USA vs. Europe 9Gun Violence)

[socialist]

I know there are a couple of people here who think Europe with it's strict gun control laws is just as violent and has as many random shootings as gun loving USA. The usa is the most violent country in the western world. europe is much safer compared to the gun lawless usa. where do you stand?

[Signals.Cpl]

I know there are a couple of people here who think Europe with it's strict gun control laws is just as violent and has as many random shootings as gun loving USA. The usa is the most violent country in the western world. europe is much safer compared to the gun lawless usa. where do you stand?

Prove...It...

[socialist]

Prove...It...

Sure.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

[Signals.Cpl]

Sure.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

Again comparing a nation of 300million to nations of less than 80million and claiming it is a legitimate point is idiotic beyond belief.

[socialist]

Again comparing a nation of 300million to nations of less than 80million and claiming it is a legitimate point is idiotic beyond belief.

Simple. Germany, per capita, has a lower murder rate than the USA.

[Signals.Cpl]

Simple. Germany, per capita, has a lower murder rate than the USA.

1) Prove it.

2) Prove the reasons behind this.

[socialist]

1) Prove it.

2) Prove the reasons behind this.

There you go. Choke on these stats pal. 2009 Stats

Per 100,000 people:

Germany 0.8

Sweden 1.0

Spain 0.9

Slovakia 1.5

Slovenia 0.6

United States 5.0

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc

Edited August 8, 2012 by socialist

[Signals.Cpl]

There you go. Choke on these stats pal. 2009 Stats

Per 100,000 people:

Germany 0.8

Sweden 1.0

Spain 0.9

Slovakia 1.5

Slovenia 0.6

United States 5.0

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc

Care to prove how the gun laws fit in to this? And what effect it would have on the US should the government disarm the legal gun owners leaving the criminals and police as the only once armed? Care to provide facts to support that the crime rate in Europe is lower because of gun control? And no the voices in your head are not proof.

[Michael Hardner]

It strikes me that socialist should really be thanking signals.cpl for this free debunking of faulty arguments, which improve somewhat with each post. This is free education he's getting here.

[Guest Derek L]

Care to prove how the gun laws fit in to this? And what effect it would have on the US should the government disarm the legal gun owners leaving the criminals and police as the only once armed? Care to provide facts to support that the crime rate in Europe is lower because of gun control? And no the voices in your head are not proof.

Or explain the United Kingdom's murder rate of:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc

GB United Kingdom 724 1.2 2009 Eurostat

and France:

FR France 839 1.4 2008 Eurostat

Both very similar murder rates, yet private ownership of most firearms in the UK are prohibited, yet the French have similar laws as us:

CA Canada 610 1.8 2009 NSO

But let’s get back to Europe, and the Italians (I love Italian guns) and their rate of:

IT Italy 590 1 2009 UN-CTS

But the Italians, like the Americans, allow concealed carry permits……….

So if European gun laws, like those of Italy prevent violence, as demonstrated by the above various murder rates, surely I should be allowed to carry my Beretta 92, 9x19 Parabellum for self protection..........Parabellum is Latin (old Italian) for:

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Or in "Canadian":

"If you wish for peace, prepare for war"

[msj]

I like the graphs found here: Viewing Mass Murder As a Public Health Problem: Why Are We Shocked and Surprised?

"American Exceptionalism at its finest."

----

I agree with Michael Hardner on this.

[Guest Derek L]

I see a trend:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc

Germany's murder rate per 100k: 0.8

Swiss murder rate per 100k: 0.7

The Czech Republic: 0.9

And Austria's: 0.5

Now why these four countries, coupled with Italy?

Simple, they make the following:

Germany = Heckler & Koch

Swiss = Sig Sauer

Czech Republic= CZ

Austria: Glock

And like Italy, a private citizen can get a concealed permit in all four countries for self defence…..

[waldo]

I like the graphs found here: Viewing Mass Murder As a Public Health Problem: Why Are We Shocked and Surprised?

"American Exceptionalism at its finest."

Indeed.......

[waldo]

I see a trend:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc

in keeping with the OP intent/theme, are you able to extend upon your isolated (Europe only) trend to provide a comparative measure of handguns manufactured in the U.S. to align with your same linked U.S. murder rate statistic? Feel free to offer comment on applicable concealed permit law(s).

[msj]

Now why these four countries, coupled with Italy?

Simple, they make the following:

Germany = Heckler & Koch

Swiss = Sig Sauer

Czech Republic= CZ

Austria: Glock

And like Italy, a private citizen can get a concealed permit in all four countries for self defence…..

Hmmmm, perhaps you can prove to us that the gun laws in each country are as easy as in the US?

A quick google search I did on Germany seems to point to few Germans owning guns and it being very rare for people to get a concealed permit.

Edited August 8, 2012 by msj

[Guest Derek L]

Cross quoting?

[Guest Derek L]

Hmmmm, perhaps you can prove to us that the gun laws in each country are as easy as in the US?

A quick google search I did on Germany seems to point to few Germans owning guns and it being very rare for people to get a concealed permit.

From one of the gun threads:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-around-the-world-graphic/

As you can see, the rate of gun ownership in Canada, Germany and Austria is similar……per 100 citizens……….With the Swiss significantly higher.....

Define “rare”………..Contrasted with Canada where the possibility is next to non existent.

[Guest Derek L]

in keeping with the OP intent/theme, are you able to extend upon your isolated (Europe only) trend to provide a comparative measure of handguns manufactured in the U.S. to align with your same linked U.S. murder rate statistic? Feel free to offer comment on applicable concealed permit law(s).

I’m using socialist’s provided link……..As to the rest of your post, I’ve no idea what you’re asking……Care to dumb it down?

[msj]

From one of the gun threads:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-around-the-world-graphic/

As you can see, the rate of gun ownership in Canada, Germany and Austria is similar……per 100 citizens……….With the Swiss significantly higher.....

That graphic doesn't even come close to answering my questions.

No worries, I wasn't expecting anything but a disingenuous reply from you anyway....

[Guest Derek L]

That graphic doesn't even come close to answering my questions.

No worries, I wasn't expecting anything but a disingenuous reply from you anyway....

You asked:

A quick google search I did on Germany seems to point to few Germans owning guns and it being very rare for people to get a concealed permit.

As demonstrated in the link, the ratio of private guns to citizens is similar to us……….As to concealed carry, you suggested it rare………..In Canada it’s near non existent……….As such, if the Provincial CFO’s issued ATC’s, at the same rate as the previous mentioned European countries, there’s no evidence our murder rate would increase to a level comparable to that of the United States.

[msj]

You asked:

A quick google search I did on Germany seems to point to few Germans owning guns and it being very rare for people to get a concealed permit.

As demonstrated in the link, the ratio of private guns to citizens is similar to us……….As to concealed carry, you suggested it rare………..In Canada it’s near non existent……….As such, if the Provincial CFO’s issued ATC’s, at the same rate as the previous mentioned European countries, there’s no evidence our murder rate would increase to a level comparable to that of the United States.

Ah yes, all the while ignoring my actual question which was: perhaps you can prove to us that the gun laws in each country are as easy as in the US?

You know, the sentence with the "?" on the end.

[waldo]

in keeping with the OP intent/theme, are you able to extend upon your isolated (Europe only) trend to provide a comparative measure of handguns manufactured in the U.S. to align with your same linked U.S. murder rate statistic? Feel free to offer comment on applicable concealed permit law(s).

I’m using socialist’s provided link……..As to the rest of your post, I’ve no idea what you’re asking……Care to dumb it down?

against my better instincts about getting engaged with you in yet another of your silly buggar plays... within the linked article/graphic, you saw fit to comment on a trend, 'you had seen'; one isolated to Europe, one associated with selected European handgun manufacturers/per selected European countries. This thread is about a comparative measure of U.S. versus Europe. You, apparently, purposely chose not to reference the same linked article/graphic as relates to the U.S. and the same criteria you saw fit to include in the isolated (Europe only) trend, 'you had seen'.

[Guest Derek L]

As demonstrated in the link, the ratio of private guns to citizens is similar to us……….As to concealed carry, you suggested it rare………..In Canada it’s near non existent……….As such, if the Provincial CFO’s issued ATC’s, at the same rate as the previous mentioned European countries, there’s no evidence our murder rate would increase to a level comparable to that of the United States.

Ah yes, all the while ignoring my actual question which was: perhaps you can prove to us that the gun laws in each country are as easy as in the US?

You know, the sentence with the "?" on the end.

That’s not my assertion, in that all previous countries mentioned by myself (aside from the United States) have similar homicide rates, similar standards of living but vastly differing gun laws, some less restrictive then Canada’s (Allowing CCW permits) and some near a total ban (UK)………My contention, in this thread and others, is that private gun ownership and gun control measures make no difference on homicide rates within a country………….If this wasn’t the case, surely the homicides rates of Canada (and the above mentioned European nations) would mirror those of jurisdictions like Mexico, with stricter gun control measures. (Calibre/Action/Amount etc)

Clearly, legal, private gun ownership is not a contributing factor to violent crime.

[Guest Derek L]

against my better instincts about getting engaged with you in yet another of your silly buggar plays... within the linked article/graphic, you saw fit to comment on a trend, 'you had seen'; one isolated to Europe, one associated with selected European handgun manufacturers/per selected European countries. This thread is about a comparative measure of U.S. versus Europe. You, apparently, purposely chose not to reference the same linked article/graphic as relates to the U.S. and the same criteria you saw fit to include in the isolated (Europe only) trend, 'you had seen'.

I know context is not your strong suite, but go reread my first post in this thread, as it’s a response and confirmation to Signals Cpl’s point about the irrelevance relating to gun control and private, legal ownership.

[msj]

That’s not my assertion, in that all previous countries mentioned by myself (aside from the United States) have similar homicide rates, similar standards of living but vastly differing gun laws, some less restrictive then Canada’s (Allowing CCW permits) and some near a total ban (UK)………My contention, in this thread and others, is that private gun ownership and gun control measures make no difference on homicide rates within a country………….If this wasn’t the case, surely the homicides rates of Canada (and the above mentioned European nations) would mirror those of jurisdictions like Mexico, with stricter gun control measures. (Calibre/Action/Amount etc)

Clearly, legal, private gun ownership is not a contributing factor to violent crime.

Contend all you want, but you have certainly implied something that you have no willingness to prove.

Not surprising to me at all.

Edited August 8, 2012 by msj