And the World (the Ummah That Is) Looks Just the Same...

[Rue]

my comment was correct. the jews in palestine did live peacefully with the arabs in palestine. what happened in other countries and areas in the past is not a fault of the palestinians who were forced to give up most of their land so that european jews could move in.

No its not and therein lies your continuing lack of credibility. Being what you are you can't possibly imagine there is any version of history of truth but your own and so that renders you no different than JBG a shrill. A pathetic shrill who

reduces complex disputes into black and white simplistic labels.

To start with by populationa lone, more non Palestinian Arab Muslims displaced native non Jewish Palestinians than European Jews ever did. You would realize that if you bothered to just once put down your one sided rhetoric and propoganda and examine the population influx into Palestine after Britain imposed an immigration policy to flood the area with Arab peoples to prevent a Jewish state from forming.

Churchill was only too glad to explain this policy in his memoirs. Millions of Arabs flooded Palestine and displaced those native Palestinians. This is why Jordan had a civil war between Jordanians and Palestinians that deported Arafat who tried to kill King Hussein and it was only at that point Arafat coined the term Palestinian national. But oh hey you knew that.

Your convenient take on history lumps all outsider Arabs who flooded into Palestine and their descendans as Palestinians and anyone Jewish as an outsider. Save your revisionism.

Save that Syrian disinformation rewrite of history for someone else. It was in fact written by former Nazis who moved to Syria and manufactured it for the Syrian Ministry of Information. At least find out where you spew your recycled kack from.

The actual true Palestinian itinerant farmers were displaced by fellow Arabs and Muslims far more then they were by Jews. Fact is the majority of people today called Palestinian are descended from non Palestinian Arabs who moved there just as much as Jews did.

More to the point your trying to rewrite history or JBG's efforts are equally pointless.

The two of you can distort the past all you want, it won't change the present or the future and in the grand scheme of things your hateful polarizing rhetoric means nothing.

Get it through your hateful people today called Palestinians may be descendant from actual itinerant Palestinians or those who flooded the area in the 1920's onwords. Those who are now called Israelis might have been Jews from the holocaust (oh how convenient you sanitize it as simply "Europe') but more came from being thrown out of Arab countries and non European countris-as many if not more than the actual number of Arabs displaced from Palestine some of whom were Palestinian and some of whom moved to Palestine.

Not all Israelis came from Europe hard as it is for your black and white rigid stereotyping mind to decipher.

Today Israelis have come from many countries other than Europe and no not all are Jews. There are Christian Israelis, Duze Israelis, Muslim (Arab) Israelis, Bahai Israelis, Albanian Muslim Israelis, Rastafarians, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics. There are even Jewish Israelis who are ultra orthodox and do not believe in the State of Israel's existence

and sorry to burst your bubble some of the bravest Israeli soldiers were Muslim/Arab and Druze.Shove your European Jew sterotype up your keester. Save it for when you wink wink nudge nudge talk about dah Jooz to your real audience. Remember this one has people who know not all us JOOOOOOOZ practice Judaism the religion the same way or at all or have the identical

opinions about Israeli foreign or internal policies. Hard as that is for you to fathom.

Israelis and Palestinians whatever their origin are where they are to stay. It matters little what their origins are. Go save your exchange fwith JBG for some public washroom at Macy's in New York where it belongs. ( I had the pleasure of walking into such a discussion one time and there I was simply wanting to dispose of some uric acid imagine that )

The fact is both peoples de facto exist and can go no where and none of your rheoric changes that.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Rue

[bud]

blah blah, i'm right, you're wrong, i type, i type, i pat myself on the back, i give no citation, i just type, and type some more, i say you're wrong without citing where you're wrong, blah blah, drivel, drivel, i am the authority on this, you're not, i just type, and type some more, i make some stuff up about you, i type, it's time to take my pill.

[jbg]

No its not and therein lies your continuing lack of credibility. Being what you are you can't possibly imagine there is any version of history of truth but your own and so that renders you no different than JBG a shrill. A pathetic shrill who (unexplained hard return)

reduces complex disputes into black and white simplistic labels....Go save your exchange for JBG for some public washroom.

To my mind there is nothing wrong with a little simplicity. Or injecting the notion of right and wrong into an argument. And I am not the one who is rude and nasty to almost all posters.

To start with (analysis by???) by populationa alone, more non Palestinian Arab Muslims displaced native non Jewish Palestinians than European Jews ever did. You would realize that if you bothered to just once put down your one sided rhetoric and propoganda propaganda and examine the population influx into Palestine after Britain imposed an immigration policy to flood the area with Arab peoples to prevent a Jewish state from forming.

Corrections or additions underlined. Deleted typos marked.

Edited September 7, 2012 by jbg

[eyeball]

There was never an independent Palestine, or Palestinian people.

If the creation of Israel was not an act of liberation I don't know what is.

I bet the people, whoever they were, that were dispossessed and displaced by the liberation/creation know.

Edited September 7, 2012 by eyeball

[wyly]

Churchill was only too glad to explain this policy in his memoirs. Millions of Arabs flooded Palestine and displaced those native Palestinians. This is why Jordan had a civil war between Jordanians and Palestinians that deported Arafat who tried to kill King Hussein and it was only at that point Arafat coined the term Palestinian national. But oh hey you knew that.

Your convenient take on history lumps all outsider Arabs who flooded into Palestine and their descendans as Palestinians and anyone Jewish as an outsider. Save your revisionism.

what BS you really are talikng out of your butt..."millions of arabs" in 1938 there were an estimated 1.3 million palestinians in palestine, how does "millions" of arabs only add up to 1.3 million?... population estimate for 1900 was 600,000 hey rue where did those millions go? evaporation? an increase of 600K to 1 million over 50yrs can be atributed to natural growth and early census never included nomadic 100-200K Bedouin... as well return migration from trans jordan wouldn't count either that would be like migrating from sask to alberta... ...best estimates for non jewish migration fall between 100 and 200K....

[bud]

what BS you really are talikng out of your butt..."millions of arabs" in 1938 there were an estimated 1.3 million palestinians in palestine, how does "millions" of arabs only add up to 1.3 million?... population estimate for 1900 was 600,000 hey rue where did those millions go? evaporation? an increase of 600K to 1 million over 50yrs can be atributed to natural growth and early census never included nomadic 100-200K Bedouin... as well return migration from trans jordan wouldn't count either that would be like migrating from sask to alberta... ...best estimates for non jewish migration fall between 100 and 200K....

further to the information above, over 90% of the population of palestine, before the mass zionist migration from mostly eastern europe, were arabs. another bit of information that is forgotten by many including the hasbara bot are the refugees, whose right of return was recognized in UN resolution 194 of 1948. more information on this is below*. i mean, talk about pogroms eh bonam? 85% of the palestinian population was driven out or were forced to flee. thousands were slaughtered. over 500 villages demolished. happy birthday israel!

rue lives in his own little world in his own little mind where he's the funniest and most informed poster here. in his little world, he likes to re-create history of the world. he also likes to invent positions and statements made by others. i used to try to engage him but soon realized that it's useless to try to engage with those who are mentally unstable.

* In the hostilities of 1948, 85% of the Palestinian population abandoned their homes, fleeing to the West Bank and Gaza, where one third, 15% of the Palestinian diaspora, still resides, and to the contiguous countries of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.[8] They, and their descendents, who are also entitled to registration, are assisted by UNWRA in 58 registered camps, 10 of which were established in the aftermath of the Six Day War in 1967 to cope with new Palestinian refugees.[9] Including unregistered, displaced persons and refugee descendents, the Palestinians refugee and displaced population is the largest in the world.

[Bonam]

* In the hostilities of 1948, 85% of the Palestinian population abandoned their homes, fleeing to the West Bank and Gaza...

Their mistake. The ones that stayed in Israel in 1948 are now citizens and enjoy better livelihoods and freedoms than the vast majority of Arabs. The majority left of their free will, at the suggestion/urging of their corrupt and murderous leaders.

[bud]

Their mistake.

really now? their mistake that most were forced out or escaped the violent jewish militants who were going village to village destroying them? their mistake that 500 villages were demolished? what's next, you're going to blame women for being raped?

you need to take a little time to learn what happened or you need to stop denying that you support a country with a disgusting history and a disgusting present:

oh and hey look bonam, you skipped over another point showing that you're unable to respond to facts which show the dark and disgusting behaviour of israel:

further to the information above, over 90% of the population of palestine, before the mass zionist migration from mostly eastern europe, were arabs. another bit of information that is forgotten by many including the hasbara bot are the refugees, whose right of return was recognized in UN resolution 194 of 1948. more information on this is below*. i mean, talk about pogroms eh bonam? 85% of the palestinian population was driven out or were forced to flee. thousands were slaughtered. over 500 villages demolished. happy birthday israel!

Edited September 8, 2012 by bud

[Rue]

know of any crazy zealot jews?

Oh here we go with the Jew baiting. Oh Bleeding Heart you smell? Can Bud go a thread without making

Jew comments pretexted as alleged debate over the Palestinian conflict hmmm?

You Bud are pathetic. You won't debate me. You make fake quotes. That is the level you are at. Juvenile

and pathetic. Some Jew baiting, never ending revisionist distortion of history and then you have the

chutzbah to ask for citations from me.

Go on genius, are you denying more non Palestinian Arabs displaced Palestinians then Jews? Lol. You want me to citate that

do you. Get this clear Bud, you get zero citations from me precisely because I do not citate with children like you who

do not debate the citations and simply ignore them. If someone else asked I probably would provide a citation but for

you Bud all you get is me repeating to this forum that you are a hate monger who uses the pretext of debate about Israel

to bait Jews. That is all you are. A pathetic child who baits Jews. No more no less.

As for JBG and his whining I am rude, he like you reduces this debate to moronic black and white name calling and yes there is something wrong with it. Its called being intellectually lazy. For extremists like you 2 and the hew horseflies attracted to your words, there is nothing wrong with it. Your pee braisn can't frame the conflict any other way.

For most of us though we see a complex maze of inter-related issues.

You and JBG find me rude. Hah. Why would I use any other tone when the two of you come on this forum to be hate mongers hmm?

You think either of you are entitled to any politeness with the sheer volume of hatred the two of you have spilled on this forum.

Get is clear you 2 hate mongers, you spit out venom, the venom is thrown back in your face. Don't pee up wind if you want your face to stay dry you pathetic hate mongers and take this thread and shove it.

Its just an other example of stereotyping to incite hatred.

[Rue]

Now fools like Bud come on this forum, spew absolute mistruths about

hitoric facts and time lines then demand citations to prove them wrong.

I do not play such games because the tactics of the Buds are then to take the

citations and simply dismiss them as Zionist likes written by Zionists.

Its why I will not debate a person like Bud who uses forums to spread

misinformation to incite hatred.

However I do point out for anyone who wants to take a look at the migration

of both non Palestinian Jews and non Palestinian Arabs/Muslims to Israel and

how in fact more Arab Muslim non Palestinians would have displaced Palestinians than

Jews from Europe as Bud continually suggests to take a look at:

http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking-gun-arab-immigration-into-palestine

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/mandate.html

[Rue]

If one goes to the 1525/6 Ottoman census which was said to have been conducted 8 years after the Mamluk defeat in 1516, the population west to the Jordan valley was reported to be 120,000.

Mopst historic texts then state by the end of the 16th century, the population there was about 206,000 thousand.

Then most history texts say about 200 years later when Muhammad Ali of Egypt conquered Palestine from the Ottomans and Egypt settled along the shore and the valleys, about 100,000 Egyptian peasants added to the population.

This is why it is explained the Muslim population of Palestine jumped between1840 and 1880. In 1880, the population of Palestine to 300,000 people.

That is historic fact any one can find in texts. No one disputes that. Of course Bud who is an historian already knew the above.

It is also well known historic fact that no one disputes except Buddy Boy that when the Ottomans retook Palestine back they had a public well known policy of inviting Muslims from other parts of their Empire to move to Palestine.

In fact just like Israel offered its citizens tax incentives to move to the West Bank, so did the Otoman Empire with its Circassians, Bosnians, and Albanians to name a few groups and they were offered both financial incentives and tax-free status if they agreed to move to Palestine.

Now in Buddy Boy's world we ignore that part of history and just pretend all these people mnagically appeared in Palestine and were always there.

In fact what the Turks did was to bring NON Arabs to Palestine (other than Jews) to push out those Arabs who lived in Palestine. This is why the Muslim population of Palestine rose 50% from 300,000 to 600,000 in just 20 years from 1900 to 1920. That of course Bud skips. Again for him these Muslims were always there.

In fact what Bud will also skip over is that by 1920 the vast majority of these Muslims were not Arabs but as I said Muslism from the Ottoman Empire sent there to displace Arab Muslims. That is an historic fact,.

This is precisely why in 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine reported and it is there for anyone to see including Buddy Boy that there were abou 700,000 people living in Palestine of whom the majority had entered Palestine in the last 40 years.

This bullshit myth Bud spews that natice Palestinian Arabs lived there as a majority and suddenly were displaced by Jews from Europe is a crock. It is a deliberate misrepresentation of the population of Palestine that depends on people not taking the time to review the origins of the people who today call themselves Palestinians but in fact are no more aboriginal to the land then any Jews who came to Palestine or Israel during the same time periods.

The Leage of Nations report also stated that of those 700,000 people,235,000 lived in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. It also stated in fact while 4.5ths of the Palestinian population was Muslim,

only a small proportion of those Muslims would have been Bedouin Arabs and the remainder who did speak Arabic were not Arabs meaning theyw ere not aboriginal or natives born on that land and were like Jews who came to Palestine, no different in the sense that neither was Arab and both came to Palestine but were not born there.

The origins of Christian Palestinians came from the then 77,000 Christians, the majority being of Eastern Orthodoc churches and they too spoke Arabic. The Jewish element of the population numbering about 76,000 like the non Arab, non Palestinian Muslims had entered Palestine in the same 40 year period.

The historic revisionism by the pro Palesstian supporters and Arab League and now UN who says anyone who wants to call themselves a descendant of Palestinians can-deliberately ignores and rewrites the actual origins of today's self identified Palestinians.

I repeat again the definition used by the Arab world to define a Palestinian, is anyone who speaks Arabic and wishes to be identified as one. There is no other criteria.

It is a fact that as of 1920, almost all the population of Palestine has entered Palestine during the last 40 years. And there was only a small number of ethnic Arabs

The fact is Palestine was the land of immigrants: Jews from all over the world and Muslims from wherever you wish – except Arabic countries. An ignoramus like Bud who pretends he needs citations for the above can get it from any history book, or the League of Nations archives.

TTeh Chirchill Papers are also public domain and have long since proven the British Administration deliberately accelerated an influx of Mulsim immigration intio Palestine further displacing the actual native Muslim Palestinians to prevent Jewish immigration to Palestine.

Do the math. It doesn't take a genius like Buddy Boy to add it up. The population in Palestine from 1920 to 1945 grew to 1,300,000 Muslims. The population doubled in 25 years because of that influx of non Palestinian Muslims.

[Rue]

Oh wait Bud needs a citation to call a Zionist lie for my comments above. Here it is:

http://rslissak.com/content/arab-muslim-waves-immigration-palestine-land-israel-drrivka-shpak-lissak

[Rue]

Here you can ask Buddy Boy for a synopsis of the following:

http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/titledetails.asp?tid=73

Buddy Boy can explain the archives of the British Mandate.

[Rue]

e Buddy Boy explain why this essay is wrong:

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm

[jbg]

You and JBG find me rude. Hah. Why would I use any other tone when the two of you come on this forum to be hate mongers hmm?

With me at least, you definitely originated the rudeness. I made one post you objected to, I tried to apologize since our positions are very close, and you never returned my apology either on the board or in the PM.

I do find your approach needlessly nasty. Not as bad as bud but there's no need for you to personalize debate the way you have.

[GostHacked]

I find it quite humorous that we have jbg and Rue having it out with each other in these threads.

But I am sure I'll get called an anti-Semite from both the Jewish lawyer as well as the self proclaimed Zionist.

[dre]

Should we apply the same logic to how we deal with Muslims?

That happens all the time. People use the "defensive war" fallacy as the reason Palestinians dont have a right to statehood... Even though 40% of the population is under 18 years old, and very few of them were even alive during the various Arab Israeli wars.

[jbg]

I find it quite humorous that we have jbg and Rue having it out with each other in these threads.

Rue's had a problem with me for about three years. I'm at a loss for why.

But I am sure I'll get called an anti-Semite from both the Jewish lawyer as well as the self proclaimed Zionist.

I've had enough exchanges with you that I know better. I know you're a gentleman, not a Jew-hater. Edited September 10, 2012 by jbg

[dre]

Rue's had a problem with me for about three years. I'm at a loss for why.

I've had enough exchanges with you that I know better. I know you're a gentleman, not a Jew-hater.

I dont know of any jew haters here at all... Just people who see anti semitism everywhere they look. In the heart of every child and on the face of every smiling baby.

[jbg]

I dont know of any jew haters here at all... Just people who see anti semitism everywhere they look. In the heart of every child and on the face of every smiling baby.

I'm not one of them.

I disagree with your watery view of the Mideast struggle (or indeed your dry view of it). I do not see anti-semitism there.

[dre]

I'm not one of them.

I disagree with your watery view of the Mideast struggle (or indeed your dry view of it). I do not see anti-semitism there.

How can you disagree with my view on that? I dont even have a view, everything Iv posted on that topic is undisputed and documented history.

But yeah its definately not anti-semitic. In fact my view is rather exculpatory for Israel. I simply state that they wont give up the west bank or the golan heights for the exact same reason they occupied it in the first place... because they vitally need the resources they are extracting from the vast swath of civil infrasture they have built there.

Its exculpatory because once you understand that, its clear that no other nation on earth would give up those resources if they were in Israels position either, and no other nation in history has voluntarily given up such a resource.

If Israel left the occupied territories millions of Israelis would die.

Edited September 10, 2012 by dre

[wyly]

Its exculpatory because once you understand that, its clear that no other nation on earth would give up those resources if they were in Israels position either, and no other nation in history has voluntarily given up such a resource.

far from true, Russia gave up far more than israel or any other nation when it voluntarily dissolved the soviet union...the value of any of the former soviet territories dwarf the value of the west bank and gaza...

If Israel left the occupied territories millions of Israelis would die.

a gross exaggeration, did millions die when israel ethnically cleansed the palestinians from their homes...that the israeli's benefit from artificial standard of living from the theft and apartheid is beyond obscene...

[Bonam]

far from true, Russia gave up far more than israel or any other nation when it voluntarily dissolved the soviet union...the value of any of the former soviet territories dwarf the value of the west bank and gaza...

A union dissolving into its constituent parts is hardly analogous. The situations could hardly be less alike. The only similarities they share is that they involve countries and changing borders.

a gross exaggeration, did millions die when israel ethnically cleansed the palestinians from their homes...that the israeli's benefit from artificial standard of living from the theft and apartheid is beyond obscene...

Perhaps go fix your situation at home before criticizing other nations? Canada is built on the graves of the native people, those you displaced and eradicated. When are you heading back to where you came from so that Canada can be relinquished to whats left of its rightful owners again?

Edited September 10, 2012 by Bonam

[dre]

far from true, Russia gave up far more than israel or any other nation when it voluntarily dissolved the soviet union...the value of any of the former soviet territories dwarf the value of the west bank and gaza...

a gross exaggeration, did millions die when israel ethnically cleansed the palestinians from their homes...that the israeli's benefit from artificial standard of living from the theft and apartheid is beyond obscene...

When Russia lost its sattelite states the population it was expected to sustain also shrank. Its a completely different situation.

Israel gets more than 2/3rds of its fresh water from the network of wells, pipelines, and pumping stations in the occupied territories. That provides pottable drinking water to most of the Israeli population, and its also used to grow their food. Its no suprised that Ariel Sharon himself described surrendering these resources as "accepting death". I dont think the number I threw out there which was admittedly extracted directly from my ass, is an underestimation at all.

that the israeli's benefit from artificial standard of living from the theft and apartheid is beyond obscene...

I dont necessarily disagree with you on the morality of it. I think this policy represents a grave injustice. The question is though would any of the nations or people that critisize Israel really be able to do anything different in that scenario?

Edited September 10, 2012 by dre

[Bonam]

When Russia lost its sattelite states the population it was expected to sustain also shrank. Its a completely different situation.

Israel gets more than 2/3rds of its fresh water from the network of wells, pipelines, and pumping stations in the occupied territories. That provides pottable drinking water to most of the Israeli population, and its also used to grow their food. Its no suprised that Ariel Sharon himself described surrendering these resources as "accepting death". I dont think the number I threw out there which was admittedly extracted directly from my ass, is an underestimation at all.

Israel could overcome the challenge of finding new water resources if that's all that was at stake. Unfortunately, any sign of weakness on its part would only invite more terrorism and more demands for even more territory. Just like what happened in the wake of Israel's pullout from Gaza. Personally, I think that Israel will indeed some day give up the majority of the West Bank, when the Palestinians are ready to assume stewardship of their own state. But as for the Golan, I have no idea why anyone in their right mind would expect or demand that Israel would ever give it up. There are no refugees from the Golan, it is not part of any future plan for a Palestinian state, and it has huge strategic value to Israel. Not to mention, who the heck would one even propose giving it back to? Syria's murderous regime?