy]

for certain faculties it is: Grad studies, law, medicine, dentistry. I said tuition is 6-12,000. My daughter went to law school - dont tell me how much she paid as I know.