More guns = more homicides

[Spiderfish]

What do you think about needing to belong to a gun range and needing to leave handguns at the facility rather than being allowed to take them with you? The facility would have to be properly secured of course.

Apparently, handguns are only for target practice and a range is the only place that they are allowed to be used.... legally, that is....

I think that would be a good step in gun safety. Nothing would be banned. Handgun owners would still be allowed to use their handguns like they have always legally been allowed to... win/win!

I don't see what this would solve. If there was a reason or a point to doing this I could see it. Would this idea of yours have stopped or prevented the gang members from shooting up the neighborhood in TO? No, the guns they used were illegal to own or use in Canada.

If your idea was legislated, then the next time an incident such as this happened, we would all be asking how do we go further to prevent gun violence. The next step to go from locking legally owned guns up at some remote site would be complete confiscation and ban, which is what anti-gun advocates are pushing for. Lets say we did ban handguns, and more gun violence happened. Then what? Well, I guess we had better ban long guns as well.

This stuff doesn't happen overnight, our incredibly rigid gun laws in this country have been getting stricter and stricter over time. If we don't say enough with the over-regulation of legal gun ownership and demand the focus be put where it really belongs, on criminals with illegal guns using them for illegal purposes instead of law abiding citizens, we might as well just go ahead and ban all guns outright, which is something more than a few people would be only too happy to see happen. Unfortunately these people don't hunt, target shoot, or have any involvement. Why do we feel they should have influence in gun control legislation when they have no personal investment in the matter aside from despising gun violence and crime? We all despise gun violence and crime. The law abiding gun owners despise it more than any other group, because every time an incident such as this happens, the freedom they currently enjoy with legitimate, legal gun possession is threatened by people who see the simple answer is being to ban all guns.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Spiderfish

[The_Squid]

Your assumption that legal guns never make it into the hands of criminals is seriously flawed.

Apparently (and this is U.S. stats, I couldn't find a comparable article about Canada) 10-15% of gun crimes occur from stolen guns from law-abiding citizens.

In my opinion, 10-15% is still rather significant! So the idea for storing guns more safely in a secure location may help prevent 10-15% of crimes that occur from stolen guns. That would be pretty good, no?

Then there are straw purchases where someone gets a buddy to get a gun for him. And there are dealers who are shady themselves who will sell a gun to anyone who asks. They themselves are legal sellers, but they will sell to someone who isn't supposed to own a gun.

How do we get rid of the rotten sellers? Well, I have a plan. Have the government sell guns. And only the government. If you want a .45 magnum, then you buy it from the police gun-shop. This would eliminate the shady gun dealers.

So there you have it. We get rid of crooked gun dealers who sell legal guns to potential criminals by eliminating all gun dealers and we eliminate stolen handguns by having them stored at a secure facility all the while not banning any guns and law-abiding owners still get to use their handguns for target practice, which is the only legal reason to own a handgun.

Here is the article about how criminals get guns: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Edited July 26, 2012 by The_Squid

[Wild Bill]

Your assumption that legal guns never make it into the hands of criminals is seriously flawed.

Apparently (and this is U.S. stats, I couldn't find a comparable article about Canada) 10-15% of gun crimes occur from stolen guns from law-abiding citizens.

In my opinion, 10-15% is still rather significant! So the idea for storing guns more safely in a secure location may help prevent 10-15% of crimes that occur from stolen guns. That would be pretty good, no?

Then there are straw purchases where someone gets a buddy to get a gun for him. And there are dealers who are shady themselves who will sell a gun to anyone who asks. They themselves are legal sellers, but they will sell to someone who isn't supposed to own a gun.

How do we get rid of the rotten sellers? Well, I have a plan. Have the government sell guns. And only the government. If you want a .45 magnum, then you buy it from the police gun-shop. This would eliminate the shady gun dealers.

So there you have it. We get rid of crooked gun dealers who sell legal guns to potential criminals by eliminating all gun dealers and we eliminate stolen handguns by having them stored at a secure facility all the while not banning any guns and law-abiding owners still get to use their handguns for target practice, which is the only legal reason to own a handgun.

Here is the article about how criminals get guns: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Why should we start by attacking 10-15% of the problem, assuming your numbers are correct. The real figures may even be lower.

Why not attack the largest part of the problem first? You know, the ILLEGAL USE of guns!

You are advocating nibbling around the edges, with little result other than to piss off and alienate support from legal gun owners. Meanwhile, criminals continue to get guns easily and rather cheaply, with light sentences and plea bargains for actually using them to commit crimes!

I truly don't understand why so many choose this approach.

[The_Squid]

Why should we start by attacking 10-15% of the problem, assuming your numbers are correct. The real figures may even be lower.

Why not attack the largest part of the problem first? You know, the ILLEGAL USE of guns!

You are advocating nibbling around the edges, with little result other than to piss off and alienate support from legal gun owners. Meanwhile, criminals continue to get guns easily and rather cheaply, with light sentences and plea bargains for actually using them to commit crimes!

I truly don't understand why so many choose this approach.

Making it more difficult for criminals to get handguns is not "nibbling around the edges". And it was 10-15% just from stolen guns. Even more are bought from shady gun dealers who are legal to sell but do not follow the law.

They are not my numbers.... read the article. I don't know that this is the same for Canada, but if it is, then these steps would solve a serious issue.

Edited July 26, 2012 by The_Squid

[Spiderfish]

Making it more difficult for criminals to get handguns is not "nibbling around the edges". And it was 10-15% just from stolen guns. Even more are bought from shady gun dealers who are legal to sell but do not follow the law.

I have absolutely no problem with investigating and finding gun shops and dealers who are breaking the law. We should be doing this anyhow! As for the 10-15% of stolen guns from law abiding citizens correlating to 10-15% of the problem, I doubt the numbers would shake out anywhere near that. If the stats are correct (and I see no reason to doubt they are), eliminating the possibility of bad guys getting ahold of legally owned guns will only mean they would buy from the black market. Instead of 85-90% of black-market guns being on the street, 95-98% would be on the street and likely with little to no change in gun crime rates.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Spiderfish

[The_Squid]

None of the pro-gun lobby here has answered the question about whether they want more lax gun regulations akin to the USA.

Also, we can get rid of the shady gun-dealers in one fell swoop by require prospective gun buyers to purchase handguns through the po-po....

Forcing criminals to get their guns through the black market rather than having them purchase from shady legal suppliers would actually be a good thing. It would make it that much harder for criminals to acquire a gun!

What I am hearing from pro-gun posters is that they should not have to jump through anymore hoops, even if it would help eliminate the problem of criminals getting guns! In my opinion, that is irresponsible.

[GostHacked]

In my opinion, 10-15% is still rather significant! So the idea for storing guns more safely in a secure location may help prevent 10-15% of crimes that occur from stolen guns. That would be pretty good, no?

Yes it would. It would provide criminals with a convenient once stop shopping spree.

Then there are straw purchases where someone gets a buddy to get a gun for him. And there are dealers who are shady themselves who will sell a gun to anyone who asks. They themselves are legal sellers, but they will sell to someone who isn't supposed to own a gun.

How do we get rid of the rotten sellers? Well, I have a plan. Have the government sell guns. And only the government. If you want a .45 magnum, then you buy it from the police gun-shop. This would eliminate the shady gun dealers.

Now you get to deal with shady cops. They can be bought too you know. Police should never be in charge of issuing firearms to citizens. And the police is not 'government'.

So there you have it. We get rid of crooked gun dealers who sell legal guns to potential criminals by eliminating all gun dealers and we eliminate stolen handguns by having them stored at a secure facility all the while not banning any guns and law-abiding owners still get to use their handguns for target practice, which is the only legal reason to own a handgun.

No the other legal reason for owning a gun is self protection.

And don't you think operations like Fast and Furious kind of go against everything you propose here? Why is the government involved in gunrunning while trying to restrict your rights to own firearms? Why the hypocrisy?

Edited July 27, 2012 by GostHacked

[wyly]

Your assumption that legal guns never make it into the hands of criminals is seriously flawed.

Apparently (and this is U.S. stats, I couldn't find a comparable article about Canada) 10-15% of gun crimes occur from stolen guns from law-abiding citizens.

In my opinion, 10-15% is still rather significant! So the idea for storing guns more safely in a secure location may help prevent 10-15% of crimes that occur from stolen guns. That would be pretty good, no?

I would say thefts are lower in canada as home storage requirements are more stringent here, and the majority of gun owners comply and even exceed storage requirements...

Then there are straw purchases where someone gets a buddy to get a gun for him. And there are dealers who are shady themselves who will sell a gun to anyone who asks. They themselves are legal sellers, but they will sell to someone who isn't supposed to own a gun.

How do we get rid of the rotten sellers? Well, I have a plan. Have the government sell guns. And only the government. If you want a .45 magnum, then you buy it from the police gun-shop. This would eliminate the shady gun dealers.

ya I've seen that happen who in their right mind would buy a guy for a buddy?...all transactions shouldn't need to go through a police gun shop just require all private transactions be vetted through the police allowing the police to collection a transaction fee for the paperwork and checks...hit any private sellers(not dealers) with a painful fine for bypassing this process...I knew people who bought guns for their friends because they couldn't get a permit, obviously there was a very good reason they couldn't get a permit why would anyone sell them a gun!...I had one friend who spent time in a psych ward for attempted murder(he had seriously fliped his lid), he was really pissed when he couldn't get a gun for hunting, luckily no one in our circle of friends would make the purchase for him, but that doesn't mean someone else like a future girlfriend or wife didn't...some friends did lend him their guns when hunting which I thought was crazy, I refused to go on those excursions with him...

[The_Squid]

No the other legal reason for owning a gun is self protection.

Restricted and prohibited firearms

• Attach a secure locking device so the firearms cannot be fired and lock them in a cabinet, container or room that is difficult to break into; or trigger locks
  
• Lock the firearms in a vault, safe or room that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.
  

Is it realistic to get to your handgun in time if you need it for "self protection"? Get the keys to the safe, unlock the safe, and/or unlock the trigger lock, load the weapon and then proceed to blow the burglar's head off?

Good luck with that.

Is there a quicker way to access guns that you use for self protection?

[Guest Derek L]

Making it more difficult for criminals to get handguns is not "nibbling around the edges". And it was 10-15% just from stolen guns. Even more are bought from shady gun dealers who are legal to sell but do not follow the law.

They are not my numbers.... read the article. I don't know that this is the same for Canada, but if it is, then these steps would solve a serious issue.

Where are these “shady Canadian dealers”? Obviously any store or store employee selling firearms illegally is a criminal? All gun stores product within Canada is tracked from producer, to wholesaler, to dealer to purchaser……..And said information for restricted firearms are passed onto the RCMP……been that way since the 1930s.

[Guest Derek L]

None of the pro-gun lobby here has answered the question about whether they want more lax gun regulations akin to the USA.

I have in numerous threads.......

Also, we can get rid of the shady gun-dealers in one fell swoop by require prospective gun buyers to purchase handguns through the po-po....

Again, what “shady” gun dealers……….Every store that I purchase from in person or online exceeds the laws requirements……….If gun store xyz purchases 50 Glocks, sells 35 to registered owners legally, they’d better have 15 in inventory………Or the CFO/RCMP will come knocking……….Besides, when contrasted with long guns, there’s no money in restricted firearms, so why would a gun store owner risk prison/fines/seizure of inventory?

The very rare incidents (I can think of two stores in the last 25 years) are associated with lone employees, and when numbers are crunched by the RCMP, they get nabbed.

Forcing criminals to get their guns through the black market rather than having them purchase from shady legal suppliers would actually be a good thing. It would make it that much harder for criminals to acquire a gun!

What I am hearing from pro-gun posters is that they should not have to jump through anymore hoops, even if it would help eliminate the problem of criminals getting guns! In my opinion, that is irresponsible.

The criminals are getting their guns from the black market………Your straw man on “shady dealers” is akin to robbing a bank with your own car, then asking the teller to deposit the money in your own account.

How many of the guns used in the recent Toronto shootings were legally owned?

[Guest Derek L]

Restricted and prohibited firearms

• Attach a secure locking device so the firearms cannot be fired and lock them in a cabinet, container or room that is difficult to break into; or trigger locks
  
• Lock the firearms in a vault, safe or room that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.
  

Is it realistic to get to your handgun in time if you need it for "self protection"? Get the keys to the safe, unlock the safe, and/or unlock the trigger lock, load the weapon and then proceed to blow the burglar's head off?

Good luck with that.

Is there a quicker way to access guns that you use for self protection?

Sure it is........I can obtain and load a police shotgun or boxed mag semi auto, from within my home, in under a minute.....

[Wild Bill]

None of the pro-gun lobby here has answered the question about whether they want more lax gun regulations akin to the USA.

Also, we can get rid of the shady gun-dealers in one fell swoop by require prospective gun buyers to purchase handguns through the po-po....

Forcing criminals to get their guns through the black market rather than having them purchase from shady legal suppliers would actually be a good thing. It would make it that much harder for criminals to acquire a gun!

What I am hearing from pro-gun posters is that they should not have to jump through anymore hoops, even if it would help eliminate the problem of criminals getting guns! In my opinion, that is irresponsible.

Squid, you do realize that there are very few gun stores in Canada compared to the USA? That NO pawnshops can sell handguns?

The retail market is very tightly controlled and thus much easier to track.

You are comparing apples to oranges in that area.

Also, the numbers of firearms stolen from the homes of Canadian citizens is mice nuts compared to the volumes of such weapons smuggled across the border every single day of the week. Again I ask, why should we attack the tiny portion of the problem.

We have ALREADY forced criminals to buy from a black market, for decades and decades now! What's more, that black market is entrenched and developed to where it would be the envy of a WalMart.

This is why I questioned you. Frankly, I think the reason why some folks focus on the more trivial areas of a problem is simply because its easier! Pissing off law-abiding citizens is a cheap trip. It looks good despite actually DOING little good! Anti-gun advocates get a feeling of accomplishment and some ego-boo.

Changing laws and sentences against illegal gun users is far more difficult. So it never seems to happen, because advocates keep chasing cheap and ineffective copouts.

[gunrutz]

Your assumption that legal guns never make it into the hands of criminals is seriously flawed.

Apparently (and this is U.S. stats, I couldn't find a comparable article about Canada) 10-15% of gun crimes occur from stolen guns from law-abiding citizens.

In my opinion, 10-15% is still rather significant! So the idea for storing guns more safely in a secure location may help prevent 10-15% of crimes that occur from stolen guns. That would be pretty good, no?

Then there are straw purchases where someone gets a buddy to get a gun for him. And there are dealers who are shady themselves who will sell a gun to anyone who asks. They themselves are legal sellers, but they will sell to someone who isn't supposed to own a gun.

How do we get rid of the rotten sellers? Well, I have a plan. Have the government sell guns. And only the government. If you want a .45 magnum, then you buy it from the police gun-shop. This would eliminate the shady gun dealers.

So there you have it. We get rid of crooked gun dealers who sell legal guns to potential criminals by eliminating all gun dealers and we eliminate stolen handguns by having them stored at a secure facility all the while not banning any guns and law-abiding owners still get to use their handguns for target practice, which is the only legal reason to own a handgun.

Here is the article about how criminals get guns: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Not to belittle the impacts of the 10-15% but what is that in real numbers and without a gun stolen from a legal Canadian owner how many of those murders would occur with a different weapon or with a handgun from other sources, or then a long gun? These arguments go nowhere, it is the same as saying having a gun in the home means you're more likely to be accidentally shot without considering if the gun in the home provides some protection as well. So this becomes a gun registry argument where we target a small fraction of guns used in crime and then actually prevent none all the while telling the most law abiding group of people in the country that the numbers don't count, we have to ban this and restrict that just to make people feel better.

I think our gun laws are just about right, examples of changes i could see making include making it more difficult to get a license, more stringent testing, at the same time i think restrictions upon using a firearm for home defense should be virtually none, i don't see the need to carry a hand gun, perhaps if there were psych test or intensive training programs it would be acceptable in general. But it doesn't matter what we as gun owners do or are willing to accept, there will always be people who lose their minds every time someone is shot no matter how many other people are killed by other means. Some people are simply afraid of guns period, some of us ask ourselves why the government sells us liquor when it kills lots of innocent people every year, and some of us know that bans don't work in a free society.

Nor would it make illegal guns any more illegal.

Edited July 28, 2012 by gunrutz

[Argus]

There does not appear to be a straight correlation between gun possession and homicides. As indicted in the attached chart, some nations with far lower gun possession have far, far more homicides, both with guns and without.

World Gun possession and murder

Edited July 28, 2012 by Argus

[Guest Derek L]

There does not appear to be a straight correlation between gun possession and homicides. As indicted in the attached chart, some nations with far lower gun possession have far, far more homicides, both with guns and without.

World Gun possession and murder

Indeed, the Swiss and the Nordic countries have a slightly greater rate of gun ownership, plus similar or more liberal gun laws (The Swedes and Swiss are allowed fully automatic firearms) but a drastically reduced percent of firearms related homicide……….These countries and us all share similar standards of living, similar laws and licensing, so why the difference in illegal gun crimes? The only difference I can think of, is that the Nordic countries don’t have First Nations reserves along the American border……

Edited July 29, 2012 by Derek L

[The_Squid]

Indeed, the Swiss and the Nordic countries have a slightly greater rate of gun ownership, plus similar or more liberal gun laws (The Swedes and Swiss are allowed fully automatic firearms) but a drastically reduced percent of firearms related homicide……….These countries and us all share similar standards of living, similar laws and licensing, so why the difference in illegal gun crimes? The only difference I can think of, is that the Nordic countries don’t have First Nations reserves along the American border……

What an idiotic comment. Natives are responsible for gun crime? It wouldn't have anything to do with the USA south of us and poverty more than most European nations. "it's the injuns". What a fool.

[Guest Derek L]

What an idiotic comment. Natives are responsible for gun crime? It wouldn't have anything to do with the USA south of us and poverty more than most European nations. "it's the injuns". What a fool.

I trust you've never heard of the Ahkwesáhsne nation........I see you didn’t refute the study provided by Argus though………It’s those “shady” legal gun owners and dealers though eh?

[Wild Bill]

What an idiotic comment. Natives are responsible for gun crime? It wouldn't have anything to do with the USA south of us and poverty more than most European nations. "it's the injuns". What a fool.

Squid, forgive me but do we both live on the same planet? Native reserves are the biggest channels in Canada for illegal guns. This has been documented in the MSM so much and for so long that it is truly common knowledge, like the sun coming up in the east every morning! For Pete's Sake man, don't you read much? At least do a google!

Why don't you ask the mayor of Cornwall about it? Native smugglers shot up his house!

You just got your "politically correct" button pushed by a perceived slur against Natives and you spit something out like a slot machine!

Not all natives are involved in such things, of course. However, it is only prudent if you are a native on such a reserve to keep your mouth shut!

To ignore such problems in the name of political correctness means you can never solve them.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Wild Bill

[eyeball]

What I am hearing from pro-gun posters is that they should not have to jump through anymore hoops, even if it would help eliminate the problem of criminals getting guns! In my opinion, that is irresponsible.

All I'm hearing from pro-gun posters is that mental illness is a crime. In my opinion there is nothing more irresponsible than attempting to conflate insanity with criminality.

I suppose I could be wrong and what pro-gun posters are actually saying is that responsible licenced gun owners never become mentally ill but I think you'd have to be crazy to believe that.

[wyly]

Indeed, the Swiss and the Nordic countries have a slightly greater rate of gun ownership, plus similar or more liberal gun laws (The Swedes and Swiss are allowed fully automatic firearms) but a drastically reduced percent of firearms related homicide……….These countries and us all share similar standards of living, similar laws and licensing, so why the difference in illegal gun crimes? The only difference I can think of, is that the Nordic countries don’t have First Nations reserves along the American border……

those countries have very different cultures that us it has nothing to do with a lack of first nation reserves...and before you wild claims about other countries gun laws in this case Sweden and Switzerland a quick google search would've saved you the embarrassment of being wrong...and both countries require all guns to be registered...

Sweden-[i]civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms, firearms disguised as other objects, and Armour-piercing, incendiary and expanding ammunition

-semi-automatic weapons are restricted

-hand guns are permitted in some cases but not for personal or property protection...

[/i]

sweden gun registry-

a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

-licensed firearm dealers are required44 to keep a record of each firearm or ammunition purchase, sale or transfer on behalf of a regulating authority

-licensed gun makers are required43 to keep a record of each firearm produced, for inspection by a regulating authority

-State agencies are required43 to maintain records of the storage and movement of all firearms and ammunition under their control

-

switzerland

-civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms, some automatic firearms converted into semi-automatic firearms,44 incendiary or armour-piercing ammunition, and 'expansive projectiles for handguns'

-private possession of fully automatic weapons is prohibited

-private possession of semi-automatic assault weapons is permitted under licence

-private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted under licence

-Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Switzerland are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, self-defence, and collection

-An applicant for a firearm licence in Switzerland must pass background checks which consider mental, criminal and domestic violence records

registration

-In Switzerland, the law requires that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

-In Switzerland, licensed firearm dealers are required to keep a record of each firearm or ammunition purchase, sale or transfer on behalf of a regulating authority

-In Switzerland, licensed gun makers are required58 to keep a record of each firearm produced, for inspection by a regulating authority

[Guest Derek L]

those countries have very different cultures that us it has nothing to do with a lack of first nation reserves...and before you wild claims about other countries gun laws in this case Sweden and Switzerland a quick google search would've saved you the embarrassment of being wrong...and both countries require all guns to be registered...

Sweden-[i]civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms, firearms disguised as other objects, and Armour-piercing, incendiary and expanding ammunition

-semi-automatic weapons are restricted

-hand guns are permitted in some cases but not for personal or property protection...

[/i]

sweden gun registry-

a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

-licensed firearm dealers are required44 to keep a record of each firearm or ammunition purchase, sale or transfer on behalf of a regulating authority

-licensed gun makers are required43 to keep a record of each firearm produced, for inspection by a regulating authority

-State agencies are required43 to maintain records of the storage and movement of all firearms and ammunition under their control

-

switzerland

-civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms, some automatic firearms converted into semi-automatic firearms,44 incendiary or armour-piercing ammunition, and 'expansive projectiles for handguns'

-private possession of fully automatic weapons is prohibited

-private possession of semi-automatic assault weapons is permitted under licence

-private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted under licence

-Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Switzerland are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, self-defence, and collection

-An applicant for a firearm licence in Switzerland must pass background checks which consider mental, criminal and domestic violence records

registration

-In Switzerland, the law requires that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

-In Switzerland, licensed firearm dealers are required to keep a record of each firearm or ammunition purchase, sale or transfer on behalf of a regulating authority

-In Switzerland, licensed gun makers are required58 to keep a record of each firearm produced, for inspection by a regulating authority

Different cultures? How so? As to the legality of automatic weapons in the household, you better tell the Cantons and the folks with collectors permits……….There are even Canadians will legal automatic weapons that require 12.2 and 12.3 licensing, with the key difference being such licences here are grandfathered.

[Wilber]

As Switzerland has no standing army, the great majority of 20 to 30 year olds are conscripted into the milita and undergo military training. We are different cultures.

[Guest Derek L]

As Switzerland has no standing army, the great majority of 20 to 30 year olds are conscripted into the milita and undergo military training. We are different cultures.

Again, that doesn’t confirm the point of the OP……….

[Wilber]

Again, that doesn’t confirm the point of the OP……….

So what, the point is we have different systems. The vast majority of those Swiss gun owners have had military training and it is they who are relied upon to be the country's military if it is needed.