ROC

Smallc · August 29, 2012

where do you think the federal treasury gets its money?

What's your point?

punked · August 29, 2012

where do you think the federal treasury gets its money?

It doesn't matter because you can NEVER GET RID OF IT. It is a part of the constitution buddy so you can cry for the rest of your life IT IS NEVER GOING TO CHANGE.

cybercoma · August 29, 2012

where do you think the federal treasury gets its money?

It certainly doesn't get it from provinces. It gets it from Canadian taxpayers, a large number of which live in Québec.

cybercoma · August 29, 2012

It doesn't matter because you can NEVER GET RID OF IT. It is a part of the constitution buddy so you can cry for the rest of your life IT IS NEVER GOING TO CHANGE.

Hey guys! Let's have a federation where there's absolutely no incentive for the provinces to be a part of it.

madmax · August 29, 2012

where do you think the federal treasury gets its money?

Considering what I gave was a QUOTE....on how it works, the question was answered...

It comes from the general population, NOT, the Provinces.

However the Provinces get the luxury of administering those monies as seen fit.

That is only true for equalization , not for Health Transfers or Social transfers, which have strings attached by the Federal Government.

As for Quebecs Social Programs....

Well essentially it suggests that there is nothing stopping other Provinces from implementing similar programs.

A province could be MIRED IN DEBT and be a HAVE PROVINCE

I think there is some confusion as what a Provinces debt is, has NO bearing on the monies that individuals pay to the federal government.

Same goes for Social Programs implemented by a Province.

That said a Province could be debt free, and still receive transfer payments.

cybercoma · August 30, 2012

A province, at least theoretically, could be running surpluses and receive equalization payments.

Smallc · August 30, 2012

A province, at least theoretically, could be running surpluses and receive equalization payments.

It's not theoretical. They do it all of the time (or they did, until 2008).

Edited August 30, 2012 by Smallc

CPCFTW · August 30, 2012

Hey guys! Let's have a federation where there's absolutely no incentive for the provinces to be a part of it.

Hey Cybercoma! Let's be friends! You can give me $500/yr as an incentive to remain friends! We both win!

Smallc · August 30, 2012

Hey Cybercoma! Let's be friends!

A federation is more like a family.

punked · August 30, 2012

Hey Cybercoma! Let's be friends! You can give me $500/yr as an incentive to remain friends! We both win!

Oh will that 500 dollars a year mean you get to ship your billions of dollars worth of oil threw my province? Sounds like a good deal to me.

Oh does that 500 dollars a year mean you don't have to pay for the Billions of dollars NS spent building you a railroad to ship your goods so people would settle your province? How about all the money Ontario gave you to develop your elect grid or the highway their money build when you had none? Sounds like a good deal to me.

Edited August 30, 2012 by punked

cybercoma · August 30, 2012

Hey Cybercoma! Let's be friends! You can give me $500/yr as an incentive to remain friends! We both win!

I don't know how many times it has to be said and how many times the links to the government's equalization website have to be posted, but you're either completely incapable or completely unwilling of understanding equalization. If we're provinces in your metaphor, then it's a weak one. The provinces do not give money to other provinces.

PIK · August 30, 2012

I don't know how many times it has to be said and how many times the links to the government's equalization website have to be posted, but you're either completely incapable or completely unwilling of understanding equalization. If we're provinces in your metaphor, then it's a weak one. The provinces do not give money to other provinces.

You are just word playing. Rich provinces give to the fed and the fed hands it out. SAME THING.

Edited August 30, 2012 by PIK

punked · August 30, 2012

You are just word playing. Rich provinces give to the fed and the fed hands it out. SAME THING.

And that is how it has been in one or another for all of Canadian History. Who built the Confederation bridge? The Pacific railway? Who built the infrastructure of this nation so that less developed provinces could develop and prosper today? You think the Easts Fish just disappeared on their own? Nope the East took the fish from the Ocean to sell them and in doing they gave money to the Feds to build the west. Ontario and their manufacturing as well. Now that the west is developed on the Resources from the other provinces they don't want to do their part? That is crazy talk.

Smallc · August 30, 2012

You are just word playing. Rich provinces give to the fed and the fed hands it out. SAME THING.

No, you're not understanding. People pay taxes. Taxes go into general revenue. Some of general revenue goes to the Equalization program. Now, it is true that some provinces are net contributors (Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan , Newfoundland and Labrador, probably BC, maybe Manitoba) and others are net recipients (the rest), but that doesn't mean that provinces are sending money to each other. People pay taxes, and some of that tax money goes to improve the fiscal capacity of provinces with less fiscal capacity. That's all.

westguy · August 30, 2012

What's your point?

directly or indirectly, the other provinces are subsidizing Quebec to the tune of $5b/yr. It a;ll comes out of the same taxpayers' pocket. If Quebec left, they would go bankrupt

cybercoma · August 30, 2012

You are just word playing. Rich provinces give to the fed and the fed hands it out. SAME THING.

Provinces do not give the federal government money. They raise their own taxes for their own use.

cybercoma · August 30, 2012

directly or indirectly, the other provinces are subsidizing Quebec to the tune of $5b/yr. It a;ll comes out of the same taxpayers' pocket. If Quebec left, they would go bankrupt

Taxpayers live in Québec. In fact, just about 24% of them live there.

jacee · August 30, 2012

And that is how it has been in one or another for all of Canadian History. Who built the Confederation bridge? The Pacific railway? Who built the infrastructure of this nation so that less developed provinces could develop and prosper today? You think the Easts Fish just disappeared on their own? Nope the East took the fish from the Ocean to sell them and in doing they gave money to the Feds to build the west. Ontario and their manufacturing as well. Now that the west is developed on the Resources from the other provinces they don't want to do their part? That is crazy talk.

!!! Best answer !!!

Just curious ... does anyone know when Alberta stopped being a 'have not' province?

TheNewTeddy · August 30, 2012

This might help.

I did some calculations on the 2011 budget. They could be off by a bit as the Feds cover up the real figures (for fear of anger) but here is what I was able to work out.

In 2011, Ontario sent $98.8 billion dollars to the Federal Government. Note that this IS THE TAXPAYERS OF ONTARIO, NOT THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO. Provincial governments do not send a penny to the Federal Government.

So, Ontario sent $98.8 (billion)

The federal government meanwhile spent $96.8 in Ontario, meaning that Ontario sent $2 more than it got back. Remember too our huge federal deficit means that the total "balance" for all provinces is a deficit too.

Quebec meanwhile went $47.8 and got back $68.3

Remember that these calculations are based on partial and old data, as the federal government obviously, would not want you to be aware of such a gap.

BC sent $27.3 and got back #31.0

Alberta sent $32.8 and got back $23.6

Saskatchewan sent $7.5 and got back $9.3

Manitoba sent $7.6 and got back $13.2

New Brunswick sent $3.9 and got back #9.0

Nova Scotia sent $5.2 and got back #12.2

PEI sent $0.8 and got back $2.0

Newfoundland sent $2.8 and got back $5.6

Now remember, Newfoundland is a "have" province that receives no equalization. Despite that, incomes in NL are so low compared to the national average, and, corporate revenues so low, and, EI claims and other social welfare claims so high, that Newfoundland, despite not getting a penny in equalization, gets MORE than they pay in, while Ontario, which does get equalization, pays in more than it gets back.

TheNewTeddy · August 30, 2012

!!! Best answer !!!

Just curious ... does anyone know when Alberta stopped being a 'have not' province?

Alberta dipped into Equalization during the low oil price times (80s?) but only for a few years, and BC dipped in during the last NDP government there.

Alberta however did receive more than it paid in up to about the 30's I think

jacee · August 30, 2012

Alberta dipped into Equalization during the low oil price times (80s?) but only for a few years, and BC dipped in during the last NDP government there.

Alberta however did receive more than it paid in up to about the 30's I think

Thanks. I think that makes my point that there has always been federal support for Canadians regardless of where they lived and Alberta has benefitted too when needed.

The current arrogance from Alberta - like they made the oil themselves - and ethnic prejudice against Quebecois is so unattractive and unwarranted.

And this thread is just another excuse to flaunt those prejudices, and it's become tedious - ie boring and offensive.

I would think the current discussion of how landlocked Alberta is going to get its oil to markets might give some Albertans pause for thought about the benefits of Confederation. I believe Montreal is in play for that. I'm sure there are some smarter heads in Alberta who get the whole picture. Too bad they're not posting here.

Edited August 30, 2012 by jacee

Tilter · August 30, 2012

Thanks. I think that makes my point that there has always been federal support for Canadians regardless of where they lived and Alberta has benefitted too when needed.

The current arrogance from Alberta - like they made the oil themselves - and ethnic prejudice against Quebecois is so unattractive and unwarranted.

And this thread is just another excuse to flaunt those prejudices, and it's become tedious - ie boring and offensive.

I would think the current discussion of how landlocked Alberta is going to get its oil to markets might give some Albertans pause for thought about the benefits of Confederation. I believe Montreal is in play for that. I'm sure there are some smarter heads in Alberta who get the whole picture. Too bad they're not posting here.

Maybe they could buy Manitoba

Edited August 30, 2012 by Tilter

punked · August 31, 2012

Alberta dipped into Equalization during the low oil price times (80s?) but only for a few years, and BC dipped in during the last NDP government there.

Alberta however did receive more than it paid in up to about the 30's I think

Yah the West was Hard hit during the depression so I would find it hard to believe they became self sufficient during the depression. The boom for the West started in the 40s and 50s but the 30s were not a good time.

That really isn't the point though. The country started in the East that was where the money was for 200 years. The Federal government used a lot of those rich Easterners money to build the infrastructure out West. They built the railway and most the grain elevators that made so people could actually make a living and develop the West. I know people like Westguy wake up in the morning and think "Screw Quebec, the West made it all by itself and Quebec should to," that is not the real story. This country was built by all of us and no one stealing Alberta's money.

Edited August 31, 2012 by punked

westguy · August 31, 2012

Yah the West was Hard hit during the depression so I would find it hard to believe they became self sufficient during the depression. The boom for the West started in the 40s and 50s but the 30s were not a good time.

That really isn't the point though. The country started in the East that was where the money was for 200 years. The Federal government used a lot of those rich Easterners money to build the infrastructure out West. They built the railway and most the grain elevators that made so people could actually make a living and develop the West. I know people like Westguy wake up in the morning and think "Screw Quebec, the West made it all by itself and Quebec should to," that is not the real story. This country was built by all of us and no one stealing Alberta's money.

Alberta only received control of its resources in 1930. Please look at it in prespective. Quebec has received $5b/yr EVERY YEAR in transfer payments since 1957. Despite that Quebec is $250b in debt and threatens to leave Canada. Alberta students pay 6-12k for tuition, Quebec students pay 2500 and they bitch and protest. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???

Peter F · August 31, 2012

Alberta only received control of its resources in 1930. Please look at it in prespective. Quebec has received $5b/yr EVERY YEAR in transfer payments since 1957. Despite that Quebec is $250b in debt and threatens to leave Canada. Alberta students pay 6-12k for tuition, Quebec students pay 2500 and they bitch and protest. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???

Your students are paying way too much for tuition?