jbg Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 do you have something to show that it is widespread and getting worse or are you telling us how you see things? I'm with you up to the point where you say it's getting worse. Is it? Can you prove that? I'm not arguing that it's not, either. I'm just not sure if it's worse or just better publicized. I haven't said it is getting worse, per se. What I have said is that it hasn't gotten better but with modern weaponry replacing the scimitar the death toll is far worse. i hope the followers of islam are listening to your heartfelt plea to abandon savagery. you are a man of conscience and peace. keep up the good work. I note the sarcasm and indeed snarkiness of your remark. I was making a sincere point, that their violent approach won't end well for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 I was making a sincere point, that their violent approach won't end well for them. and i know you are sincerely bigoted by claiming followers of islam are not part of the modern world and that they contribute to killing and not helping others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 That's just so goddamn deep. Did you really think of that yourself? Penetrating insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 What I have said is that many of the problems Islamophobes attribute to Islam are more related to tribal cultural issues, with the more modern addition of heavy weaponry. I think a religion is neither inherently constructive or destructive; it's character depends on how people use it. The Old Testament is full of alarming pronouncements and yet Jews, over all (and not universally) are constructive people. At one time, though, their societies had their share of internecine violence and aggression against outsiders. I pray for the day when followers of Islam join the modern world and contribute their considerable intelligence to helping rather than killing people. Millions of them are doing just that, but you never talk about that except to scold them for not doing enough to drag their co-religionists into the modern age. The question remains: what is your objective here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I'm with you up to the point where you say it's getting worse. Is it? Can you prove that? I'm not arguing that it's not, either. I'm just not sure if it's worse or just better publicized. Further, I'm not sure jbg would agree that it's getting worse: according to him, it was ever thus, even back before there was such a thing as Islam. I make no claims to being any kind of expert on Islam or the Muslim world. So by neccesity my belief is brought about by my impressions from afar, and reading what those there have to say. For example, I've seen pictures of Beirut, Teiran and Cairo in the nineteen fifties, and there was nary a chador to be seen. Pakistan used to be synonymous with poor, not 'crazy', and the upsurge of violent religious fundamentalism there is fairly well-documented as the effect of Saudi funding to extremist viewpoint madrasas. In fact, you can (and some have) linked the uptick in religious violence throughout the Muslim world to the Saud government's spending billions far and wide to sponsor Wahabi oriented religious schools (these are often not real schools as we know them since all the students learn is rote memorization of certain parts of the Koran, and what their fanatic teachers tell them they mean). There many who think we should have bombed the Saudis rather than anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 i hope the followers of islam are listening to your heartfelt plea to abandon savagery. you are a man of conscience and peace. keep up the good work. Perhaps, Bud, as an expert on the Islamic world, and its peaceful nature, you can rebut something I read once (actually a few times). What I read was that the great intellects in most countries, when they can get to university, study engineering and science, math and computers, medicine and law. Everywhere but in the Islamic world. There, they study Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 As do some posters. Do you have a point? Some commentary to add? Maybe try and articulate why you think Muslims are inherently savage beast people. I think jbg needs to think about how it problematizes his arguments when Muslims are butchering other Muslims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted September 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 I think jbg needs to think about how it problematizes his arguments when Muslims are butchering other Muslims. Not really. It's a cultural problem not a religious one. And I see you've made a grand addition to the English or Canadian language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 It's a cultural problem not a religious one. You've generalized the problem even further from religion to culture then. So take some time to think about how your argument is problematized by people of the same culture butchering each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted September 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 You've generalized the problem even further from religion to culture then. So take some time to think about how your argument is problematized by people of the same culture butchering each other. My point is that there is no cultural aversion to violence over there. Those people enjoy violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 My point is that there is no cultural aversion to violence over there. Those people enjoy violence. What an absolutely appalling thing to say. As Jews get slaughtered by Palestinian rocket fire do you sit back and say that the Jews enjoy violence? You're sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted September 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 What an absolutely appalling thing to say. As Jews get slaughtered by Palestinian rocket fire do you sit back and say that the Jews enjoy violence? You're sick. I have never been known for political correctness. But for thousands of years in the Ummah one tribe has been slaughtering another tribe relentlessly. Do you really think U.N. membership of the countries in which they reside changes anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 I have never been known for political correctness. But for thousands of years in the Ummah one tribe has been slaughtering another tribe relentlessly. Do you really think U.N. membership of the countries in which they reside changes anything? Exactly whom are you referring to when you say "the Ummah?" - specifically. I want to be sure that I understand what you are saying when you say "those people enjoy violence" before commenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 I think jbg needs to think about how it problematizes his arguments when Muslims are butchering other Muslims. Most of it seems to be religious in nature. They might all be Muslims, but they're not the same KIND of Muslims. It does seem that the Islamic world has yet to outgrow its belief in supporting religious beliefs with extreme violence. The Christian world is not entirely immune from this but it largely disappeared during the Renaissance. The Islamic world never had a renaissance, perhaps due to the united belief by its religious leaders that the interpretation of the Koran was final and absolute hundreds of years ago. Any questioning of that interpretation is heresy and liable to bring prison or death. That makes change a little difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 My point is that there is no cultural aversion to violence over there. Those people enjoy violence. I would say that the first sentence seems to be largely true, though it's a generalization. I've seen no evidence of the second. I think that's largely hyperbole and resentment towards people who, let's face it, don't think much of Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Most of it seems to be religious in nature. They might all be Muslims, but they're not the same KIND of Muslims. It does seem that the Islamic world has yet to outgrow its belief in supporting religious beliefs with extreme violence. The Christian world is not entirely immune from this but it largely disappeared during the Renaissance. The Islamic world never had a renaissance, perhaps due to the united belief by its religious leaders that the interpretation of the Koran was final and absolute hundreds of years ago. Any questioning of that interpretation is heresy and liable to bring prison or death. That makes change a little difficult. It's funny because the Renaissance more broadly (as opposed to being a Christian Renaissance per se) was in part due to the contributions of the Muslims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 My point is that there is no cultural aversion to violence over there. Those people enjoy violence. you're a racist and bigoted idiot. have you realized this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 It's funny because the Renaissance more broadly (as opposed to being a Christian Renaissance per se) was in part due to the contributions of the Muslims. That's true, when the Muslims were still a force for progress. Many, though not all of them have become a force for reaction. How people who purport to support female and gay rights can support militant Islam is far beyond me. And as for what I mean by "Ummah" I am referring to land that the Muslims now consider holy, except for liberated Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 That's true, when the Muslims were still a force for progress. Many, though not all of them have become a force for reaction. How people who purport to support female and gay rights can support militant Islam is far beyond me. And as for what I mean by "Ummah" I am referring to land that the Muslims now consider holy, except for liberated Israel. Liberated Israel?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Liberated Israel?? Yes. Israel was liberated on May 15, 1948. Also, regarding the Opening Post, I have regained some admiration for the Ummah (link). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Yes. Israel was liberated on May 15, 1948. israel did not exist before may 15th, 1948 so you have the words created and liberated mixed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 israel did not exist before may 15th, 1948 so you have the words created and liberated mixed up. No. I mean that Israel was at that point liberated territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 No. I mean that Israel was at that point liberated territory. you're not making sense jbg. israel was not liberated. it was created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 No. I mean that Israel was at that point liberated territory. Liberated from what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 you're not making sense jbg. israel was not liberated. it was created. Liberated from what? I get it now. The only time a country is "liberated" is when they're taken over by some totalitarian force that is currently politically popular? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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