ROC

[westguy]

It seems that Quebec has a preferential place in Canadian politics to the detriment of all other provinces. They have many rights that "ordinary" provinces do not have. such as their own immigration, their own CPP, and their own language law ( Bill 101) etc. They have received net $250b in equalizatiion or transfer payments which come from the contributions made thru taxpayers in other provinces. They use that money to subsidize their social programs to an extent that contributing provinces cannot afford to be as generous as Quebec. Despite all this they are $257b in debt. Obviousy they have learnned the lesson of "how to profit from federalism". Too bad they have not learnned the leson of "how not to spend like drunken sailors". Despite ROC's largesse, they are constantly raising the spectre of indepedence. I suggest that the ROC (rest of Canada) should have its own referendum and the other 9 provinces vote on whether Quebec should be allowed to stay in Canada. Realistically, we are in the era of globalization and Quebec would become an isolated island in an English. Firthermore, without the $$$ of the ROC, Quebec would soon become a third world country.

[Smallc]

Oh please. Everything that Quebec does is constitutionally allowed in any other province. Equalization is a constitutionally mandated program, and, Quebec is not even close to the largest per capita recipient. I really don't understand the hatred for Quebec from other parts of Canada (at least on the part of some people) Edited August 29, 2012 by Smallc

[Boges]

I really don't understand the hatred from Quebec for other parts of Canada.

They're french.

[Smallc]

They're french.

[PIK]

Oh please. Everything that Quebec does is constitutionally allowed in any other province. Equalization is a constitutionally mandated program, and, Quebec is not even close to the largest per capita recipient. I really don't understand the hatred for Quebec from other parts of Canada (at least on the part of some people)

Are you talking equalization payments? Because getting 50% of all of it, is getting more then the rest.

Edited August 29, 2012 by PIK

[Smallc]

Are you talking equalization payments? Because getting 50% of all of it, is getting more then the rest.

Read the line again. The total payment is not what's important, but rather, the payment for person.

[madmax]

Read the line again. The total payment is not what's important, but rather, the payment for person.

I think you have debunked the Equalization myth many times over the years that everyone should have an idea how it works by now.

Some would prefer that it work they way the believe regardless of the accuracy because it sounds better and sounds plausible regardless of being completely wrong.

PS you are appearing like a Constitutional policy wonk....

Edited August 29, 2012 by madmax

[PIK]

Read the line again. The total payment is not what's important, but rather, the payment for person.

So why did quebec get so much more then the ROC?

[Smallc]

So why did quebec get so much more then the ROC?

Quebec gets more in total than other provinces because they have a larger population than any other province on the receiving end of Equalization, except for Ontario. Ontario has a higher fiscal capacity as determined by the formula currently in use (The one the Conservatives made) and so doesn't need much per person, and only about $3B in total.

[PIK]

Quebec gets more in total than other provinces because they have a larger population than any other province on the receiving end of Equalization, except for Ontario. Ontario has a higher fiscal capacity as determined by the formula currently in use (The one the Conservatives made) and so doesn't need much per person, and only about $3B in total.

But 50% of it since 57, come on small.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/08/17/quebec-proves-that-not-all-is-equal-in-canadas-equalization-payment-program

Edited August 29, 2012 by PIK

[TheNewTeddy]

Quebec still does not get as much per capita as PEI or Newfoundland.

[Smallc]

But 50% of it since 57, come on small.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/08/17/quebec-proves-that-not-all-is-equal-in-canadas-equalization-payment-program

You're not listening....or reading. It's not about the total.

[PIK]

You're not listening....or reading. It's not about the total.

And you are ducking the question, show me the numbers that show quebec deserved 50% of the money,What you are saying 50% of the pop lives in quebec.

[Smallc]

And you are ducking the question, show me the numbers that show quebec deserved 50% of the money,What you are saying 50% of the pop lives in quebec.

You're not understanding the answer or the program. I really can't help you, other than this:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp

[Tilter]

Quebec still does not get as much per capita as PEI or Newfoundland.

If Oil/Hydro/Newfoundland gets bal/payments why doesn't Alberta?

[PIK]

You're not understanding the answer or the program. I really can't help you, other than this:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp

So it was originally set up to favour quebec then?

Edited August 29, 2012 by PIK

[Smallc]

So it was originally set up to favour quebec then?

I'm not sure I can make you understand.

[madmax]

So it was originally set up to favour quebec then?

Equalization payments do not involve wealthy provinces making direct payments to poor provinces as the money comes from the federal treasury. As an example, a wealthy citizen in New Brunswick, a so-called "have not" province, pays more tax into the federal system and funds more equalization than a poorer citizen in Alberta that pays less federal tax, a so-called "have" province

[TheNewTeddy]

PIK, do you even know what Equalization is? If not, you really have no business trying to debate it.

Try reading this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada

all of it.

[segnosaur]

Equalization is a constitutionally mandated program, and, Quebec is not even close to the largest per capita recipient.

While it is true that there are other provinces that receive higher payments per-capita, I think the main issues is why they receive such payments and what they use the money for.

If I remember correctly, some of the Maritime provinces receive higher per-capita payments. However, those provinces have a relatively small population base (i.e. not much potential for heavy industry) and few resources (e.g. the fishery industry in many areas have collapsed). We don't feel bad about transfer payments to them because they appear to truly need them. Quebec, with a relatively large population base and significant resources (hydro, mineral, etc.) should be able to do without transfers. Yet they receive them, and the money is often spent on social programs that exceed those in other provinces (e.g. fully funded daycare, lower student tuition fees, etc.).

The second issue is one of, well, gratitude. There is a perception from the "rest of Canada" that Quebec doesn't really appreciate transfers from the rest of Canada. Assumptions by Quebec that they can 'go it alone' financially (i.e. separate), as well as occasional polls that show at least some Quebec citizens falsely think their province is a net contributor to Canada.

I really don't understand the hatred for Quebec from other parts of Canada (at least on the part of some people)

Well, apart from the issue of transfers that were covered earlier, there are a few other issues:

- The tendency of some governments to appease Quebec (e.g. Mulroney giving F18 maintenance contracts to a firm from Quebec rather than Manitoba, more dairy production quotas for Quebec, etc.)

- Holding referendums on separation do have a negative effect on Canada's economy due to the uncertainty they cause, and do give an air of ungratitude. And even though most Quebecers voted to stay in Canada, they still elected many politicians, federally and provincially who favored separation.

[Smallc]

While it is true that there are other provinces that receive higher payments per-capita, I think the main issues is why they receive such payments and what they use the money for.

Equalization money doesn't come with strings attached. Provinces are free to set their own destiny.

If I remember correctly, some of the Maritime provinces receive higher per-capita payments.

Significantly higher.

However, those provinces have a relatively small population base (i.e. not much potential for heavy industry) and few resources (e.g. the fishery industry in many areas have collapsed).

While that is true, it isn't so easy to just look at that and say that the province should be doing better. The program is one of averages, and provinces like Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Newfoundland and Labrador bring up the averages so much that it's hard for provinces (which would be pretty rich outside of the Canadian context) to keep up. That said, Quebec's per capita GDP is more in line with the maritimes, and less in line with Ontario, Manitoba (which, for some reason, get's more equalization with a higher per capita GDP than Quebec), and BC, the middle economy provinces.

The second issue is one of, well, gratitude.

I can see that in a way I guess.

[cybercoma]

I'm not sure I can make you understand.

Let me help you, sir. You can't.

[segnosaur]

While it is true that there are other provinces that receive higher payments per-capita, I think the main issues is why they receive such payments and what they use the money for.

Equalization money doesn't come with strings attached.

I never claimed there were strings attached. But seeing a "have not" province with social programs more generous than the ones I receive doesn't make me look too fondly at the whole equalization program.

However, those provinces (the maritimes) have a relatively small population base (i.e. not much potential for heavy industry) and few resources (e.g. the fishery industry in many areas have collapsed).

While that is true, it isn't so easy to just look at that and say that the province should be doing better.

And why not?

We know that the products that Quebec produces haven't really suffered in price or demand lately. Its a net exporter to the rest of Canada. You should expect it to be doing well.

The program is one of averages, and provinces like Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Newfoundland and Labrador bring up the averages so much that it's hard for provinces (which would be pretty rich outside of the Canadian context) to keep up. That said, Quebec's per capita GDP is more in line with the maritimes, and less in line with Ontario...

The problem with looking at GDP is that its a function of both external forces (prices and demand for products, etc.) and internal management. While Quebec's economy supposedly suffers so much that it needs equalization payments, it holds referendums on separation that serve to drive its economy even further into the ground.

[Smallc]

holds referendums on separation that serve to drive its economy even further into the ground.

And I agree with you on this point. That's why I'm not looking forward to next week's outcome.

[westguy]

Equalization payments do not involve wealthy provinces making direct payments to poor provinces as the money comes from the federal treasury. As an example, a wealthy citizen in New Brunswick, a so-called "have not" province, pays more tax into the federal system and funds more equalization than a poorer citizen in Alberta that pays less federal tax, a so-called "have" province

where do you think the federal treasury gets its money?