And the World (the Ummah That Is) Looks Just the Same...

[dre]

Israel could overcome the challenge of finding new water resources if that's all that was at stake. Unfortunately, any sign of weakness on its part would only invite more terrorism and more demands for even more territory. Just like what happened in the wake of Israel's pullout from Gaza. Personally, I think that Israel will indeed some day give up the majority of the West Bank, when the Palestinians are ready to assume stewardship of their own state. But as for the Golan, I have no idea why anyone in their right mind would expect or demand that Israel would ever give it up. There are no refugees from the Golan, it is not part of any future plan for a Palestinian state, and it has huge strategic value to Israel. Not to mention, who the heck would one even propose giving it back to? Syria's murderous regime?

There is no new water resources to find which is why Israel and its neighbors have been fighting over them for most of the last century. And the water table is receding. They could desalinate seawater and they do a bit of that, but its incredibly expensive... its not ever going to work as a primary water source.

A good example of this is Israels threat to declare war on Lebanon a few years back for pumping water out of their own river.

Not to mention that was the biggest single issue that spawned conflict post-armistice.

the major escalation took place in 1964, following Israel's completion of its National Water Carrier Project, which siphoned water from the Sea of Galilee. Arab states regarded the Israeli project as a unilateral usage of water resources outside the river basin; in response they attempted to finance and build the joint Syrian-Lebanese Headwater Diversion Plan, which would have diverted some water from flowing into Israel, particularly into the Sea of Galilee, where the National Water Carrier starts. The headwaters diversion would have directed the waters of the Banias stream into a dam at Mukhaiba for Syrian and Jordanian use, and divert the waters of the Hasbani into the Litani River for Lebanese use. The diversion works would have reduced the installed capacity of the National Water Carrier by 35%, and Israel's overall water supply by about 11%. Israel declared it would regard such a project as an infringement of its sovereign rights.

In November, when activities for the Arab diversion project started, the Israel Defense Forces launched repeated military strikes against the diversion works, which led to a prolonged chain of border clashes[4][citation needed]. The Arab countries eventually abandoned their project. Control of water resources and Israeli military attacks regarding the diversion effort are considered among the major factors which led to the Six-Day War in June 1967.

Israelis call that period in the conflict which lead to the 1967 war "הקרב על המים" or "HaKrav al HaMaim". Translated to english thats "Battle over water".

Personally, I think that Israel will indeed some day give up the majority of the West Bank

If Israel is willing to go to war over the tiny bit of water that would have been diverted by the Lebanese pumping water out of the wizzani, then what on earth makes you think they would give up the massive network of wells, pumping stations, and pipelines that they have built throughout the west bank? They have no other options.

Edited September 10, 2012 by dre

[Bonam]

There is no new water resources to find which is why Israel and its neighbors have been fighting over them for most of the last century. And the water table is receding. They could desalinate seawater and they do a bit of that, but its incredibly expensive... its not ever going to work as a primary water source.

A good example of this is Israels threat to declare war on Lebanon a few years back for pumping water out of their own river.

Not to mention that was the biggest single issue that spawned conflict post-armistice.

If Israel is willing to go to war over the tiny bit of water that would have been diverted by the Lebanese pumping water out of the wizzani, then what on earth makes you think they would give up the massive network of wells, pumping stations, and pipelines that they have built throughout the west bank? They have no other options.

Israel will have to continue to rely more and more heavily on desalination. As you said, the water table is receding, but Israel's population and that of surrounding nations is growing quickly, and so is water usage. Desalination may be expensive but it may be the only solution, and Israel is rich enough to do what it takes to provide its people with water. More desalination facilities are constantly under construction there, with desalination capacity set to double next year, providing almost 1/3 of all water for Israel. Engineering challenges are not that difficult to overcome when a whole nation decides it is a priority. Israel efforts at desalination started in earnest only about 10 years ago, in another 20-30 years they could easily provide the majority of Israel's water.

By the way, the cost of building a few desalination plants on the coast pales in comparison to the cost in blood and money of constant warfare and terrorism. If water was the ONLY issue, the conflict would be solved, and soon. Heck, the US would probably just spend a few tens of billions and give everyone in the area giant desalination plants just so some president could score the political points of having solved the Arab-Israeli conflict. But it's not. I wish it was that simple, I really do.

As for the West Bank, international political pressure to give it up is very high, and the relative importance of its water resources will continue to decline.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Bonam

[bud]

I do not play such games because the tactics of the Buds are then to take the

citations and simply dismiss them as Zionist likes written by Zionists.

you need to read benny morris' righteous victims.

Edited September 10, 2012 by bud

[bleeding heart]

I do find your approach needlessly nasty. Not as bad as bud

Now I know you're not serious.

rue vs bud on the nastiness scale? Not a contest.

[GostHacked]

There is no new water resources to find which is why Israel and its neighbors have been fighting over them for most of the last century. And the water table is receding. They could desalinate seawater and they do a bit of that, but its incredibly expensive... its not ever going to work as a primary water source.

If the fresh water is disappearing, then it does not matter how expensive it is, fresh clean water is a necessity. How much does it cost to maintain security around the water resources Israel is protecting?

[jbg]

Now I know you're not serious.

rue vs bud on the nastiness scale? Not a contest.

I'm very serious. And they're both no bargains in terms of their conduct and disposition on the Board.

[bud]

I'm very serious. And they're both no bargains in terms of their conduct and disposition on the Board.

instead of sulking because i keep calling you on the misinformation you try to pass up as facts, try answering a post for once without deflecting comments and/or running away:

here is your chance, post #1 and post #2.

[jbg]

* In the hostilities of 1948, 85% of the Palestinian population abandoned their homes, fleeing to the West Bank and Gaza, where one third, 15% of the Palestinian diaspora, still resides, and to the contiguous countries of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.[8] They, and their descendents, who are also entitled to registration, are assisted by UNWRA in 58 registered camps, 10 of which were established in the aftermath of the Six Day War in 1967 to cope with new Palestinian refugees.[9] Including unregistered, displaced persons and refugee descendents, the Palestinians refugee and displaced population is the largest in the world.

Did the Germans keep those expelled from Poland when it wobbled west to the Oder-Niesse Line in camps? Did the Israelis keep Yemeni Jews in camps?

See I accepted your invite.

Edited September 11, 2012 by jbg

[bud]

Did the Germans keep those expelled from Poland when it wobbled west to the Oder-Niesse Line in camps? Did the Israelis keep Yemeni Jews in camps?

See I accepted your invite.

that's called a deflection. here is my response:

#1 - you can't respond to atrocities of one nation, by comparing it to something else

#2 - especially when the issues are so different

#3 - and especially when they were done in different periods in time

back to israel and palestinians; under international law, israel is responsible for pushing out the palestinians out of their homes and land and creating world's largest refugee population.

why are you okay with israel's ethnic cleansing of palestinians?

Edited September 11, 2012 by bud

[Argus]

I dont know of any jew haters here at all... Just people who see anti semitism everywhere they look. In the heart of every child and on the face of every smiling baby.

So there are no anti-Semites then?

[Argus]

far from true, Russia gave up far more than israel or any other nation when it voluntarily dissolved the soviet union...the value of any of the former soviet territories dwarf the value of the west bank and gaza...

A weak government wasn't able to keep the Soviet Union together. Don't make out like it was a magnanimous gesture. If Putin had been in power there would still be a Soviet Union, and anyone who wanted otherwise would be in a mass grave.

[dre]

So there are no anti-Semites then?

What?

[GostHacked]

So there are no anti-Semites then?

Not as many as people would like to think. Calling someone an anti-semite is a conversation killer.

[GostHacked]

A weak government wasn't able to keep the Soviet Union together. Don't make out like it was a magnanimous gesture. If Putin had been in power there would still be a Soviet Union, and anyone who wanted otherwise would be in a mass grave.

No matter who was in power, the USSR could not keep up military spending. Funding for the military quickly went down the tubes.

[Argus]

So is anyone 'feeling the love' coming out of the Ummah these days? Does anyone really think all this is just about some grade z video shot for nine bucks by some Egyptian immigrant? It kind of makes you wonder about the mentality over there that can inspire so many people into murderous rampages at the drop of a hat.

By the way, some Hindu group in Toronto wants to screen the movie. I wonder how many marines we have at OUR embassies in the middle east...

[bud]

It kind of makes you wonder about the mentality over there that can inspire so many people into murderous rampages at the drop of a hat.

what do you think the percentage of the angry protesters as compared to those who don't really care, 'over there'?

did you hear that al-quaeda used this opportunity to enter the compound and kill the americans?

[jbg]

So is anyone 'feeling the love' coming out of the Ummah these days? Does anyone really think all this is just about some grade z video shot for nine bucks by some Egyptian immigrant?

To be fair, it is quite common for mainstream Christians and Jews to riot, kill people and lose control of themselves when they see a film or video they don't like. It would be racist or colonialist to argue otherwise.

what do you think the percentage of the angry protesters as compared to those who don't really care, 'over there'?

did you hear that al-quaeda used this opportunity to enter the compound and kill the americans?

See response to Argus post above. Edited September 16, 2012 by jbg

[bud]

See response to Argus post above.

how about you respond to many posts that you've left unanswered first before i can acknowledge anything else.

[Argus]

what do you think the percentage of the angry protesters as compared to those who don't really care, 'over there'?

I would have no way of knowing. One assumes, however, that, as the saying goes, for every angry caller, there are ten angry people who don't bother to call. I would assume that there were a lot more enraged Muslims who couldn't or didn't have the time to make their way down to where the riot was being held. Nevertheless, the majority of people, however angry they might or might not have been, did not choose to take part in the riots.

But how many of them were also angry, I would not know.

[bud]

I would have no way of knowing. One assumes, however, that, as the saying goes, for every angry caller, there are ten angry people who don't bother to call. I would assume that there were a lot more enraged Muslims who couldn't or didn't have the time to make their way down to where the riot was being held. Nevertheless, the majority of people, however angry they might or might not have been, did not choose to take part in the riots.

But how many of them were also angry, I would not know.

i think this is being blown out of proportion again. i don't have any scientific data behind my opinion, but i do believe that the people we keep seeing on tv are just a small percentage of muslim arabs who would use any excuse to get angry.

the killings of the americans (and the 10 libyans) at the compound, from what is being said were most likely done by al qaeda who used the opportunity to attack.

any of you seeing libyans' response and their coming out in support of the victims? if not, check this out: http://www.facebook.com/TheSorryProject

photos from libya: http://imgur.com/a/tlCyI

what i'm disappointed about is morsi's response to the attack of the embassy in egypt.

[bleeding heart]

what i'm disappointed about is morsi's response to the attack of the embassy in egypt.

Yes, that was absurd. Especially sicne he has been graced, so far, with being painted (and almost universally) as a rational moderate, opposed to violence. (I'm making no judgement about the accuracy of this widespread view, only that it exists.)

[wyly]

Yes, that was absurd. Especially sicne he has been graced, so far, with being painted (and almost universally) as a rational moderate, opposed to violence. (I'm making no judgement about the accuracy of this widespread view, only that it exists.)

you have to appreciate his position though, he's walking a political tightrope every word and action is weighed and measured...often politicians say things that need to be said to keep control of the situation even though they don't believe it themselves...he needs to be moderate yet look to be attentive to extremist views...

[Argus]

you have to appreciate his position though, he's walking a political tightrope every word and action is weighed and measured...often politicians say things that need to be said to keep control of the situation even though they don't believe it themselves...he needs to be moderate yet look to be attentive to extremist views...

Apparently the Egyptians have sworn out warrants for the people involved in that stupid video, including our well-known Florida pastor. This hasn't gotten a lot of attention but the implications are not good. If any of the seven are caught they would face the death penalty. Consider that. a man, even that wack job Florida pastor, says something or does something insulting to the Islamist God, even halfway around the world, and Egypt thinks it has the right to arrest and condemn that person to death? By implication, ever writer in the West is open to punishment if he says anything deemed insulting to Islam, ie Mark Stein, or the editor of Macleans, if the Egyptians can get their hands on him...

Edited September 18, 2012 by Argus