Ontario Teachers Strike

[madmax]

You don't know anything. Your experiences "teaching" involve on-the-job training and it's probably one-on-one or a small group of people. Yet you seem to think that you would be able to step into a high school and teach 100 or more adolescents, who are going through a time in their life where everything is a crisis. Moreover you have some kids who really excel, while others couldn't give a f*** less if they were in class or do well and can't help but be disruptive.

Perhaps some students should not be forced to stay in school.

Nah. You know nothing about teaching kids. You're just another blowhard that thinks his job is much harder and more important than everyone else's, so you're ready to pass judgement on things you don't know the first thing about. Do yourself a favour and keep your uneducated opinions about jobs you know nothing about to yourself.

While I agree the poster does sound like a blowhard know it all...

On the other side of the fence, teaching was compared to mining...

I always believe that the teacher representatives and the school board and trustees should be calling the shots.

However, how did we get in this position where kids are allowed to keep and use their cellphones while in the classroom?

I know of teachers who cannot confiscate them during the class and return them...

Board policy???

[madmax]

but from my point of view teachers aren't special, it requires a basic education and basic teaching specific training. Having the right aptitude for the job is in my opinion much more important than the schooling, unfortunately it seems many teachers teach because of the pay scale rather than their enjoyment of teaching, like most people they just want a decent job, they aren't special, it isn't a calling.

I also see nothing wrong with this part of the comment presented.

[Argus]

I also see nothing wrong with this part of the comment presented.

I'd agree. Heck, $92,000 a year plus three months off every summer? Sounds pretty good to me.

And way more than teachers get elsewhere.

[westguy]

You don't know anything. Your experiences "teaching" involve on-the-job training and it's probably one-on-one or a small group of people. Yet you seem to think that you would be able to step into a high school and teach 100 or more adolescents, who are going through a time in their life where everything is a crisis. Moreover you have some kids who really excel, while others couldn't give a f*** less if they were in class or do well and can't help but be disruptive.

Nah. You know nothing about teaching kids. You're just another blowhard that thinks his job is much harder and more important than everyone else's, so you're ready to pass judgement on things you don't know the first thing about. Do yourself a favour and keep your uneducated opinions about jobs you know nothing about to yourself.

the pot calling the kettle black...

[sharkman]

I'd agree. Heck, $92,000 a year plus three months off every summer? Sounds pretty good to me.

And way more than teachers get elsewhere.

Isn't it 2 months off per year? I wonder if you would like teacher hours after all. Usually 9 hours at school, then hours at home marking homework. Can be easily 55+ hours per week except more on those weeks you are helping or 'volunteering' at an event. My wife takes some of her students to math competitions, and she sits at the computer for an hour or more writing letters of recommendation for said students. She finds parent teacher meetings the worst though. Parents almost always feel their child is not at fault for their poor grades when she has their poor attendance record to show them.

And you don't see the top salary for a decade or more, but I admit that it's pretty good. I could never teach knowing what my wife goes through.

Edited September 3, 2012 by sharkman

[Argus]

Isn't it 2 months off per year? I wonder if you would like teacher hours after all. Usually 9 hours at school, then hours at home marking homework. Can be easily 55+ hours per week except more on those weeks you are helping or 'volunteering' at an event. My wife takes some of her students to math competitions, and she sits at the computer for an hour or more writing letters of recommendation for said students. She finds parent teacher meetings the worst though. Parents almost always feel their child is not at fault for their poor grades when she has their poor attendance record to show them.

And you don't see the top salary for a decade or more, but I admit that it's pretty good. I could never teach knowing what my wife goes through.

There are tons of people who work long hours and don't get anywhere near that salary. Many of them are highly educated, too. There are a lot of people working high stress, high pressure jobs, very few of whom get the kind of compensation teachers do. Heck, two brothers in law work 10 hour days, 5 days a week. One works in a giant warehouse as a master electrician running its automated equipment and the other is a supervisor in an auto dealership repair shop. They don't get overtime either. And neither makes anything like what your wife gets.

Now my boss makes about that much. He supervises a dozen senior staff maintaining programs in the federal government, as well as processes and budgets for staff in the field. His budget is over three million dollars and he's responsible for maintaining nationwide systems that effect all Canadians. I don't know what hours he works but they're long. A friend of mine is a manager in another department. She easily works 60 hours a week, again supervising a large staff, half of which hates the other half, and is under intense pressure almost every day. Nothing against your wife but I just don't think what she does is comparable to what they do.

[punked]

There are tons of people who work long hours and don't get anywhere near that salary. Many of them are highly educated, too. There are a lot of people working high stress, high pressure jobs, very few of whom get the kind of compensation teachers do. Heck, two brothers in law work 10 hour days, 5 days a week. One works in a giant warehouse as a master electrician running its automated equipment and the other is a supervisor in an auto dealership repair shop. They don't get overtime either. And neither makes anything like what your wife gets.

There also a lo of people who work less and have less education who get paid less. If we were to look at the average teacher in the average board they would make about what the rest of the people who work the same amount hours in a year makeep. If we want judge teachers by whoa the highest paid one makes well that is just unfair. They work hard and most start out sat what 45 000 a year and it takes what 7 years now to get a full time job now and start climbing the ladder? I think where they are now is about where they should be. Yep there are plenty of people who work as hard as they do who earn less but there are plenty who earn more and I dont see anyone here arguing they should earn more do I?

[TheNewTeddy]

None of that matters.

The teachers won't even make a positive case for themselves. Until they do, none of the arguments matter.

[madmax]

Isn't it 2 months off per year? I wonder if you would like teacher hours after all. Usually 9 hours at school, then hours at home marking homework. Can be easily 55+ hours per week except more on those weeks you are helping or 'volunteering' at an event. My wife takes some of her students to math competitions, and she sits at the computer for an hour or more writing letters of recommendation for said students. She finds parent teacher meetings the worst though. Parents almost always feel their child is not at fault for their poor grades when she has their poor attendance record to show them.

And you don't see the top salary for a decade or more, but I admit that it's pretty good. I could never teach knowing what my wife goes through.

I guess you misunderstand.

I do not support the actions of the McGuinty Government. Mainly because its real politik vs necessity. They had no problem giving out $81,000 in a 1st quarter bonus to a poorly run, organization involved in a billion dollar boondoggle.... of course then there is Orng. and virutally ever other Liberal Failure in their privatization quest.

However, I like many others are not going to have any sympathy for people who do their jobs. We all have to go to work and I am sure many here have worked a 55 hour week, let alone an 85 hour week with split shifts mixed in with regular rotating shifts, on weekends nad throughout the year and often for near minimum wage.

And after 20 years, you still have no holidays beyond your 4% pay given.

If the teachers goal is to win over hearts and minds with " Gosh this is a tough job" ....

good luck with that.

Labour Economics is my background. I do not believe in driving everyones wages down, as I do not find that helps the economy.

Knowing that OSTF and ETFO had already back in April took on the position of accepting a wage freeze....

This clearly isn't about money to McGuinty. This is more a scam much like the Gas Furnace in oakville. That cost us $180million in contractual disputes res.

I have no idea if the teacher challenge in teh courts will win or fail. But if it succeeds, it would likely erase all "projected" savings. And that is a risk McGuinty is taking in order to attempt to secure another seat.

Ironically people are once again Believing the McGuinty Government.

I am sure whatever savings they squeeze, they will blow on something else

[madmax]

None of that matters.

The teachers won't even make a positive case for themselves. Until they do, none of the arguments matter.

Agreed.

[madmax]

There are tons of people who work long hours and don't get anywhere near that salary. Many of them are highly educated, too. There are a lot of people working high stress, high pressure jobs, very few of whom get the kind of compensation teachers do. Heck, two brothers in law work 10 hour days, 5 days a week. One works in a giant warehouse as a master electrician running its automated equipment and the other is a supervisor in an auto dealership repair shop. They don't get overtime either. And neither makes anything like what your wife gets.

Agreed,

Bloody heck, not with Argus... the horror the horrot, the horror

Edited September 3, 2012 by madmax

[cybercoma]

Perhaps some students should not be forced to stay in school.

While I agree the poster does sound like a blowhard know it all...

On the other side of the fence, teaching was compared to mining...

I always believe that the teacher representatives and the school board and trustees should be calling the shots.

However, how did we get in this position where kids are allowed to keep and use their cellphones while in the classroom?

I know of teachers who cannot confiscate them during the class and return them...

Board policy???

You know, the toughest part about high school is that the students must be there. It's mandatory until they're 16 or 18, I'm not sure exactly. That means that it's the teacher's responsibility to make sure that they are learning as much as they can. On the other hand, university professors have no such obligation to ensure the students are learning. The students are paying to be there, so it's up to them whether they want to learn or not. So what happens in high school is that the students with the cellphones who aren't paying attention need to be handled by the teachers. They need to do everything they can to make sure the kids are learning or else the teacher gets blamed for not doing his/her job. Meanwhile, parents in most cases to very little to help their children or encourage them to do well in school. Often times their idea of making sure their kids are doing well is going to parent-teacher interviews and racking the teachers over the coals when their kid doesn't do well, instead of putting the responsibility on their kid. Obviously these dynamics are nothing like training people for jobs. If you don't want to take the training or don't do the training, you're fired. It's not the same thing at all. Again, teaching high school is not the same as teaching university either.

Basically, I think kids in high school should have their cellphones confiscated while they're in class, unless they have a documented emergency that requires them to carry it (sick parent, for example). In university, I think everyone should be able to keep their cellphones. In fact, I couldn't possibly care less if students are playing with their phones during lectures. It's not the professor's responsibility to make sure you're learning. In fact, it doesn't matter if you're learning. If you don't want a degree that's your prerogative. However, the basics that you're taught in high school are a necessity for a well-functioning society. So attendance is mandatory and it's the teacher's responsibility to ensure everyone is being educated.

Edited September 3, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

I'd agree. Heck, $92,000 a year plus three months off every summer? Sounds pretty good to me.

And way more than teachers get elsewhere.

I don't know any teachers that are making $92,000/year. I know university professors that make less than that.

Edited September 3, 2012 by cybercoma

[sharkman]

There are tons of people who work long hours and don't get anywhere near that salary. Many of them are highly educated, too. There are a lot of people working high stress, high pressure jobs, very few of whom get the kind of compensation teachers do. Heck, two brothers in law work 10 hour days, 5 days a week. One works in a giant warehouse as a master electrician running its automated equipment and the other is a supervisor in an auto dealership repair shop. They don't get overtime either. And neither makes anything like what your wife gets.

Now my boss makes about that much. He supervises a dozen senior staff maintaining programs in the federal government, as well as processes and budgets for staff in the field. His budget is over three million dollars and he's responsible for maintaining nationwide systems that effect all Canadians. I don't know what hours he works but they're long. A friend of mine is a manager in another department. She easily works 60 hours a week, again supervising a large staff, half of which hates the other half, and is under intense pressure almost every day. Nothing against your wife but I just don't think what she does is comparable to what they do.

I asked my wife what the top salary is in BC and for a teacher with a master's degree (5 years plus one year teacher college training) is about 75,000. I'm not sure if that's comparable with the 92,000 number in Ontario education wise. But the teachers in Ont. teach one less course than the BC teachers have to. So with those new facts I think the Ontario teachers have it a little too good, but I still think it's a tough stressful job that people fail to realize. It's also a very beneficial and almost profoundly good thing to teach kids these fundamentals and it also affects Canada as a whole.

As for your brothers in law, the trades have been slow in Ontario from what I understand. But they should be getting overtime for anything over 37.5 or 40hrs/week. I'd say the employer is taking advantage of them. But in general, it has always been this way, the more education you have the better pay you can achieve. And all sectors of the job market do not pay on the same scale, nor depending on how much stress you experience. It seems unfair, but that is the way things are. That said, I do think the Ontario teachers have it a little too good. Can they strike in Ontario? In BC they were made an essential service and can not strike.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

There are tons of people who work long hours and don't get anywhere near that salary. Many of them are highly educated, too. There are a lot of people working high stress, high pressure jobs, very few of whom get the kind of compensation teachers do. Heck, two brothers in law work 10 hour days, 5 days a week. One works in a giant warehouse as a master electrician running its automated equipment and the other is a supervisor in an auto dealership repair shop. They don't get overtime either. And neither makes anything like what your wife gets.

The Employer standards act mandates that they should get overtime pay, thanks to unions

Mike Harris changed it to 44 hours though, instead of 40 I believe. But still that's a solid 6 hours of overtime they are entitled to by law that they are missing out on.

They just need to suck it up and tell their employer.

The electrician specialist could easily make over 90k a year if he had a drive to do so. GOOD people are in demand with those quals.

Supervisor, not so much. But, the job is pretty easy.

Edited September 3, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[socialist]

good to see that thousands of people are in support of teachers. keep up the good work ontario.

http://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-teachers-backed-at-labour-day-parade-1.940495

Just to be fair, i will also provide a link full of nonsense and fallacies.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/page/2

[TheNewTeddy]

good to see that thousands of people are in support of teachers. keep up the good work ontario.

http://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-teachers-backed-at-labour-day-parade-1.940495

Just to be fair, i will also provide a link full of nonsense and fallacies.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/page/2

Are you going to even try to make a post that supports your own position?

[Argus]

As for your brothers in law, the trades have been slow in Ontario from what I understand. But they should be getting overtime for anything over 37.5 or 40hrs/week. I'd say the employer is taking advantage of them.

They are all considered supervisory. For the federal govt managers, well, the employer never actually tells them to work overtime. Instead they're loaded down with work to the point they can't possibly cope without putting in lots of extra work. This is generally understood by all involved, but the cutbacks have meant those hours have gotten a lot longer.

A friend of mine was a junior manager with Bell Canada. When they promoted her again she quit because it was the general understand there that with every promotion you had to give an extra ten hours of your time to Bell. If you failed to, you wouldn't last long.

There is pressure and stress in a lot of jobs, some of it with a lot more responsibility than a teacher has to cope with, and few others get that kind of benefit and salary package.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Teachers need to get with reality. Just because you're in a union doesn't mean you get to live in an alternate reality where global economics doesn't affect you.

And stop using the word "deserve". It makes you sound like spoiled chideren. You don't "deserve" anything. Grown adults earn, they don't "deserve".

You guys get full pensions and annual wage increases. That's way more than most anyone else gets in the world, so count yourself as lucky.

[Argus]

I don't know any teachers that are making $92,000/year. I know university professors that make less than that.

Came from here

In Ontario, the average teacher makes $83,500 a year. An experienced elementary-school teacher tops out at more than $92,000 a year. That’s a lot of money for teaching Grade 3 in Thunder Bay. Benefits are generous, and the cost is typically paid entirely by the employer. Then there are the summers off, the job security and the guaranteed pension that begins as early as 55. Someone who qualifies for the full amount will collect $63,000 a year (including CPP), which is considerably more than the highest salaries of U.S. teachers ($54,660, according to pension expert Bill Tufts).

Globe and Mail

[GostHacked]

if the Liberals don't give teachers what we deserve then there will be a strike. we are tired of governments who have no clue what we have to go through. mcguinty better quickly realize how much support the teachers in ontario gave him in this last election. thank goodness we have awesome teacher unions in this province looking out for teachers and students. i'm disgusted.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/start-of-ontarios-school-year-in-jeopardy-if-labour-talks-stall/article4449756/

I sure hope they lose all those accumulated sick days. I have 10 days a year myself, if I don't use them I lose them.

Might as well give these teachers a ZERO.

[socialist]

Are you going to even try to make a post that supports your own position?

i've made my position abundantly clear. you would have to be stupid to not know where i stand. i am pro teacher, pro teacher unions, and right now i am anti-ontario liberals.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Came from here

In Ontario, the average teacher makes $83,500 a year. An experienced elementary-school teacher tops out at more than $92,000 a year. That’s a lot of money for teaching Grade 3 in Thunder Bay. Benefits are generous, and the cost is typically paid entirely by the employer. Then there are the summers off, the job security and the guaranteed pension that begins as early as 55. Someone who qualifies for the full amount will collect $63,000 a year (including CPP), which is considerably more than the highest salaries of U.S. teachers ($54,660, according to pension expert Bill Tufts).

Globe and Mail

"A New York City charter school earned headlines in 2008 for its plans to pay teachers $125,000 in exchange for working longer hours and assuming additional duties. A voluntary program instituted in Washington, D.C., last year could raise total compensation for some teachers to $140,000 Some teachers in Wisconsin and Illinois are also reportedly as handsomely compensated along with other states. According to the NEA, about 1% of teachers are paid that well." http://bit.ly/TTg2pq

Average teacher salaries are worse. In many areas, you don't need a degree, and that brings the average pay way, way down.

Teachers in the states are also often PAID to coach teams and run after school programs. Just saying.

Edited September 4, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[TheNewTeddy]

i've made my position abundantly clear. you would have to be stupid to not know where i stand. i am pro teacher, pro teacher unions, and right now i am anti-ontario liberals.

You are not pro teacher union, if you were, you'd be trying to convince the public that their stance is right.

[madmax]

The Employer standards act mandates that they should get overtime pay, thanks to unions

Mike Harris changed it to 44 hours though, instead of 40 I believe. But still that's a solid 6 hours of overtime they are entitled to by law that they are missing out on.

That does not have to be the case, there are many ways to avoid OT.

Contract, Salary or if the operation has applied and received the 60 hour work week.

Others, like Truck Drivers are often on 60 hour week straight time.

Cab drivers as well.

On top of that regular employees are often subject to hour shifting, such as working 50 hours one week and if in the next 4 weeks they work say 36, there is no OT pay.

On top of that, parttime temp agency workers working over 44 hours often get their hours shifted held back, or swung to a different "employer".

They just need to suck it up and tell their employer.

The electrician specialist could easily make over 90k a year if he had a drive to do so. GOOD people are in demand with those quals.

Supervisor, not so much. But, the job is pretty easy.

if you say so