USA vs. Europe 9Gun Violence)

[The_Squid]

Again comparing a nation of 300million to nations of less than 80million and claiming it is a legitimate point is idiotic beyond belief.

As much as I don't want to add to this topic from a troll, your answer is silly. Statistical comparisons are perfectly legitimate. Why wouldn't they be?

[socialist]

As much as I don't want to add to this topic from a troll, your answer is silly. Statistical comparisons are perfectly legitimate. Why wouldn't they be?

Exactly. and that is what i provided. signals is wrong and won't admit it.

[socialist]

against my better instincts about getting engaged with you in yet another of your silly buggar plays... within the linked article/graphic, you saw fit to comment on a trend, 'you had seen'; one isolated to Europe, one associated with selected European handgun manufacturers/per selected European countries. This thread is about a comparative measure of U.S. versus Europe. You, apparently, purposely chose not to reference the same linked article/graphic as relates to the U.S. and the same criteria you saw fit to include in the isolated (Europe only) trend, 'you had seen'.

waldo there is no way western europe has more gun violence than the usa is there? i've read lots on this subject and western europeans are much more responsible and safer than americans.

[Guest American Woman]

As much as I don't want to add to this topic from a troll, your answer is silly. Statistical comparisons are perfectly legitimate. Why wouldn't they be?

Because crime doesn't necessarily rise in the same proportion as population. There are other factors involved; or do you think a small town is comparable to a large city in every way except for the difference in population? If that were true, it should be just as easy, and not any more dangerous, to police a large city as a small city, right? Yet crime rates don't all rise according to the difference in population. It's not that neat and simple.

[dre]

Whether or not gun laws have an impact on the rates of firearm related homicides depends very much on what those controls are, and how many guns are around to start with. Obviously the idea is to keep them out of the hands of criminals, but most guns are sold legally to citizens first and enter the black market later. So general gun ownership laws CAN have an effect on the availability of guns for criminals. In the US however where theres already 1/4 of a billion guns out there Im not too sure how much difference it would make. Programs to recover existing guns would probably be more effective than laws that limit new aquisitions.

Anonymous buyback programs might help more that restrictions on sales and legal ownership. Keep in mind that seemingly unrelated policies have a huge impact on gun homicides as well... the moronic war on drugs and prostitution for example and the bright idea of only allowing criminals to cash in on the supply side of a gigantic lucritive industry.

Either way its not as simple as "more gun control = less murder".

[waldo]

in keeping with the OP intent/theme, are you able to extend upon your isolated (Europe only) trend to provide a comparative measure of handguns manufactured in the U.S. to align with your same linked U.S. murder rate statistic? Feel free to offer comment on applicable concealed permit law(s).

I’m using socialist’s provided link……..As to the rest of your post, I’ve no idea what you’re asking……Care to dumb it down?

against my better instincts about getting engaged with you in yet another of your silly buggar plays... within the linked article/graphic, you saw fit to comment on a trend, 'you had seen'; one isolated to Europe, one associated with selected European handgun manufacturers/per selected European countries. This thread is about a comparative measure of U.S. versus Europe. You, apparently, purposely chose not to reference the same linked article/graphic as relates to the U.S. and the same criteria you saw fit to include in the isolated (Europe only) trend, 'you had seen'.

I know context is not your strong suite, but go reread my first post in this thread, as it’s a response and confirmation to Signals Cpl’s point about the irrelevance relating to gun control and private, legal ownership.

clearly... the context you're avoiding is the comparative one relative to the graphic you linked to - this one. Aren't you able/willing to also beguile us with your gun wizardry as relates to U.S. handgun manufacturers? C'mon... you quoted murder rates from 4 countries in Europe that you selected... and then you proceeded to identify a handgun manufacturer from each of the European countries you selected. Since you're all about context, right?... surely, in the interests of OP thread context, comparing the U.S. to Europe, you'll step-up and showcase your like gun wizardry to equally highlight your linked graphics U.S. murder rate with U.S. handgun manufacturers. And then, in your context focus, you'll make/draw a comparison between the murder rates you've highlighted - between the U.S. and the 4 European countries you selected... right? You'll do that, right? Context is everything to you, right?

[bleeding heart]

Either way its not as simple as "more gun control = less murder".

No, I'm sure you're right.

[TheNewTeddy]

There are places with loose gun laws - big or small - that do not have as many shooting murders as in the United States.

Why?

I don't know why. That's what I'd like to find out.

[Guest Derek L]

Contend all you want, but you have certainly implied something that you have no willingness to prove.

Not surprising to me at all.

Implied what? That gun laws and levels of private ownership within a nation play little into violent crime rates?

[Guest Derek L]

[/size]

clearly... the context you're avoiding is the comparative one relative to the graphic you linked to - this one. Aren't you able/willing to also beguile us with your gun wizardry as relates to U.S. handgun manufacturers? C'mon... you quoted murder rates from 4 countries in Europe that you selected... and then you proceeded to identify a handgun manufacturer from each of the European countries you selected. Since you're all about context, right?... surely, in the interests of OP thread context, comparing the U.S. to Europe, you'll step-up and showcase your like gun wizardry to equally highlight your linked graphics U.S. murder rate with U.S. handgun manufacturers. And then, in your context focus, you'll make/draw a comparison between the murder rates you've highlighted - between the U.S. and the 4 European countries you selected... right? You'll do that, right? Context is everything to you, right?

American (Hand)gun makers:

Ruger

S&W

Colt

Springfield

Kimber

Remington

Browning (half Belgian with FN)

And their murder rate: 5.0 per 100k

As to murder rate, manufactures and gun laws, as per my “contention”, there is no correlation, as demonstrated in this thread (and the others) by simply looking at a country like Mexico, with a murder rate nearly four times that of the United States, next to nothing in terms of a domestic small arms manufacturing industry and private gun ownership laws many magnitudes greater then the US and even stricter in terms of regulations then Canada and most of the above mentioned European nations……….

[Guest Derek L]

Whether or not gun laws have an impact on the rates of firearm related homicides depends very much on what those controls are, and how many guns are around to start with. Obviously the idea is to keep them out of the hands of criminals, but most guns are sold legally to citizens first and enter the black market later. So general gun ownership laws CAN have an effect on the availability of guns for criminals. In the US however where theres already 1/4 of a billion guns out there Im not too sure how much difference it would make. Programs to recover existing guns would probably be more effective than laws that limit new aquisitions.

Anonymous buyback programs might help more that restrictions on sales and legal ownership. Keep in mind that seemingly unrelated policies have a huge impact on gun homicides as well... the moronic war on drugs and prostitution for example and the bright idea of only allowing criminals to cash in on the supply side of a gigantic lucritive industry.

Either way its not as simple as "more gun control = less murder".

Statistically the gun “buy-back programs” do help to some degree as demonstrated by the program in place in Oakland……It is possible though, one could argue, that a drop in gun crime in Oakland was a direct result of increased economic opportunity …..Still wouldn’t want to visit the place mind you.

[waldo]

American (Hand)gun makers:

Ruger

S&W

Colt

Springfield

Kimber

Remington

Browning (half Belgian with FN)

And their murder rate: 5.0 per 100k (emphasis added by the waldo)

As to murder rate, manufactures and gun laws, as per my “contention”, there is no correlation, as demonstrated in this thread (and the others) by simply looking at a country like Mexico, with a murder rate nearly four times that of the United States, next to nothing in terms of a domestic small arms manufacturing industry and private gun ownership laws many magnitudes greater then the US and even stricter in terms of regulations then Canada and most of the above mentioned European nations……….

oh... that was your "contention"... just conveniently unmentioned, hey? Thanks for finally adding in the real comparative measure and tying this back into the OP... but, uhhh..... we're still missing closure here. You still haven't provided the direct comparison in the same post, and commented directly on the most significant disparity between the U.S. murder rate and the (4) European countries you thought to isolate/select upon. There's quite a difference, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

oh... that was your "contention"... just conveniently unmentioned, hey? Thanks for finally adding in the real comparative measure and tying this back into the OP... but, uhhh..... we're still missing closure here. You still haven't provided the direct comparison in the same post, and commented directly on the most significant disparity between the U.S. murder rate and the (4) European countries you thought to isolate/select upon. There's quite a difference, hey?

I’ll do that, once you do likewise between the United States and Mexico.

[waldo]

I’ll do that, once you do likewise between the United States and Mexico.

what? Another MLW member, 'Derek L' distraction... something about... Mexico... in a thread intended to compare U.S. and Europe gun violence?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3GnWTy8Ebg

by the by, just say no... to the Mexican war on gun violence (sumthin bout... cartels, drugs, smuggling/distribution) - of course, you'd favour that reference comparison, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

what? Another MLW member, 'Derek L' distraction... something about... Mexico... in a thread intended to compare U.S. and Europe gun violence?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3GnWTy8Ebg

by the by, just say no... to the Mexican war on gun violence (sumthin bout... cartels, drugs, smuggling/distribution) - of course, you'd favour that reference comparison, hey?

Clearly the social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime, beset upon Europe, Canada, the United States and Mexico are different……………..To refocus back onto Europe, why would the murder rates of both France and the United Kingdom be similar, yet the UK has a near probation on most private firearms and France does not…………Or back to my above, often asked, but yet to be answered question, why does Mexico have a murder rate near four times that of the United States, yet Mexico has more regulations in place then Canada in terms of private ownership?

You mention drug cartels offhand, well not committing mind you…………Are you suggesting Drug Cartels don’t follow Mexican gun laws? I thought gun control prevented gun crimes? What about access to firearms? Are said Mexican drug cartels obtaining their firearms, non military calibre of course, from the sole gun store in Mexico?

[waldo]

Clearly the social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime, beset upon Europe, Canada, the United States and Mexico are different…………….

again, the thread is, "USA vs. Europe - Gun Violence"... the extent of your "delineation" has been to isolate/select upon 4 European countries (you chose), distract around a particular handgun manufacturer within each of your selected European countries, emphasize the respective European murder rates, ignore the U.S. murder rate, finally when prodded multiple times include reference to the U.S. murder rate, fail to compare Europe vs. U.S. murder rates and... distract to include Mexico... and then have the temerity to speak to context!

in your latest context revision, is it your desire/intent to make something of your stated differing, "social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime"... in a thread concerning a comparison of the U.S. versus Europe? Again, U.S. versus Europe, right?

[Guest Derek L]

again, the thread is, "USA vs. Europe - Gun Violence"... the extent of your "delineation" has been to isolate/select upon 4 European countries (you chose), distract around a particular handgun manufacturer within each of your selected European countries, emphasize the respective European murder rates, ignore the U.S. murder rate, finally when prodded multiple times include reference to the U.S. murder rate, fail to compare Europe vs. U.S. murder rates and... distract to include Mexico... and then have the temerity to speak to context!

in your latest context revision, is it your desire/intent to make something of your stated differing, "social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime"... in a thread concerning a comparison of the U.S. versus Europe? Again, U.S. versus Europe, right?

Nice deflection............So what of France and the UK? They’re both in Europe……….

Per the OP:

I know there are a couple of people here who think Europe with it's strict gun control laws is just as violent and has as many random shootings as gun loving USA. The usa is the most violent country in the western world. europe is much safer compared to the gun lawless usa. where do you stand?

Demonstrate how “strict gun laws” make Europe safer………..Clearly, a near total ban on private ownership in the UK will make them markedly safer then France, with it’s considerably less intrusive laws right?

How would gun laws make the United States safer?

[waldo]

again, the thread is, "USA vs. Europe - Gun Violence"... the extent of your "delineation" has been to isolate/select upon 4 European countries (you chose), distract around a particular handgun manufacturer within each of your selected European countries, emphasize the respective European murder rates, ignore the U.S. murder rate, finally when prodded multiple times include reference to the U.S. murder rate, fail to compare Europe vs. U.S. murder rates and... distract to include Mexico... and then have the temerity to speak to context!

in your latest context revision, is it your desire/intent to make something of your stated differing, "social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime"... in a thread concerning a comparison of the U.S. versus Europe? Again, U.S. versus Europe, right?

Nice deflection............So what of France and the UK? They’re both in Europe……….

deflection? Nope, sorry - no deflection, none whatsoever! What is the point you'd like to make concerning France & the UK versus the U.S.?

the United Kingdom's murder rate of:

GB United Kingdom 724

1.2

2009 Eurostat

and France:

FR France 839

1.4

2008 Eurostat

American ...murder rate:

5.0

[Guest Derek L]

deflection? Nope, sorry - no deflection, none whatsoever! What is the point you'd like to make concerning France & the UK versus the U.S.?

How strict gun control laws would make people safer……..The question you refuse to answer.

[waldo]

How strict gun control laws would make people safer……..The question you refuse to answer.

asked... and answered. Apparently, you favour quibbling over a 0.2 rate difference between the UK and France... while totally ignoring the more, much more, comparative difference with the 5.0 U.S. murder rate. Go figure, hey?

the United Kingdom's murder rate of:

GB United Kingdom 724

1.2

2009 Eurostat

and France:

FR France 839

1.4

2008 Eurostat

American ...murder rate:

5.0

[Guest Derek L]

asked... and answered. Apparently, you favour quibbling over a 0.2 rate difference between the UK and France... while totally ignoring the more, much more, comparative difference with the 5.0 U.S. murder rate. Go figure, hey?

Where did you answer it? I asked why there is little difference between two European nations, one with a prohibition on handguns and semi-auto centerfire long guns and the other nation without such bans.

How is this evidence that gun control works in Europe?

[waldo]

How is this evidence that gun control works in Europe?

if you're having trouble with your own linked data/graphic, perhaps you should use a bit more due diligence before spouting off over murder rates and gun violence. You appear to really want to say something about France but just can't quite articulate it - let the waldo help you!

=> France civilian gun ownership @ 19 million guns /// U.S. civilian gun ownership @ 270 million guns

=> France 2009 gun deaths <2000 /// U.S. 2009 gun deaths ~10,000

=> per your linked data/graphic, France 2009 murder rate @ 1.4/100K population /// U.S. 2009 murder rate @ 5.0/100K population

[Guest Derek L]

if you're having trouble with your own linked data/graphic, perhaps you should use a bit more due diligence before spouting off over murder rates and gun violence. You appear to really want to say something about France but just can't quite articulate it - let the waldo help you!

=> France civilian gun ownership @ 19 million guns /// U.S. civilian gun ownership @ 270 million guns

=> France 2009 gun deaths <2000 /// U.S. 2009 gun deaths ~10,000

=> per your linked data/graphic, France 2009 murder rate @ 1.4/100K population /// U.S. 2009 murder rate @ 5.0/100K population

No, I'm comparing France the UK, in that per the OP, strict "European gun laws work".....Your avoidance is telling

[waldo]

No, I'm comparing France the UK, in that per the OP, strict "European gun laws work".....Your avoidance is telling

as in most threads you suffer greatly from an inability to stay focused on the thread intent - clearly, distraction/diversion/deflection is your principal forte. Again, this is a thread intended to discuss, "USA vs. Europe - Gun Violence". I suggest that if you have a strong continuing desire to address a comparative review/ranking of particular European countries, in isolation from the U.S., perhaps you should start a thread in kind.

[waldo]

Clearly the social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime, beset upon Europe, Canada, the United States and Mexico are different…………….

in your latest context revision, is it your desire/intent to make something of your stated differing, "social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime"... in a thread concerning a comparison of the U.S. versus Europe? Again, U.S. versus Europe, right?

uhhh... have you decided not to expand further upon your stated differing "social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime"... in this thread concerning a comparison of U.S. versus Europe?