Ontario Teachers Strike

[j44]

I like how people get away with this stuff around these parts.

I like how they think that no one will catch the lie.

[westguy]

there will be a HUGE rally at queen's park in support of teachers and public education. hope to see some of you there. this affects us all.

yeah - that'll happen

[westguy]

It would be great to see a rally against the teachers. Unfortunately, most parents have to work for a living.

unlike most teachers

[westguy]

deep down i like mcguinty and he is probably the best premier this province has had. i just hope he comes to his senses and does what is right for ontario teachers.

have you checked the Ontario deficit/debt???

[dre]

In the 50s lots in the 60s....

that said, my bro made 40,000 in his early years starting out a decade ago and I believe he is close to 50 now..... my close friend made 36 in his 3rd year this past year , (he's likely not going to return to teaching this year as he has accepted a position elsewhere for just over 60...), but my brotherinlaw made nearly 70 before he passed away....he was a dep head...I believe there are admins and principles and such who exceed 100000.....but they are not involved in this dispute iirc...

regardless, this charade is a successful ploy to get people onto a scapegoat and divert attention from a major budget failure and the desire to implement all day kindergarten with no money to do it...and no plan or competence to deal with billion dollar boondoggles, and scams by Liberal connected insiders.

Its funny how quickly it works.

Wow thats shitty pay. Do people think thats too high?

[TheNewTeddy]

If I was emperor of the universe, I'd pay teachers $65,000

More than that, especially much more, is too much, yes.

[madmax]

I haven't heard a lot of what's being talked about in K-Dub and how the PCs are framing the debate, are they talking about how the Liberals have contempt for rural Ontario? Ehealth, Ornge, Power Plants, Hydro Bills etc etc. It would be a shame if these bi-elections are fought only on McGuinty talking tough to the teachers.

I think you have answered your own question.

It appears to be a very successful tactic.

[madmax]

Wow thats shitty pay. Do people think thats too high?

It is what it is, and wages for Private Sector have fallen from 40 and 50 to 20 and 30, as the jobs relocated and the new jobs don't pay highwages or use a more technical skillset as most new jobs are very very unskilled with almost no semi skilled let alone skilled workforce or they have been coopted by temp agencies. So there is alot of bitter people who have little symp for teachers.

Don't lose sight that Teachers do have great benefits, many stat holidays and summers off and they will receive their pension when retired (Unlike most others), and work straight days and no weekends. Compared to working stiffs...it looks pretty good, but it is NOT the pay rates that others are suggesting, even though it is possible to get to 90,000.

Like everything, there is a divide between new teachers and seasoned teachers.

I am surprised that the Liberals haven't split the pay of new hires like companies have done.

New hires often work for 2/3s the wage and different benefit and pension structures.

Edited August 28, 2012 by madmax

[Topaz]

I wonder how many parents are thinking of or have signed their kids up to other schools that the teachers have settled their contracts? The teachers standing up, may ended up having the Board laying off when the population of the school nose dives because parent pulled thier kids out of the schools and sent them else where.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

around 40K

...

That's a lie.

Average salary is above 70k.

Ontario median teacher pay was in line with most other provinces.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I wonder how many parents are thinking of or have signed their kids up to other schools that the teachers have settled their contracts? The teachers standing up, may ended up having the Board laying off when the population of the school nose dives because parent pulled thier kids out of the schools and sent them else where.

Considering like only 3 boards officially signed... I don't think that it is much of a problem. But that was the Catholic plan to attack the public system dodging the long haul battle. It's in their unions interest to take more public money... the Catholic board spends more per student then the public board in wasted money on new schools while old public schools operate at a fraction of capacity.

The fact that I hear Catholic advertisements paid with public dollars to get students to their schools tells me that this system is exceptionally broken.

[socialist]

Thousands of people gathered in Queen's park today to show their support for teachers. THOUSANDS!!! It seems there are alot of fools on this forum who will have to eat a little crow. looks like support for teachers and public education continues to be VERY strong.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/teachers-urge-ontario-to-negotiate-dont-legislate-at-queens-park-rally/article4505493/

[madmax]

Thousands of people gathered in Queen's park today to show their support for teachers. THOUSANDS!!! It seems there are alot of fools on this forum who will have to eat a little crow. looks like support for teachers and public education continues to be VERY strong.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/teachers-urge-ontario-to-negotiate-dont-legislate-at-queens-park-rally/article4505493/

I have seen and been to massive demonstrations in the past.

I have to say, that considering the school year hasn't started and most teachers are off, I was surprised at how low the turnout was considering how strong it could be.

It was a demonstration, but those numbers while it may have seemed large to you, wouldn't have made the government bat an eyelid.

Infact, it helps highlight the government actions, and gives the current government more press.

The question you must ask yourself.

Did the demonstration make a difference in public opinion or government action?

If the answer to both of these is no... then it was a gathering of the converted meeting on a lawn.

Which is fine as I believe in protesting government, as a civil action and even a duty.

[socialist]

I have seen and been to massive demonstrations in the past.

I have to say, that considering the school year hasn't started and most teachers are off, I was surprised at how low the turnout was considering how strong it could be.

It was a demonstration, but those numbers while it may have seemed large to you, wouldn't have made the government bat an eyelid.

Infact, it helps highlight the government actions, and gives the current government more press.

The question you must ask yourself.

Did the demonstration make a difference in public opinion or government action?

If the answer to both of these is no... then it was a gathering of the converted meeting on a lawn.

Which is fine as I believe in protesting government, as a civil action and even a duty.

madmax, there were thousands there from across canada. teacher union reps from other provinces were there because they know democracy and the right to fair bargaining is being threatened.

[Wild Bill]

madmax, there were thousands there from across canada. teacher union reps from other provinces were there because they know democracy and the right to fair bargaining is being threatened.

Of course all the teachers came out! Quelle surprise, duh!

How many folks of the public at large were there? Not other unions supporting each other like push button robots but ordinary parents of school children?

In other words, how much ordinary citizen support do teachers have? This is all that matters, because McGuinty knows full well that screwing the teachers will bring him more votes than he will lose.

And that's all a politician of any party cares about!

Realpolitik 101, For Dummies!

[TheNewTeddy]

Of course all the teachers came out! Quelle surprise, duh!

How many folks of the public at large were there? Not other unions supporting each other like push button robots but ordinary parents of school children?

In other words, how much ordinary citizen support do teachers have? This is all that matters, because McGuinty knows full well that screwing the teachers will bring him more votes than he will lose.

And that's all a politician of any party cares about!

Realpolitik 101, For Dummies!

I've given up trying to explain this stuff to him. He seems to be of the opinion that

"Anyone who disagrees with me does not know what they are talking about, and therefore, their opinions do not count, they are not part of "everyone" anymore cause they don't know what they are talking about" and that thus "everyone agrees with me, so I must be right"

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I've given up trying to explain this stuff to him. He seems to be of the opinion that

"Anyone who disagrees with me does not know what they are talking about, and therefore, their opinions do not count, they are not part of "everyone" anymore cause they don't know what they are talking about" and that thus "everyone agrees with me, so I must be right"

A City TV poll had a 55% disagreement. Which in my opinion is low since conservative supporters pretty much want to see teachers paid in dirt. Anti-teacher is pretty much part of the right wing ideology.

McGuinty has been waging a war of misinformation. There is a process for him to follow, he just doesn't like it because it doesn't win votes. Don't want wages to roll over? Lockout teachers.

The unions tried to negotiate, the Liberals wanted no part in it. "These are the parameters, accept them" is not collective bargaining.

If the liberals said "We need to save X dollars a year, lets do this" the unions would help find money, especially wasted money in administration, to save. But again, if McGuinty put a number he wanted to cut from education, that wouldn't win votes either.

The fact that this legislation says that McGuinty can't be challenged by the constitution/court/ontario labour laws is what concerns me. No government is above the constitution.

Edited August 29, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[socialist]

A City TV poll had a 55% disagreement. Which in my opinion is low since conservative supporters pretty much want to see teachers paid in dirt. Anti-teacher is pretty much part of the right wing ideology.

McGuinty has been waging a war of misinformation. There is a process for him to follow, he just doesn't like it because it doesn't win votes. Don't want wages to roll over? Lockout teachers.

The unions tried to negotiate, the Liberals wanted no part in it. "These are the parameters, accept them" is not collective bargaining.

If the liberals said "We need to save X dollars a year, lets do this" the unions would help find money, especially wasted money in administration, to save. But again, if McGuinty put a number he wanted to cut from education, that wouldn't win votes either.

The fact that this legislation says that McGuinty can't be challenged by the constitution/court/ontario labour laws is what concerns me. No government is above the constitution.

exactly! the teachers aren't the problem here, the government is.

[Newfoundlander]

A City TV poll had a 55% disagreement. Which in my opinion is low since conservative supporters pretty much want to see teachers paid in dirt. Anti-teacher is pretty much part of the right wing ideology.

Just because someone supports a particular party doesn't mean they support everything that party stands for. Not all Progressive Conservtives are right wing fascists.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Newfoundlander

[Wild Bill]

A City TV poll had a 55% disagreement. Which in my opinion is low since conservative supporters pretty much want to see teachers paid in dirt. Anti-teacher is pretty much part of the right wing ideology.

McGuinty has been waging a war of misinformation. There is a process for him to follow, he just doesn't like it because it doesn't win votes. Don't want wages to roll over? Lockout teachers.

The unions tried to negotiate, the Liberals wanted no part in it. "These are the parameters, accept them" is not collective bargaining.

If the liberals said "We need to save X dollars a year, lets do this" the unions would help find money, especially wasted money in administration, to save. But again, if McGuinty put a number he wanted to cut from education, that wouldn't win votes either.

The fact that this legislation says that McGuinty can't be challenged by the constitution/court/ontario labour laws is what concerns me. No government is above the constitution.

It doesn't matter if the teachers are in the right or the wrong. Over the past couple of decades they have made some serious blunders with their public image that has played right into a politician's hands.

For over a century teachers were thought of as professionals, like doctors or engineers. Not people who you would trust to take a tumour out of your brain but still, in that camp. Then a serious change occurred. Teachers became militant unionists!

Not all, of course, but certainly they show a very strong union public image. Standing up in SkyDome singing Solidarity Forever with Buzz Hargrove was rather obvious! The public statements at contract time sound cribbed right from a Sid Ryan handbook.

Of course, teachers have the right to take any political preference they wish and to be as militant a union as they care to be. That's democracy, after all. The problem is, they have limited their public support to the same levels as that of those parties that champion unions, meaning just the NDP.

Teacher support is no longer mainstream. To the average citizen teachers appear to be the same as autoworkers. There is a disconnect between teachers and the public, a disconnect that teachers have created themselves.

If leftwing unionism was mainstream the NDP would have been in office in Ontario for the past decades and decades. Again, it doesn't matter if you support the NDP or not. The level of support for the NDP is less than the support for the PCs and Liberals added together.

Everything comes at a price. The teachers made their choices and its not for we outsiders to say if they were good or bad, in themselves. Perhaps for purposes of contract negotiation they were very good choices. Still, it is obvious that they may not have been the best as far as sustaining mainstream public support.

They have handed McGuinty the rope he needs to hang them! McGuinty can screw the teachers over and he will win far more votes than he will lose. It doesn't matter that he is outright lying about what has happened during negotiations. The public does not care. The average parent works in the private sector and they are mostly hurting badly, struggling to raise their families and keep the house from being repossessed. They see the pay scale, benefits and most of all, the job security that insulates teachers from the hard hits of the job market. They then tend to look at McGuinty as a saviour.

More simply, if you act like a militant UAW or CUPE worker then the general public will consider you such! That's the way it is today. In politics, perception is everything.

I've been watching this build for a long time. I find it amazing hat the teachers have been so naive.

[madmax]

madmax, there were thousands there from across canada. teacher union reps from other provinces were there because they know democracy and the right to fair bargaining is being threatened.

1) How many teachers Elementary and Secondary are there in the Province

If 2 teachers/people for every school in Ontario showed,That would be close to 10,000

But it looks like around 5 to 7000 of all stripes showed up.

2) How many teachers are affected...

70,453.05 elementary and 43,933.52 secondary teachers

Thats 110000 potential protesters who , not being at work could have appeared, but decided they had more important things to do.

3) One might say there have been many many many many times over since Unions were "Legalized" and Labour Relations created that "Democracy" has been under attack.

Perhaps you missed the Postal Workers Lockout and the Air Canada Nonsense...

There have been hundreds upon Hundreds of rallies to stop the erosion of Union Rights across the Province and injustices within the workplace and trampling of collective bargaining.

What makes this event different from other losses in collective bargaining rights?

Back to the original question.

Whos minds have you changed? Have you made a case to influence or modify government direction.

I would suggest the answer to that question is NO.

I also think that the teachers Unions are correct in NOT trying to dial up the temperature as this is what McGuinty wants. A phoney Enemy, someone to beat and look tough...

Remember its YOU who suggested he is a one of the best premiers we have ever had.

I look at this thread and I see Consistency.

1) Left, Right, Centre and Populist all feel this is trumped up to divert attention from the Liberal Record and possible influence the bi elections.

2) All have pretty much identified that the teachers won't find alot of sympathy from the voter.

3) Most here believe that the tactic is working

I watched the News last night and its ironic to hear the comments from people thanking McGuinty for Preventing a strike. And comments like, its wrong to use my kids as hostages.

Real Politik 101

absolutely

[MiddleClassCentrist]

It doesn't matter if the teachers are in the right or the wrong. Over the past couple of decades they have made some serious blunders with their public image that has played right into a politician's hands.

For over a century teachers were thought of as professionals, like doctors or engineers. Not people who you would trust to take a tumour out of your brain but still, in that camp. Then a serious change occurred. Teachers became militant unionists!

Not all, of course, but certainly they show a very strong union public image. Standing up in SkyDome singing Solidarity Forever with Buzz Hargrove was rather obvious! The public statements at contract time sound cribbed right from a Sid Ryan handbook.

Of course, teachers have the right to take any political preference they wish and to be as militant a union as they care to be. That's democracy, after all. The problem is, they have limited their public support to the same levels as that of those parties that champion unions, meaning just the NDP.

Teacher support is no longer mainstream. To the average citizen teachers appear to be the same as autoworkers. There is a disconnect between teachers and the public, a disconnect that teachers have created themselves.

Everything comes at a price. The teachers made their choices and its not for we outsiders to say if they were good or bad, in themselves. Perhaps for purposes of contract negotiation they were very good choices. Still, it is obvious that they may not have been the best as far as sustaining mainstream public support.

They have handed McGuinty the rope he needs to hang them! McGuinty can screw the teachers over and he will win far more votes than he will lose. It doesn't matter that he is outright lying about what has happened during negotiations. The public does not care. The average parent works in the private sector and they are mostly hurting badly, struggling to raise their families and keep the house from being repossessed. They see the pay scale, benefits and most of all, the job security that insulates teachers from the hard hits of the job market. They then tend to look at McGuinty as a saviour.

More simply, if you act like a militant UAW or CUPE worker then the general public will consider you such! That's the way it is today. In politics, perception is everything.

I've been watching this build for a long time. I find it amazing hat the teachers have been so naive.

It's a problem with government and media for teacher perception. Unionised teachers overseas still have respect. When the government labels them "Enemy" and starts slandering them publicly "You don't just sit around all summer and expect a raise" to make them look bad... that is where public respect is lost. Teachers are the enemy.

I think the power of teacher unions has been grossly over estimated. Yeah, they have money to make broadcasts but, teachers only make up something like 1% of Ontarians.

Do teachers deserve to pay for Dalton's mismanagement? Maybe. They did support him. But they don't deserve to pay for corporate tax decreases while even the federal conservatives have started taking notice at the money being held.

I'm in support of a wage freeze but, Dalton needs to show that the entire government system, including subsidies to healthy businesses and corporate taxes, need to be looked at to get us out of this hole... Cherry picking teachers can't solve this.

There is a system set up to deal with collective agreements. Play by the rules. If you want to force a tough deal on teachers, lock them out.

Edited August 29, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Boges]

I'm in support of a wage freeze but, Dalton needs to show that the entire government system, including subsidies to healthy businesses and corporate taxes, need to be looked at to get us out of this hole... Cherry picking teachers can't solve this.

So I guess you agree with the PCs sentiment that all public servants should have their salaries frozen and not just teachers.

[Wild Bill]

It's a problem with government and media for teacher perception. Unionised teachers overseas still have respect. When the government labels them "Enemy" and starts slandering them publicly "You don't just sit around all summer and expect a raise" to make them look bad... that is where public respect is lost. Teachers are the enemy.

I think the power of teacher unions has been grossly over estimated. Yeah, they have money to make broadcasts but, teachers only make up something like 1% of Ontarians.

Do teachers deserve to pay for Dalton's mismanagement? Maybe. They did support him. But they don't deserve to pay for corporate tax decreases while even the federal conservatives have started taking notice at the money being held.

I'm in support of a wage freeze but, Dalton needs to show that the entire government system, including subsidies to healthy businesses and corporate taxes, need to be looked at to get us out of this hole... Cherry picking teachers can't solve this.

There is a system set up to deal with collective agreements. Play by the rules. If you want to force a tough deal on teachers, lock them out.

I'm curious as to why you made your reply to my post, considered you ignored virtually everything I said in it.

[punked]

So I guess you agree with the PCs sentiment that all public servants should have their salaries frozen and not just teachers.

Just so we are clear, that sentiment isn't what this fight is about. The teachers already agreed to the freeze plus a cut of three PD days (which means they are getting paid for less days meaning they are taking a pay cut) this fight is about their sick days.