USA vs. Europe 9Gun Violence)

[Guest Derek L]

as in most threads you suffer greatly from an inability to stay focused on the thread intent - clearly, distraction/diversion/deflection is your principal forte. Again, this is a thread intended to discuss, "USA vs. Europe - Gun Violence". I suggest that if you have a strong continuing desire to address a comparative review/ranking of particular European countries, in isolation from the U.S., perhaps you should start a thread in kind.

Per the OP:

I know there are a couple of people here who think Europe with it's strict gun control laws is just as violent and has as many random shootings as gun loving USA. The usa is the most violent country in the western world. europe is much safer compared to the gun lawless usa. where do you stand?

Prove that Europe is safer because of it’s gun laws......You’ve already suggested alluded to Mexican gun laws, when contrasted with the United States, failing due to “drug cartels”……………So why no stark difference in murder rate between France and the UK with their divergent gun laws?

The intent of the OP was to suggest Europe was safer than the United States due to gun laws…….prove it.

[Guest Derek L]

uhhh... have you decided not to expand further upon your stated differing "social conditions that foster crime, including gun crime"... in this thread concerning a comparison of U.S. versus Europe?

You care to expand on how "European gun laws" make Europe safer?

[waldo]

The intent of the OP was to suggest Europe was safer than the United States due to gun laws…….prove it.

the United Kingdom's murder rate of:

GB United Kingdom 724

1.2

2009 Eurostat

and France:

FR France 839

1.4

2008 Eurostat

American ...murder rate:

5.0

You appear to really want to say something about France but just can't quite articulate it - let the waldo help you!

=> France civilian gun ownership @ 19 million guns /// U.S. civilian gun ownership @ 270 million guns

=> France 2009 gun deaths <2000 /// U.S. 2009 gun deaths ~10,000

=> per your linked data/graphic, France 2009 murder rate @ 1.4/100K population /// U.S. 2009 murder rate @ 5.0/100K population

[Guest Derek L]

Another no I take it in providing proof as to how European gun laws prevent crime.....

How about a different tract since you can‘t seem to answer a simple question………What percent of private American and French guns are used to commit a crime?

Using your numbers:

~270 million private American guns and 10k American deaths

----- versus------

~19 million French guns and 2000 French gun deaths

So who’s guns are doing, by a percentage, more killing? You can rest assured, if you don’t do the math, I’ll do it in my retort for you

One more time for shit’s and giggles, how are European gun laws making Europe safer?

[waldo]

Using your numbers:

~270 million private American guns and 10k American deaths

----- versus------

~19 million French guns and 2000 French gun deaths

So who’s guns are doing, by a percentage, more killing? You can rest assured, if you don’t do the math, I’ll do it in my retort for you

Mr. Wizard... let's see your math prowess

[waldo]

from the U.S. CDC National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, (2008 (deaths) and 2009 (injuries)):

- ~32,000 persons in the U.S. died from gun violence / ~67,000 persons in the U.S. survived gun injuries

- on average, per day in the U.S.:

- 270 people are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents, and police intervention

- 87 people die from gun violence, 33 of them murdered

- 183 people are shot, but survive their gun injuries

[Guest Derek L]

from the U.S. CDC National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, (2008 (deaths) and 2009 (injuries)):

- ~32,000 persons in the U.S. died from gun violence / ~67,000 persons in the U.S. survived gun injuries

- on average, per day in the U.S.:

- 270 people are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents, and police intervention

- 87 people die from gun violence, 33 of them murdered

- 183 people are shot, but survive their gun injuries

So your above quoted numbers are incorrect?

[waldo]

So your above quoted numbers are incorrect?

no - not at all... I simply deferred to your earlier whining about including suicide gun deaths. You know... where you made yet another of your thundering blunders where you tried to falsely claim suicides accounted for an overall 83% of all U.S. gun deaths!

Proves that you can't read:

83% of

gun deaths

within the U.S. home

are suicides.

50% of

suicides

overall

are done with guns.

proves your reading comprehension is flawed... I've corrected your distracting nonsense above - red bold highlighted, italicized and underlined. Oh, wait now - perhaps you're claiming those 35,000 U.S. gun deaths a year all occur in U.S. homes!

now, c'mon... about that 'suicide by gun' efficiency rating you're just waiting to trot out!

I note you still haven't played your 'suicide by gun' efficiency card! Oh, and, uhhh... still waiting on your math prowess!

[Guest Derek L]

no - not at all... I simply deferred to your earlier whining about including suicide gun deaths. You know... where you made yet another of your thundering blunders where you tried to falsely claim suicides accounted for an overall 83% of all U.S. gun deaths!

I note you still haven't played your 'suicide by gun' efficiency card! Oh, and, uhhh... still waiting on your math prowess!

So just several posts above, to support a failed assertion, you complied data to help support your claim that gun laws make European’s safer:

=> France civilian gun ownership @ 19 million guns /// U.S. civilian gun ownership @ 270 million guns

=> France 2009 gun deaths <2000 /// U.S. 2009 gun deaths ~10,000

=> per your linked data/graphic, France 2009 murder rate @ 1.4/100K population /// U.S. 2009 murder rate @ 5.0/100K population

Now these “numbers” certainly don’t demonstrate how European gun laws make European’s safer, but when faced with a “math problem” that would tear your failed assertion apart even further in relation to homicides, from your above quoted post, you now include suicides and accidental deaths……

Once you’ve decided on what data to include in your formula, used to demonstrate how European Guns protect people, let me know……….It’s quicker then going back in forth with your wiggling gyrations that are defined with the same level of ease associated with nailing Jello to the wall……………..Take your time now eh……….I’ll be back later this evening, for now, I’m off to go shoot lots of guns………And based on precedent, it doubtful anyone will be injured or killed.

[waldo]

the data presented to you... across both threads... is consistent, whether one includes... or excludes... gun deaths by suicide. Still waiting on your math prowess! As for your math problem, you have a self-serving blockage where you refuse to associate murder rate with a proliferation of guns in a society; i.e., the U.S. gun society/culture. Magically, you can't make that easy correlation between a safer society, murder rate and gun proliferation. Apparently, in your skewed 'Derek L' world, U.S. gun deaths would be dramatically lower if only more... more guns, more ammo, higher calibers, full-on assault categories, were made available to U.S. citizens! By the by, have you ready at hand NRA propaganda to show that guns make for a safer society? Sure you do...

I’ll be back later this evening, for now, I’m off to go shoot lots of guns………And based on precedent, it doubtful anyone will be injured or killed.

going to git yer gun on, hey? Injured? Why, based on how you've gushed over moving your young-ins along the path to gun glory, I believe that injury is well in hand - the family that shoots together, stays together, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

the data presented to you... across both threads... is consistent, whether one includes... or excludes... gun deaths by suicide. Still waiting on your math prowess! As for your math problem, you have a self-serving blockage where you refuse to associate murder rate with a proliferation of guns in a society; i.e., the U.S. gun society/culture. Magically, you can't make that easy correlation between a safer society, murder rate and gun proliferation. Apparently, in your skewed 'Derek L' world, U.S. gun deaths would be dramatically lower if only more... more guns, more ammo, higher calibers, full-on assault categories, were made available to U.S. citizens! By the by, have you ready at hand NRA propaganda to show that guns make for a safer society? Sure you do...

Once you’ve decided on what data to include in your formula, used to demonstrate how European Guns protect people, let me know

going to git yer gun on, hey? Injured? Why, based on how you've gushed over moving your young-ins along the path to gun glory, I believe that injury is well in hand - the family that shoots together, stays together, hey?

Oh, that's right, I forgot, objects made of steel, wood and polymer scare you………….

As to family activity, do I sense a hint of jealously Waldo? Mom & Dad didn’t pay enough attention to you growing up?

[bud]

are cpl and derek brothers?

[Guest Derek L]

are cpl and derek brothers?

Nope.

[TheNewTeddy]

Perhaps Americans just can't handle their guns responsibly.

FTR I oppose gun control. I think the only fair way is to equalize everyone's access to a gun. Either nobody has them or everybody has them. Considering criminals find ways to get guns even under the strictest gun control regimes, I therefore support literally giving everyone a free gun.

That idea works. Works, that is, if people are responsible with their weapons. Americans have proven they can not be responsible with their weapons.

[Guest American Woman]

Perhaps Americans just can't handle their guns responsibly.

FTR I oppose gun control. I think the only fair way is to equalize everyone's access to a gun. Either nobody has them or everybody has them. Considering criminals find ways to get guns even under the strictest gun control regimes, I therefore support literally giving everyone a free gun.

That idea works. Works, that is, if people are responsible with their weapons. Americans have proven they can not be responsible with their weapons.

Yeah, that's what "Americans" have proven.

:rolleyes:

[Moonlight Graham]

Perhaps Americans just can't handle their guns responsibly.

FTR I oppose gun control. I think the only fair way is to equalize everyone's access to a gun. Either nobody has them or everybody has them. Considering criminals find ways to get guns even under the strictest gun control regimes, I therefore support literally giving everyone a free gun.

That idea works. Works, that is, if people are responsible with their weapons. Americans have proven they can not be responsible with their weapons.

Perhaps giving everyone, or most people, or even a lot of people, guns is a horrible idea. Perhaps having 88 guns per 100 Americans is a recipe for disaster, where accidents, fatal criminal vs crime victim target (when one or both have guns) confrontations, fatal road rage encounters, fatal domestic disputes etc. are virtually assured to occur in high numbers.

Many people aren't responsible with guns. A significant portion of the human population, regardless of nationality, are stupid. Humans are also fallible beings, and accidents happen. People + guns = people getting shot by guns.

[Guest American Woman]

Perhaps giving everyone, or most people, or even a lot of people, guns is a horrible idea.

That it's a "horrible idea" is a matter of opinion. But do you realize that more than half of Americans don't own a gun? - or live in a household with a gun?

In 1977, 54 percent of American adults lived in a household that contained a gun. By 2010, that figure had declined a full 22 percentage points to 32 percent.

link

Just because the majority of Americans support the right to bear arms doesn't mean that the majority of Americans own guns. This idea that many Canadians have - and the media seems to be reinforcing - of gun happy Americans pulling out guns whenever they encounter conflict seems to be based more on a 'need to believe' than actual reality.

But again, the knowledge that a someone may have a gun does help keep robberies/burglaries down in the U.S. compared to other nations, including Canada, England, and Australia.

[TheNewTeddy]

Yeah, that's what "Americans" have proven.

:rolleyes:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1241363--shooting-breaks-out-near-texas-a-m-university-casualties-reported

[TheNewTeddy]

A significant portion of the human population, regardless of nationality, are stupid.

I'd support a law that says stupid people are not allowed to carry weapons.

[Guest American Woman]

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1241363--shooting-breaks-out-near-texas-a-m-university-casualties-reported

Yes, and "Americans" were out shooting it up university campuses today. Because that one guy and "Americans" are synonymous. Just like the guy who had the shoot out at the Eaton Centre is synonymous with "Canadians."

again.

[TheNewTeddy]

He was American, like it or not. I never said all Americans. I said Americans. If you give an American a gun, there is a higher chance that he'll use it to shoot someone than if you give an European a gun. That does not mean that no Europeans shoot people or that all Americans do. It's simple statistics.

I'm sorry if that offends you. I don't know if you have a gun but if you do, you are likely a responsible gun owner. If so, do not get mad at me, get mad at the irresponsible gun owners that are giving you a bad name.

Like it or not, you end up tainted by their crimes, just as I, as someone from Toronto, am tainted by the stupid idiocy that happens around here.

[Guest American Woman]

He was American, like it or not. I never said all Americans. I said Americans. If you give an American a gun, there is a higher chance that he'll use it to shoot someone than if you give an European a gun. That does not mean that no Europeans shoot people or that all Americans do. It's simple statistics.

When one speaks of "Americans," one generally assumes they are speaking of Americans as a population. If you are speaking of a very specific, small group of Americans who have committed such acts of violence, you might best refer to them that way.

As for this claim, you have absolutely nothing to back it up. There are no statistics to back up your claim. It's a ludicrous claim.

I'm sorry if that offends you.

What offends me is your claim that "Americans have proven that they cannot be responsible with their weapons." The vast majority of Americans have proven that they are responsible with their weapons. It was not only an offensive claim, it's totally untrue.

I don't know if you have a gun but if you do, you are likely a responsible gun owner. If so, do not get mad at me, get mad at the irresponsible gun owners that are giving you a bad name.

I don't own a gun and never will. I've never had the desire to so much as hold a gun or shoot a gun. My pointing out that you made a totally false claim has nothing to do with me personally. It's ignorant claims such as yours that perpetuate ignorance.

Like it or not, you end up tainted by their crimes, just as I, as someone from Toronto, am tainted by the stupid idiocy that happens around here.

Not to me. But then, I don't normally lump the whole in with the very, very few who are responsible for acts of violence.

Edited August 13, 2012 by American Woman

[TheNewTeddy]

Meh, this is how I see things when I look at it, but in all honesty, I don't care about the topic enough to dig though stats.

(which I suppose translates into "I'll shut up rather than put up")

[Guest American Woman]

Meh, this is how I see things when I look at it, but in all honesty, I don't care about the topic enough to dig though stats.

(which I suppose translates into "I'll shut up rather than put up")

Perhaps you should have taken that route before making incorrect claims. As I said, ignorance begets ignorance.

[waldo]

That it's a "horrible idea" is a matter of opinion. But do you realize that more than half of Americans don't own a gun? - or live in a household with a gun?

In 1977, 54 percent of American adults lived in a household that contained a gun. By 2010, that figure had declined a full 22 percentage points to 32 percent.

fun with statistics, hey? That GSS survey, the lowest of low number, being flogged everywhere assumes on the GSS survey methodology (which is direct, face-to-face), the demographics of survey participants... as well as participants answering truthfully. Polls counter that GSS survey number (e.g. Gallup which places the household number between 40-45%). Additionally, significant critique of that GSS survey number exists with studies showing that telephone survey methodologies raise the household number into the 40-45% level... raising the question as to whether persons are more likely to speak truthfully in a less direct 'anonymous' questioning manner)... and, the NRA itself, places the number of American households owning guns at that same 40-45% level

from that same NRA website link:

- Privately owned firearms in the U.S.: Approaching 300 million, including nearly 100 million handguns.

- The number of firearms rises over 4 million annually.

- Gun owners in the U.S.: 70-80 million; 40-45 million own handguns

- American households that have firearms: 40-45%

of course, the real true number of American households that possess a gun is unknown since no national American registry database exists... that sort of certainty would help, don't you think? In the interests of your quest for accurate household possession numbers, you'd support a U.S. national registry database, right? Right? You're all about accuracy of statistics, right?