Ontario Teachers Strike

Boges · August 29, 2012

Just so we are clear, that sentiment isn't what this fight is about. The teachers already agreed to the freeze plus a cut of three PD days (which means they are getting paid for less days meaning they are taking a pay cut) this fight is about their sick days.

It's interesting that they don't mention this in the ads they've plastered the radio waves. They just say the Province is taking away the Boards ability to reach a deal on their own and it's anti-democractic :rolleyes:

They know the idea of banking sick days is ridiculous to most of the public.

westguy · August 29, 2012

Wow thats shitty pay. Do people think thats too high?

what value is put on teacher's benefits including: PD days, 3months holidays, etc

Boges · August 29, 2012

what value is put on teacher's benefits including: PD days, 3months holidays, etc

Ironclad Pension, Very difficult to lose their job, etc.

jacee · August 29, 2012

It's interesting that they don't mention this in the ads they've plastered the radio waves. They just say the Province is taking away the Boards ability to reach a deal on their own and it's anti-democractic

They know the idea of banking sick days is ridiculous to most of the public.

Banking sick days for a retirement payout was a government incentive and money saving strategy to avoid paying supply teachers. If it's removed there may not be savings as teachers won't come to work sick like they do now.

It's not just a perk.

Boges · August 29, 2012

Banking sick days for a retirement payout was a government incentive and money saving strategy to avoid paying supply teachers. If it's removed there may not be savings as teachers won't come to work sick like they do now.

It's not just a perk.

Coming to work (legitimately) sick is not something they should be doing anyway. It's hilarious that employees would need an incentive to come to work.

They want to cut sick days from 20 to 10 as well. I don't see how that wouldn't save money. I can't imagine someone being sick 20 days in a school year. That's one sick day a week for more than 2 thirds of the weeks in the school year.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Boges

punked · August 29, 2012

It's interesting that they don't mention this in the ads they've plastered the radio waves. They just say the Province is taking away the Boards ability to reach a deal on their own and it's anti-democractic

They know the idea of banking sick days is ridiculous to most of the public.

Sure but just so we are clear this is what the fight is about. It seems most don't understand this.

Boges · August 29, 2012

Sure but just so we are clear this is what the fight is about. It seems most don't understand this.

Well there's also the automatic moving up the grid that teachers enjoy at certain stages in their career.

Also the reason the deal will be legislated is that come September first there'll be automatic raises without a deal in place.

TheNewTeddy · August 29, 2012

It's a problem with government and media for teacher perception. Unionised teachers overseas still have respect. When the government labels them "Enemy" and starts slandering them publicly "You don't just sit around all summer and expect a raise" to make them look bad... that is where public respect is lost. Teachers are the enemy.

I think the power of teacher unions has been grossly over estimated. Yeah, they have money to make broadcasts but, teachers only make up something like 1% of Ontarians.

Do teachers deserve to pay for Dalton's mismanagement? Maybe. They did support him. But they don't deserve to pay for corporate tax decreases while even the federal conservatives have started taking notice at the money being held.

I'm in support of a wage freeze but, Dalton needs to show that the entire government system, including subsidies to healthy businesses and corporate taxes, need to be looked at to get us out of this hole... Cherry picking teachers can't solve this.

There is a system set up to deal with collective agreements. Play by the rules. If you want to force a tough deal on teachers, lock them out.

The more I read your posts the more I find myself in agreement with them.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 29, 2012

Well there's also the automatic moving up the grid that teachers enjoy at certain stages in their career.

Also the reason the deal will be legislated is that come September first there'll be automatic raises without a deal in place.

What the Government conveniently avoids telling you is that LABOUR LAWS provide that if a deal is not reached by the end of a contract, then the previous deal continues but only until a new one is reached.

After something like 3 weeks of no deal being reached, a deal could be imposed upon the employees. If they didn't want to pay teachers, they could lock them out.

The costs are mindnumbingly small to be labelled a crisis. The need for legislation is absent, there is no crisis. The legislation is already retroactive.

Especially legislation that says the government is above the constitution.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 29, 2012

Coming to work (legitimately) sick is not something they should be doing anyway. It's hilarious that employees would need an incentive to come to work.

They want to cut sick days from 20 to 10 as well. I don't see how that wouldn't save money. I can't imagine someone being sick 20 days in a school year. That's one sick day a week for more than 2 thirds of the weeks in the school year.

Take em or lose em'. If you get paid sick days, you either take them or lose them. Same thing happens in the private sector.

Now, teachers aren't even allowed to call in for an unpaid absence. Keep that in mind, you can't run a business or anything else if you are a business teacher because you can't take an emergency day to manage it EVEN IF IT COSTS THE BOARD NOTHING.

It's the way it works in the private sector. You are legally entitled to 10 days (unpaid) a year according to employment standards act.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 29, 2012

what value is put on teacher's benefits including: PD days, 3months holidays, etc

You right wing types are nuts. PD days equivalent to holidays? Are you kidding me? Sitting in meetings and workshops? Do lawyers have infinite vacation time because a meeting is a holiday? crazy.

You can include benefits but, 3 months holidays is pushing it.

They aren't actually holidays either. It's time off. They don't get 4% vacation pay like everyone else. They don't get paid for that time. They pay is calculated based on class/prep time. Some boards have negotiated to get the pay spread over the summer.

Boges · August 29, 2012

You right wing types are nuts. PD days equivalent to holidays? Are you kidding me? Sitting in meetings and workshops? Do lawyers have infinite vacation time because a meeting is a holiday? crazy.

You can include benefits but, 3 months holidays is pushing it.

They aren't actually holidays either. It's time off. They don't get 4% vacation pay like everyone else. They don't get paid for that time. They pay is calculated based on class/prep time. Some boards have negotiated to get the pay spread over the summer.

Wow calling it time off and not holiday is supposed to make it different in the public's eyes? :rolleyes:

So you're basically calling teaching seasonal work?

TheNewTeddy · August 29, 2012

It is seasonal, Teachers only work when school is in session.

Sorry of this shocks or surprises anyone.

Boges · August 29, 2012

It is seasonal, Teachers only work when school is in session.

Sorry of this shocks or surprises anyone.

Does your average seasonal worker make enough money where they can take their off season off and not work doing something else?

There was a thread I started a few months ago about the Federal government making seasonal worker do any job instead of applying for EI during their off months. People on this site defended seasonal workers going on EI.

Would anyone defend a teacher going on EI during their summer break?

That being said I'm sure many teachers do teach summer school etc.

TheNewTeddy · August 29, 2012

Does your average seasonal worker make enough money where they can take their off season off and not work doing something else?

There was a thread I started a few months ago about the Federal government making seasonal worker do any job instead of applying for EI during their off months. People on this site defended seasonal workers going on EI.

Would anyone defend a teacher going on EI during their summer break?

That being said I'm sure many teachers do teach summer school etc.

I would not defend this. Frankly, I think Seasonal workers should find winter (or summer) jobs. As for how much seasonal workers make that is not my business, that's the business of the people paying them.

Boges · August 29, 2012

I would not defend this. Frankly, I think Seasonal workers should find winter (or summer) jobs. As for how much seasonal workers make that is not my business, that's the business of the people paying them.

Well teachers have "collectively bargained" that they make a full year's salary pro-rated over 9 months.

Many support a full-year school calender with one or two week breaks scattered throughout the year instead of 2 weeks at Christmas, 1 week in March and 2 months in the Summer.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Boges

madmax · August 29, 2012

Wow calling it time off and not holiday is supposed to make it different in the public's eyes?

So you're basically calling teaching seasonal work?

Well, its not like they are MPs or MPPs.....You know. at Queens Park or Ottawa for a 8 to 10 week stint, then a month off in December, oh, most of January, ok all of it, then crawl back to work in Feb, off for March often, back to work till erm May or June...

A very similar pattern and MPPs and MPs are paid more in Salary and benefits and Pension, particularly those Federal MPs and the six years and out clause... ......

But yes, teaching is Seasonal Work until one day when the government or boards decide to run a school term throughout the summer..

Boges · August 29, 2012

Well, its not like they are MPs or MPPs.....You know. at Queens Park or Ottawa for a 8 to 10 week stint, then a month off in December, oh, most of January, ok all of it, then crawl back to work in Feb, off for March often, back to work till erm May or June...

A very similar pattern and MPPs and MPs are paid more in Salary and benefits and Pension, particularly those Federal MPs and the six years and out clause... ......

But yes, teaching is Seasonal Work until one day when the government or boards decide to run a school term throughout the summer..

So you're comparing elected officials to teachers? :rolleyes:

Teachers don't have constituents they have to answer to and many other responsibilities that don't involve being in sitting at a legislator.

madmax · August 29, 2012

Does your average seasonal worker make enough money where they can take their off season off and not work doing something else?

There was a thread I started a few months ago about the Federal government making seasonal worker do any job instead of applying for EI during their off months. People on this site defended seasonal workers going on EI.

Would anyone defend a teacher going on EI during their summer break?

That being said I'm sure many teachers do teach summer school etc.

If you understood how EI works, I guess its possible but not worth the bother unless the Teacher is not returning in September. EI would not be collectable unless a ROE was received with a date of return.

1) 2week waiting period

2) All Vacation must be used first

This might result in 1 month of EI...

However.... anyone how understands Federal BS and propoganda vs reality knows...

That EI is REPAYED come Tax season the following year, for anyone making over (Depending on region) 45, to 48K which would pretty much cover most teachers....

Lower then tha a percentage is paid back.....

Thus a Teacher might go through all the EI nonsense and maybe if they are a new comer teacher collect $800 for the summer.

With that comes the restrictions of not crossing the border, no holidays, even if entitled, once you apply you are under restrictions, much more easily monitored today with passport travel. One swipe at the border and toast.

Seriously this is a red herring for someone who wants to make some points against teachers.

EI Could be a choice for many new teachers getting scaled back as programs are cancelled and teachers removed from that school board.

But for any teacher with time in, considering EI for the Summer is a very unlikely option.

There is a difference between TIME OFF and VACATION.

TIME OFF is Unpaid

VACATION is PAID

Edited August 29, 2012 by madmax

madmax · August 29, 2012

So you're comparing elected officials to teachers?

Teachers don't have constituents they have to answer to and many other responsibilities that don't involve being in sitting at a legislator.

I have no problem comparing an MP, and MPP to a teacher. Infact many MP, MPPs are teachers....

I have no problem comparing the wage

I have no problem comparing the time in Legislature vs Time in Classroom

I have no problem comparing MPs gold plated pensions to teachers pensions

I have no problem comparing the pot to the kettle.

Edited August 29, 2012 by madmax

Boges · August 29, 2012

TIME OFF is Unpaid

VACATION is PAID

Any way you look at it, it's a pretty sweet deal to make 45k-90k for 9 months of work.

jacee · August 29, 2012

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/08/corporate-welfare-costs-ontario-3-billion-a-year-report

The whole austerity excuse is bogus.

Let's stop the $3b/year private sector drain on public money.

Edited August 29, 2012 by jacee

Boges · August 29, 2012

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/08/corporate-welfare-costs-ontario-3-billion-a-year-report

The whole austerity excuse is bogus.

Let's stop the $3b/year private sector drain on public money.

You're right the Ontario Government should cancel the Green Energy deal it has with Samsung immediately!

If what people have said in this thread are correct and the teacher have no problem taking a wage freeze and this is all about 10 sick days being cut and the ability to bank them until retirement, I'm sorry but those are excellent ways for the province to save money. Call it austerity all you want.

It's not like anyone's losing their job and if they do, blame the school board.

Now as for the subsidies, are you certain they all go into CEO's pockets or do they help employ people? And if they do wouldn't you consider it an investment?

You'd have to give concrete examples of ways in which public money is being flushed down the drain by giving it to the private sector.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Boges

westguy · August 29, 2012

You right wing types are nuts. PD days equivalent to holidays? Are you kidding me? Sitting in meetings and workshops? Do lawyers have infinite vacation time because a meeting is a holiday? crazy.

You can include benefits but, 3 months holidays is pushing it.

They aren't actually holidays either. It's time off. They don't get 4% vacation pay like everyone else. They don't get paid for that time. They pay is calculated based on class/prep time. Some boards have negotiated to get the pay spread over the summer.

however you call it, it is still days teachersdont have to work on and they dont lose pay as a result.

jacee · August 29, 2012

You're right the Ontario Government should cancel the Green Energy deal it has with Samsung immediately!

If what people have said in this thread are correct and the teacher have no problem taking a wage freeze and this is all about 10 sick days being cut and the ability to bank them until retirement, I'm sorry but those are excellent ways for the province to save money. Call it austerity all you want.

It's not savings if the reduced incentive results in more sick days and thus more supply teachers.

It's not like anyone's losing their job and if they do, blame the school board.

Now as for the subsidies, are you certain they all go into CEO's pockets or do they help employ people? And if they do wouldn't you consider it an investment?

You'd have to give concrete examples of ways in which public money is being flushed down the drain by giving it to the private sector.

I'd like to see that too but there is no public accounting of jobs created per corporate subsidy. I guess we're just supposed to trust them. :lol:

"PEOPLE from the wealthy upper classes are more likely than poorer folks to break laws while driving, take candy from children and lie for financial gain, a US study has found.

...

And when given a jar of candy that they were told was for children in a nearby lab - though they could take some if they wanted - the richest people took more candy than anyone else."

http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/study-finds-rich-upper-class-more-likely-to-cheat/story-e6frea8l-1226283886904

Taking money from taxpayers is as easy as taking candy from a baby.

I just think the public sector 'austerity ' cuts should apply to corporate welfare too.

Edited August 29, 2012 by jacee