Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Unless they can come up with methods that DO work and TODAY, not a generation from now, then I say they should get the hell out of the way and allow someone to try other methods. What methods? We know that harsh punishment doesn't work, or the US would have no crack dealers or murderers. (Detroit, smaller than TO, has had 180 murders so far this year. TO? 27) You live in your own little dream world, just as much as the people who you say think that basketball courts are the solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) The police CANNOT protect any witness who comes forth! It is certain that most if not all of those bystanders would love nothing more than to see the thugs arrested but it would be suicide to help the process. Especially when often a gang banger, immediately after being nabbed, is released on bail so he is free to go after whoever "tattled". Even if the perp IS held in custody there is no problem with his associates to find out who to "silence". Meanwhile, the next time some police spokesperson complains about witnesses not stepping forward, someone should let loose with an egg or a tomato or two. Frankly, it is a disgustingly callous approach and they should be chastized for it! ignorance reigns supreme once again in the forum, you have no clue how the police operate...the police are very good at being discrete with their sources, gangs have no idea who it is that tips off the police out of the thousands they interview...been there done that, I tipped off the cops to a drug dealer and he got 5yrs and no one is the wiser, my bro did the same sending a rapist to prison for 8 yrs and neither of us had to testify, police will drop a case before they rat on a reliable informant...this is not at all the same as asking someone to testify in court...the community is at fault for protecting the guilty... Edited July 19, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 ignorance reigns supreme once again in the forum, you have no clue how the police operate...the police are very good at being discrete with their sources, gangs have no idea who it is that tips off the police out of the thousands they interview...been there done that, I tipped off the cops to a drug dealer and he got 5yrs and no one is the wiser, my bro did the same sending a rapist to prison for 8 yrs and neither of us had to testify, police will drop a case before they rat on a reliable informant...this is not at all the same as asking someone to testify in court...the community is at fault for protecting the guilty... Well, there are plenty of quotes out there from the residents involved in the shooting themselves saying you'd be nuts to talk to the police and that people have been killed for it before. So the police definitely need to do a better job in reaching out and building bridges with these people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 What methods? We know that harsh punishment doesn't work, or the US would have no crack dealers or murderers. (Detroit, smaller than TO, has had 180 murders so far this year. TO? 27) You live in your own little dream world, just as much as the people who you say think that basketball courts are the solution. well basketball courts and a combination of other projects do work, it's no big secret active kids are less involved in crime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 well basketball courts and a combination of other projects do work, it's no big secret active kids are less involved in crime... They don't, not in a significant way. Yes, social projects are important. But way more important is giving these guys as sense that following the legit way will lead to a better life for them. Ie role models, internships, etc. Another is doing something about drugs, presumably legalize them, to remove them as an option for getting rich quick. I think a big piece is having the people who are in power set an example of how to live in an honest way. As long as the finance boys steal trillions and get away with it, are admired for it, who can blame these guys for trying to emulate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Well, there are plenty of quotes out there from the residents involved in the shooting themselves saying you'd be nuts to talk to the police and that people have been killed for it before. So the police definitely need to do a better job in reaching out and building bridges with these people. ya got details of those who talked and their shooting?...most likely an inside source with direct knowledge of the gang which they were able to deduce...or someone who publicly identified themselves as the tipster...there's no way a confidential informant can be identified by a gang...police have been doing this stuff for decades they're not going to rat out their number one tool(informants) in fighting crime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 They don't, not in a significant way. Yes, social projects are important. But way more important is giving these guys as sense that following the legit way will lead to a better life for them. Ie role models, internships, etc. Another is doing something about drugs, presumably legalize them, to remove them as an option for getting rich quick. I think a big piece is having the people who are in power set an example of how to live in an honest way. As long as the finance boys steal trillions and get away with it, are admired for it, who can blame these guys for trying to emulate them. I agree on the drug laws...role models-I dunno I was exposed to lots of criminal activity with no real role model, I made a different choice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 I agree on the drug laws...role models-I dunno I was exposed to lots of criminal activity with no real role model, I made a different choice... Most people who grow up in dire circumstances don't become killers. But if we want to reduce the killers and gangsters, we have to set them on a different path. Unfortunately just jailing them doesn't accomplish that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 ya got details of those who talked and their shooting?...most likely an inside source with direct knowledge of the gang which they were able to deduce...or someone who publicly identified themselves as the tipster...there's no way a confidential informant can be identified by a gang...police have been doing this stuff for decades they're not going to rat out their number one tool(informants) in fighting crime... http://ca.news.yahoo.com/scarborough-residents-reluctant-talk-shooting-010451328.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 no im not, if a criminal is pointing a gun at you you assume he will do as he says otherwise there is no point in doing so... Of course there's a point. The point is to make you believe he's going to kill you, so he can get what he wants. That doesn't necessarily mean he's actually going to kill you, nor is that his intention. He's using it to "persuade" you. He may have no intention whatsoever of killing you and in most cases he may not even have the nerve to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 well that makes no sense at all cyber...you're suggesting we be nice to violent offenders? the crime rates haven't falling because we're nice to criminals they've fallen because demographics have changed, the population is aging not because we're lenient or progressive with sentencing... hey ya lets give dave picton day parole...sorry no...there are lots of soft crimes where criminals can be rehabilitated but when it comes to violent criminals I don't care, these people get what they deserve and more...no pity from me, get them off the streets for 20 years... I'm not suggesting any of that. You have serious reading comprehension issues. The fallacies in your response are all over the place. You're creating false choices and strawmen. I'm against mandatory minimums for a number of reasons, but that doesn't mean I think the courts should be lenient on criminals. I'm saying sentencing decisions ought to be made by someone that hears all the particulars of any given case. People ought to have the right to have the circumstances of their situations heard and weighed every time. That doesn't mean violent, unrepentant criminals are going to be walking free. It means people with mitigating circumstances aren't going to lose years of their life in federal penitentiary because the person that hears every last detail of their situation is obliged to ignore them in sentencing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 the police definitely need to do a better job in reaching out and building bridges with these people.Police need to get more involved in their communities like they used to. The ones that walk downtown should actually be talking to people, getting to know everyone, and be genuinely pleasant. They're public servants. It's like customer service for society. Instead, we have alpha dogs who want to play with guns and belong to the biggest gang in the world. Police services look and act like a paramilitary forces these days and crushing dissent at protests certainly isn't helping their image. You reap what you sow and the cops have been sowing distrust for awhile now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Of course there's a point. The point is to make you believe he's going to kill you, so he can get what he wants. That doesn't necessarily mean he's actually going to kill you, nor is that his intention. He's using it to "persuade" you. He may have no intention whatsoever of killing you and in most cases he may not even have the nerve to do it. oh ya I'd love to hear that defense in court "I was only trying to persuade them, I didn't really mean it when I said I was going to kill them if they didn't give me their money"...when someone is holding a gun says they will kill you they've stated their intention, you take them at their word, as should the courts...there is no way to sugar coat a crime committed with a gun, it is done with an immediate assurance of death for the victim for non compliance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Police need to get more involved in their communities like they used to. The ones that walk downtown should actually be talking to people, getting to know everyone, and be genuinely pleasant. They're public servants. It's like customer service for society. it might help but at the same time I never saw a cop walking in my neighbourhood and there were no gang shootouts, the odd stabbing and lots of brawls but handguns were absent... I never even talked to a cop until I got my first traffic ticket at 20...Instead, we have alpha dogs who want to play with guns and belong to the biggest gang in the world. Police services look and act like a paramilitary forces these days and crushing dissent at protests certainly isn't helping their image. You reap what you sow and the cops have been sowing distrust for awhile now.ya they don't do themselves any favors with behavior like that, but how much of that behavior is directed by politicians... Edited July 19, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 I'm not suggesting any of that. You have serious reading comprehension issues. The fallacies in your response are all over the place. You're creating false choices and strawmen. I'm against mandatory minimums for a number of reasons, but that doesn't mean I think the courts should be lenient on criminals. I'm saying sentencing decisions ought to be made by someone that hears all the particulars of any given case. People ought to have the right to have the circumstances of their situations heard and weighed every time. That doesn't mean violent, unrepentant criminals are going to be walking free. It means people with mitigating circumstances aren't going to lose years of their life in federal penitentiary because the person that hears every last detail of their situation is obliged to ignore them in sentencing. you're offering false choices and reading more into my posts than I saying...of course there are always mitigating circumstances but where there isn't come down hard on violent offenders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) oh ya I'd love to hear that defense in court "I was only trying to persuade them, I didn't really mean it when I said I was going to kill them if they didn't give me their money"...when someone is holding a gun says they will kill you they've stated their intention, you take them at their word, as should the courts...there is no way to sugar coat a crime committed with a gun, it is done with an immediate assurance of death for the victim for non compliance... You don't get charged with murder for threatening to murder someone. You get charged with threatening to murder them. It's also an aggravating factor if you're carrying a gun and further aggravating if it's an illegal firearm. Edited July 19, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 you're offering false choices and reading more into my posts than I saying...of course there are always mitigating circumstances but where there isn't come down hard on violent offenders... And they do. Every time this comes up people fail to show a repeated and systemic problem with under sentencing. There are a handful of examples, but like I said earlier, the system allows for appeals. The Crown should be appealing crap decisions and sentencing to a higher court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/1228632--man-shot-to-death-in-north-york-schoolyard Clearly this is Rob Ford's fault. Nope. It's immigrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 eeew well done Sherlock awesome powers of logic ya got there ....there's probably a half billion knives in the country, how many illegal handguns do think there are, in the thousands at most... So you're saying that those knives got up and stabbed someone all on their own? Or was it that people used them to stab someone? Which again proves that people are the problem, not the weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) well basketball courts and a combination of other projects do work, it's no big secret active kids are less involved in crime... Its working then? Good to know, how hip deep would we be in murderers if it wasn't for basketball? It's funny, i didn't know that gang members don't play. Edited July 19, 2012 by gunrutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Nope. It's immigrants. If that's where the majority of this crime is coming from isn't it time we pull our heads out of the sand and do something about it? It is not our responsibility to fix everyone from every shit hole in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 So you're saying that those knives got up and stabbed someone all on their own? Or was it that people used them to stab someone? Which again proves that people are the problem, not the weapons. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people. But the gun sure does help. You're not going kill many people pointing your finger at someone and shouting "BANG!"" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 As a Utilitarian, you should be more concerned about the degree and scope of pain and suffering that is endured by those involved in these situations as well as the likelihood of recurrence. You can throw that in your cost-benefit analysis, and you would probably find that this whole thing is really not a big deal at all, but it is a good PR opp for the politicians. It's a big deal to the families of the victims. If I knew her email, I would forward your reply to the mother of that baby who was grazed by a bullet. I'm sure she would be impressed with your concern about the degree and scope of pain and suffering! YOU trying to make out like I"M the one who lacks concern! Unbelievable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 What methods? We know that harsh punishment doesn't work, or the US would have no crack dealers or murderers. (Detroit, smaller than TO, has had 180 murders so far this year. TO? 27) You live in your own little dream world, just as much as the people who you say think that basketball courts are the solution. Who says that harsh punishment doesn't work? Would you care to cite some links to prove your point that the US has such harsh sentences? And don't just cherry pick one or two harsh states! How about you pick New York or California? Tell us the typical sentence for a murderer or the perp of a violent crime. I'm glad you think Toronto is so wonderful for only having 27 murders so far this year. I'm curious as to how many you think is a good number. How do you feel about the trend? Is it up or down for gang violence? Or perhaps we should be happy that overall such violence appears to be decreasing. All we have to do is include stats from communities like Owen Sound and it should be easy to swamp out the numbers from Jane & Finch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Who says that harsh punishment doesn't work? Would you care to cite some links to prove your point that the US has such harsh sentences? And don't just cherry pick one or two harsh states! How about you pick New York or California? Tell us the typical sentence for a murderer or the perp of a violent crime. You are right, look at China, lower homicide rate per 100,000 people than Canada. I'm glad you think Toronto is so wonderful for only having 27 murders so far this year. I'm curious as to how many you think is a good number. How do you feel about the trend? Is it up or down for gang violence? I think we should be happy every year that we manage to bring down the homicide rate, for a good number I would say less than the year before. Or perhaps we should be happy that overall such violence appears to be decreasing. We should celebrate every little victory, I don't think we can completely eliminate violent crime, but as long as we can keep lowering the rate we should be happy. All we have to do is include stats from communities like Owen Sound and it should be easy to swamp out the numbers from Jane & Finch. I don't think it comes down to how many murders that are committed in the city, its more of where. As long as a majority of the violent crime was restricted to a specific area or a few specific locations people don't really notice the homicide rate much aside from another shooting in the news. Right now people are more worried because of such high profile locations as the Eaton Centre in which case the crimes move to the forefront because people don't feel safe because it is happening in our perceived "safe" area's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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