Questions, Misconceptions, Objections,..etc,

[Guest Manny]

Even if it did, why would that matter? It wouldn't prove the existence of god. I'm sure there are plenty of other instances in many other holy books where true believers can point to and say "see? SEE? God wrote this cuz it happens to be sort of what we know now to be true".

And when it doesn't work out that way, they pull something out of their ass that is ridiculous to anyone with half a brain but proves the bible is predictive and "true". I read somewhere how people shouldn't take the 6 days as literal, but that they are 6 "god days", which are much longer than normal days.... See? Bible is true!

Am guessing you did not watch the video by Sir Martin Rees.

[betsy]

The same word was used 11 times in the original Hebrew text? And it is still used today by Israeli scientists to describe the expension of the Universe? Care to show me what the Hebrew word is?

Btw, did you post your reply to Moonlight Graham's question about gay marriage in the other thread? You said you'll reply as soon as you got back from vacation. Now you're back....

[CANADIEN]

Even if it did, why would that matter? It wouldn't prove the existence of god. I'm sure there are plenty of other instances in many other holy books where true believers can point to and say "see? SEE? God wrote this cuz it happens to be sort of what we know now to be true".

And when it doesn't work out that way, they pull something out of their ass that is ridiculous to anyone with half a brain but proves the bible is predictive and "true". I read somewhere how people shouldn't take the 6 days as literal, but that they are 6 "god days", which are much longer than normal days.... See? Bible is true!

But the Bible is true. It IS the word of God. What it is not is a manual on how God created the Universe or the mechanics of it.

The message is "I am God and I created the Universe". It is not "I am God, this is how the Universe works and don't worry if you don't get it, I'll make sure your descendants a few hundreds generations from now do."

[GostHacked]

Btw, did you post your reply to Moonlight Graham's question about gay marriage in the other thread? You said you'll reply as soon as you got back from vacation. Now you're back....

He'll get on it as soon as you address some of his questions in THIS thread.

[The_Squid]

But the Bible is true. It IS the word of God.

Did God tell you this? I find the "truth" about which religion is "the truth" is rather a gray area...

Go to a different church and they will tell you the same thing about their holy book. Why should I believe you and not them?

What it is not is a manual on how God created the Universe or the mechanics of it.

The message is "I am God and I created the Universe". It is not "I am God, this is how the Universe works and don't worry if you don't get it, I'll make sure your descendants a few hundreds generations from now do."

I certainly agree with you on that point...

[betsy]

But the Bible is true. It IS the word of God. What it is not is a manual on how God created the Universe or the mechanics of it.

The message is "I am God and I created the Universe". It is not "I am God, this is how the Universe works and don't worry if you don't get it, I'll make sure your descendants a few hundreds generations from now do."

Yes, it's not a manual HOW He created the universe. The Bible, however, apparently gives descriptions of the universe (depending on what God wants and when He wants to reveal to the present and to the future generations) - as discovered and supported by science.

Isaiah 46:

8 “Remember this, keep it in mind,

take it to heart, you rebels.

9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;

I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is none like me.

10 I make known the end from the beginning,

from ancient times, what is still to come.

I say, ‘My purpose will stand,

and I will do all that I please.’

[CANADIEN]

Yes, it's not a manual HOW He created the universe. The Bible, however, apparently gives descriptions of the universe (depending on what God wants and when He wants to reveal to the present and to the future generations) - as discovered and supported by science.

My actual point was that the Bible is not a manual on how the Universe works (unlesws, as usual, you know better than me what my point is).

The notion that the Bible includes descriptions of the Universe only makes sense if the original texts (those written in Hebrew) provide such a description. The claim is based on the fact the English translation uses the same word 11 times in a similar context. Since that's not true of translations in some other languages, one has to go back to the original text and the original Hebrew word(s).

Unless of course God sisn't include a description of the Universe in the original biblical texts, waited until the King James version to include such description, and didn't think French-speakers were entitled to such knowledge.

[cybercoma]

Can someone point me to the part of the Bible that explains covalent bonds? Thanks.

[The_Squid]

Can someone point me to the part of the Bible that explains covalent bonds? Thanks.

LOL

What about turgor pressure? DNA? gravity??? Anything??

[Guest Manny]

Can someone point me to the part of the Bible that explains covalent bonds? Thanks.

It probably doesn't say that, anywhere. I consider the bible to be one of several important ancient writings. But I don't think any of them cover it to that detail. Ancient myths that describe creation tend to use imagery that's far more generalized. More on a cosmic scale perhaps, than on the sub-atomic.

What we have done today is uncovered more complexity in it, and found mathematical formulas that describe, empirically, how a certain scientific phenomenon works.

Interestingly enough most of the scientists I know are in fact religious. That could be a coincidence and it doesn't matter. But the point is they have reconciled any conflict in their minds about the whole science vs god thing. In their view there is no separation between the two; science is merely uncovering the mysteries that god has covered up or concealed from us.

[CANADIEN]

LOL

What about turgor pressure? DNA? gravity??? Anything??

Actually, betsy posted something a few months ago claiming that the Bible describes gravity.

The passage, if I am not mistaken, is...

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Job 26:7 NIV

Problem is... Gravity is not suspension, no matter how one looks at it. The idea of suspension (barely) fit newtonian of gravity, and even thn one has to well.. suspend understanding of science. And the idea of suspension doesn't match understanding of gravity that arose from relativity and quantum mechanics.

[betsy]

My actual point was that the Bible is not a manual on how the Universe works (unlesws, as usual, you know better than me what my point is).

The notion that the Bible includes descriptions of the Universe only makes sense if the original texts (those written in Hebrew) provide such a description. The claim is based on the fact the English translation uses the same word 11 times in a similar context. Since that's not true of translations in some other languages, one has to go back to the original text and the original Hebrew word(s).

Why shouldn't they include the descriptions? Words may not be that precised but the message being given by God should be - otherwise, you're saying our current Bible should no longer be considered to be the Word of God?

Unless of course God sisn't include a description of the Universe in the original biblical texts, waited until the King James version to include such description, and didn't think French-speakers were entitled to such knowledge.

As I've said before, and I'll repeat again - it doesn't matter whether the translation is not exactly the same from the original text. What matters is that the word, "stretches," which accurately describes what's happening to the universe (which was only understood by science in 1929) ended up appearing in the Bible!

Who knows, perhaps God did wait for a certain time to have that word to appear. Perhaps He did wait for the time when we'll actually understand what's being described (through modern technology)! How do we actually understand what God's plan is? Do you understand what His plan is?

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Actually, betsy posted something a few months ago claiming that the Bible describes gravity.

The passage, if I am not mistaken, is...

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Job 26:7 NIV

Problem is... Gravity is not suspension, no matter how one looks at it. The idea of suspension (barely) fit newtonian of gravity, and even thn one has to well.. suspend understanding of science. And the idea of suspension doesn't match understanding of gravity that arose from relativity and quantum mechanics.

You've been giving such confusing mixed messages. On one hand you say the Bible is the Word of God.....and yet on the other, you find such difficulty accepting that science could've been given to us - the future generation - to make us understand that He is indeed God. That science is here not to prove that there is no God - but to eventually, actually prove that there is God! To magnify God. To glorify God! Who knows?

As I've asked you before regarding gay marriage - as a Christian to a fellow-Christian - I'll ask you on this too.

What's your point, Canadien? Explain why you seem to have such problems with science being associated with The Bible. Explain your exact position.

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

And I've lifted this STATEMENT you made from the other topic, "Persecution..." since I don't want to have Kimmy's topic derailed again.

You said:

Now - this is what I think of homosexual acts. They are sinful (cue to a number of people calling me all kinds of things for that). But we are all sinners, all of us. And I have seen sins far worse than that one - prejudice, hatred, envy, warmongering, contempt for the poor, the hungry, the stranger, to name a few.

Since I am not as clueless as you, not only do I get a sense of what people in a committed same-sex relationship do in bed besides sleeping, but I know that is more to a long, loving relationship than sex. A lot more. Being there for one another, rejoicing in what ever good there is in the other, celebrating with that person, mourning with that person, supporting each other in hard times.

And whatever I can think of any sin people in a loving, caring relationship may be committing, I say good for them if they have somebody they care for and who cares for them, in which they have found good to rejoice in and who have found what is good in them, whom they celebrate with, whom they mourn with, whom they support and who supports them in hard time. Wanting THAT for other people is called loving others like one-self.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19801&st=825

After all your long efforts to justify the acceptance of same-sex marriage, I've highlighted what I'm responding to.

As you identified yourself as a Christian, therefore you do know the consequence of such sexual act (unless perhaps they don't have sexual union and just want the non-sexual companionship of one another) - I assume you have read the Bible and understood perfectly well what's been stated in them (I've even provided some verses in that topic)....

...... how can you say, your acceptance of that is a sample of "loving others like one's self".....when you know that by persisting in that union which God finds so offensive, they are alienated from God?

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Being there for one another, rejoicing in what ever good there is in the other, celebrating with that person, mourning with that person, supporting each other in hard times.

And whatever I can think of any sin people in a loving, caring relationship may be committing, I say good for them if they have somebody they care for and who cares for them, in which they have found good to rejoice in and who have found what is good in them, whom they celebrate with, whom they mourn with, whom they support and who supports them in hard time. Wanting THAT for other people is called loving others like one-self.

As an example, you find yourself in love with woman.....that, she is your "soulmate"...that you find there is more to the sexual union with her that's more meaningful for you....she rejoices and mourns with you, undertands you and supports you more than your own wife ever did....is that justification to leave your own wife and cleave with another woman? Is that justification to commit adultery?

Will you encourage other maried people indulging in adultery for the very same reasons you've stated above to justify same-sex union, to go for it? Will you say, "good for them" when you know they're going against God's will?

When you fully know what God thinks of adultery - will you still encourage them to go against Him?

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[bleeding heart]

Interestingly enough most of the scientists I know are in fact religious.

I've heard that scientists are disproportionately atheist by percentage.

But I don't know for sure if this is true.

[CANADIEN]

Why shouldn't they include the descriptions? Words may not be that precised but the message being given by God should be - otherwise, you're saying our current Bible should no longer be considered to be the Word of God?

Here we go again. Thanks for enlightening me on the fact that I do not consider the Bbible to be the Word of God. You're so good, always knowing better than me what I actually think, say and mean.

I know this is not related... But would you care to use your extensive knowledge of what I think to tell me want I want for dinner tonight? I was thinking chicken, but since you know better than me what I really want, please please ell me what it is. That way, I will get my dinner really much quicker once I arrie home.

As I've said before, and I'll repeat again - it doesn't matter whether the translation is not exactly the same from the original text. What matters is that the word, "stretches," which accurately describes what's happening to the universe (which was only understood by science in 1929) ended up appearing in the Bible!

Who knows, perhaps God did wait for a certain time to have that word to appear. Perhaps He did wait for the time when we'll actually understand what's being described (through modern technology)! How do we actually understand what God's plan is? Do you understand what His plan is?

So...English-speakers at the time of the King James translation were ready to understand the concept of the Unverse stretching (even though that knowledge would come 3 centuries later)? Interesting that French-speakers of that time, to name only one group, were apparently not ready to understand the same thing, since different words are used in the passages you like so much.

The notion that God waited until such time when some people would be able to understand (a few centuries later) the meaning of the text to change the text means one thing. The Hebrew Bible of 2600 years ago is not the same as the King James Bible (and I am not tlking about the New Testament being the sole difference here). In turn, French, Spanish, Talalog Bibles are not the same Bibles as well. There is not one word of God, there are many words of God. Excuse me if I find the notion utterly ridiculous.

BTW, if God waited until the early 17th century to change the Bible, that means that, contrary to what you've claimed, people thousands of years ago did not include in the Bible those words that get you in such a frenzy. Right?

[CANADIEN]

You've been giving such confusing mixed messages. On one hand you say the Bible is the Word of God.....and yet on the other, you find such difficulty accepting that science could've been given to us - the future generation - to make us understand that He is indeed God. That science is here not to prove that there is no God - but to eventually, actually prove that there is God! To magnify God. To glorify God! Who knows?

As I've asked you before regarding gay marriage - as a Christian to a fellow-Christian - I'll ask you on this too.

What's your point, Canadien? Explain why you seem to have such problems with science being associated with The Bible. Explain your exact position.

Here we go again. What I mean appears to be clear enough to everyone else, except you. But you, of course, know better than I what I actually think, mean and say. So I will spare myself the time and energy and go ahead to the unavoidable conclusion of the whole thing - you telling me what my position is. So you tell me. What is my position? You tell me.

[CANADIEN]

And I've lifted this STATEMENT you made from the other topic, "Persecution..." since I don't want to have Kimmy's topic derailed again.

You said:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19801&st=825

After all your long efforts to justify the acceptance of same-sex marriage, I've highlighted what I'm responding to.

As you identified yourself as a Christian, therefore you do know the consequence of such sexual act (unless perhaps they don't have sexual union and just want the non-sexual companionship of one another) - I assume you have read the Bible and understood perfectly well what's been stated in them (I've even provided some verses in that topic)....

...... how can you say, your acceptance of that is a sample of "loving others like one's self".....when you know that by persisting in that union which God finds so offensive, they are alienated from God?

Thanks for reminding me, once again, that what I think is not actually what I think, but your intepretation of it. Now, you want to introduce the issue of adultery? Good, you tell me what I think about adultery. Since you know better than I what I do actually think, shouldn't be too difficult for you, and it will save me some time.

[betsy]

Here we go again. Thanks for enlightening me on the fact that I do not consider the Bbible to be the Word of God. You're so good, always knowing better than me what I actually think, say and mean.

Eh? See that question mark? I was asking you.....

Anyway, gotta go.....continue later.

[betsy]

Here we go again. Thanks for enlightening me on the fact that I do not consider the Bbible to be the Word of God. You're so good, always knowing better than me what I actually think, say and mean.

I know this is not related... But would you care to use your extensive knowledge of what I think to tell me want I want for dinner tonight? I was thinking chicken, but since you know better than me what I really want, please please ell me what it is. That way, I will get my dinner really much quicker once I arrie home.

I wasn't telling you what you think. I was asking you. You're so full of contradictions even in that gay union discussion.

Your statement to another poster is contradictory to your claim, "The Bible is the Word of God."

Since you're saying that the various translations of the Bible from Hebrew to different languages does not translate well thereby the message gets changed, you are actually suggesting our Bibles that's not in Hebrew, are not the Word of God!

Furthermore, since obviously you don't understand Hebrew - otherwise you would've gladly explained the big difference in meaning between Hebrew and the current translations - you're pulling things out of thin air! :lol:

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Table 21. Bible References to Stretching Out of the Heavens

Job 9:8 “[God] stretches out the heavens”

Ps 104:2 “stretching out heaven like a tent curtain”2

Is 40:22 “He ... stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent”2

Is 42:5 “... God the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out”

Is 44:24 “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself”

Is 45:12 “It is I who made the earth and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands”

Is 48:13 “Surely My hand founded the earth and My right hand spread out the heavens.”

Is 51:13 “... the Lord your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth”

Jer 10:12 “He has stretched out the heavens”

Jer 51:15 “He stretched out the heavens”

Zech 12:1 “the Lord who stretches out the heavens”

The context of each of the above verses deals with creation. Although past and present tenses (stretched and stretches) are expressed in these English translations, Hebrew verbs do not generally convey past, present, or future. Translators must rely on context and other clues to determine verb tense.

Even if we knew the intended Hebrew tense, is the stretching from God’s perspective or man’s? The creation was completed in six days (Exodus 20:11), suggesting that in God’s time the heavens were stretched out during the creation week, perhaps on Day 4. However, in our time, some redshifted light from extreme distances—a consequence of this past stretching—is reaching us now.

The Hebrew word for stretched is natah. It does not mean an explosion, a flinging out, or the type of stretching that encounters increasing resistance, as with a spring or rubber band. Natah is more like the effortless reaching out of one’s hand.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ15.html

So yes, it provides such description!

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Here we go again. What I mean appears to be clear enough to everyone else, except you. But you, of course, know better than I what I actually think, mean and say. So I will spare myself the time and energy and go ahead to the unavoidable conclusion of the whole thing - you telling me what my position is. So you tell me. What is my position? You tell me.

Ha-ha-ha. Duck, duck, deflect!

You didn't answer Moonlight's question either....

Moonlight Graham:

I haven't been keeping with this discussion. So why do you not believe SSM is right, and how is this decision informed by your Christian beliefs in God?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19801&st=795

......because obviously you can't have it both ways!

Thanks for reminding me, once again, that what I think is not actually what I think, but your intepretation of it. Now, you want to introduce the issue of adultery? Good, you tell me what I think about adultery. Since you know better than I what I do actually think, shouldn't be too difficult for you, and it will save me some time.

Same as you can't answer this one either.

Why should I even bother with your silly little so-called arguments?? When you obviously don't even know it yourself whether you're coming or going....

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Oh canadien....you and your contradictory merry ways!

Here is another empirical evidence how confused and non-credible you are: On the simple argument about "bullying." You even made a parody about me....

canadien

Me: 1+1 =2

You: There is someone out there who says 1+1=6

Me: He's wrong.

You: He thinks you are wrong. He wants you to change your mind. He's a bully who wants to share your equation.

Me: Uh? That,s not bullying, and 1+1 = 2

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19801&st=765

Canadien:

No 1: The chocolate is mine

No 2: I don't want your chocolate bar, I just want some of that other one over there.

No 1: You want to force me to share my chocolate bar away from me. You're a bully

Me: Hope you like your chocolate bar, no 1. What do you think of that bag of chips no 2?

No 2: It's a chocolate bar

No 1: See? He wants my chocolate bar, he's a bully

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19801&st=765

canadien:

And that I don't feel bullied or threatened or whatever just because people who think differently from me think I am wrong and should change my opinion (how they do it, of course, being a different matter).

Cybercoma

Then you're nothing more than an oppressive jerk that doesn't deserve the time of day. Why anyone would want to prevent two people who love each other from being able to marry is beyond me. The fact that you would use political and legal channels to prevent others from being happy is disgusting.

canadien

An oppressive jerk? As much as you are a bully, I guess L. If that's your opinion, so be it. Let's just be clear on one thing , shall we? If two people of the same gender want be happy and grow old together, good for them. They want to make their union official, they can go for it. It is not a marriage.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19801&st=780

You call that, bullying? For being called an oppressive jerk???

Ha-ha-ha! ROFL Ha-ha-ha!

Edited September 18, 2012 by betsy

[g_bambino]

So...English-speakers at the time of the King James translation were ready to understand the concept of the Unverse stretching (even though that knowledge would come 3 centuries later)? Interesting that French-speakers of that time, to name only one group, were apparently not ready to understand the same thing, since different words are used in the passages you like so much...

The Hebrew Bible of 2600 years ago is not the same as the King James Bible (and I am not tlking about the New Testament being the sole difference here). In turn, French, Spanish, Talalog Bibles are not the same Bibles as well. There is not one word of God, there are many words of God. Excuse me if I find the notion utterly ridiculous.

At least there's no debate about the non-existence of betsy's response to the above.