"Circumcision a criminal act"

[Moonlight Graham]

You overestimate how much people remember. Most people, by the time they are adults, don't remember anything from before they were about 2-4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_amnesia

That's conscious memory, of course we don't remember when we were a year old.

But our experiences as infants do profoundly shape our entire lives. Example: http://www.helpguide.org/mental/eqa_attachment_bond.htm

Edited July 5, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[Bonam]

That's conscious memory, of course we don't remember when we were a year old.

But our experiences as infants do profoundly shape our entire lives. Example: http://www.helpguide.org/mental/eqa_attachment_bond.htm

The "attachment bond" with the primary caregiver described in the article is a relationship that exists between the child and another individual on a daily basis for years. It is something that shapes the very formation of your brain structure. Of course that relationship and its effects on you are essentially hardwired into you.

In contrast, a single sensation of physical pain lasting for a short duration would not have the same effect, and would quickly be forgotten.

[Mr.Canada]

Generally Jews and Protestants get cut and Catholics do not for the men. If they try to ban it then it will go underground where potential for infection goes up. Is that what we want?

Female circumcision is a barbaric practice.

[Shakeyhands]

Generally Jews and Protestants get cut and Catholics do not for the men. If they try to ban it then it will go underground where potential for infection goes up. Is that what we want?

Female circumcision is a barbaric practice.

Interesting comments.

Funny, the same things can be said for abortion....

[Guest Peeves]

The "attachment bond" with the primary caregiver described in the article is a relationship that exists between the child and another individual on a daily basis for years. It is something that shapes the very formation of your brain structure. Of course that relationship and its effects on you are essentially hardwired into you.

In contrast, a single sensation of physical pain lasting for a short duration would not have the same effect, and would quickly be forgotten.

I agree other wise every bump would contribute to life's experience and I don't believe such could be the case anymore than that every disappointment as a child has an impact. Severe trauma might, but not a minor event, and like it or not I doubt a circumcision is memorable unless done with pinking shears. That would be a frilly dilly brit btw.

[Guest Peeves]

Interesting comments.

Funny, the same things can be said for abortion....

There are a thousand times more Muslims impacted in Germany than the relatively few Jews remaining.

[kraychik]

agreed, it's not something that can be undone, if that child rejects his parents religious indoctrination later in life how does he go about getting back that foreskin?...and damn that's got to hurt, how do they get away with inflicting that on a baby...

I'm assuming you've met circumcised men who lament having been circumcised as children and now want foreskin?

[TheNewTeddy]

Generally Jews and Protestants get cut and Catholics do not for the men.

Muslims also get the big snip as well, and the share and number of Prot's getting it is declining.

I'd back the "not until you are 18" thing.

[kraychik]

Muslims also get the big snip as well, and the share and number of Prot's getting it is declining.

I'd back the "not until you are 18" thing.

So you're arrogant enough to speak on behalf of those men who've been circumcised as their advocate? Show me some Jewish or Muslim circumcised men who now feel violated and wish that the benevolent leftists like you would have spared them from being mutilated as children. Until you can do that, your pathetic moral posturing on the behalf of others who never asked you to speak for them will ring hollow.

[jbg]

There are a thousand times more Muslims impacted in Germany than the relatively few Jews remaining.

And the fact that any Jews remain in Continental Europe or Le Belle Provence is a triumph of hope over experience.

[TheNewTeddy]

So you're arrogant enough to speak on behalf of those men who've been circumcised as their advocate? Show me some Jewish or Muslim circumcised men who now feel violated and wish that the benevolent leftists like you would have spared them from being mutilated as children. Until you can do that, your pathetic moral posturing on the behalf of others who never asked you to speak for them will ring hollow.

Not sure how "I'd back the 18 thing" is "moral posturing on the behalf of others". I'd also back keeping it as it is now. I'd back Pepsi over Dr. Pepper, but that does not mean I'm some kind of crazy evil insane anti-peppite.

[Guest Peeves]

And the fact that any Jews remain in Continental Europe or Le Belle Provence is a triumph of hope over experience.

An aside re your comment:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/01/19/honouring-a-lost-community/

The fate of Macedonia’s Jewish community during the Second World War was unique only in the thoroughness of its destruction.

Just after midnight on March 11, 1943, Bulgarian troops occupying the Yugoslav republic surrounded the three cities containing large Jewish populations. “Following what had become the standard system, this operation was carried out at a single stroke with great cruelty,” writes Leni Yahil in her seminal history of the Holocaust.

More than 7,000 Jews were rounded up and sent to the Treblinka death camp. Twelve lived.

Of a pre-war population of approximately 8,000, some 300 Macedonian Jews survived the war. Some joined the partisans. Others departed to Albania or were detained in less murderous camps than Treblinka. About 1,000 fled Bulgarian occupation to live with relatives in northern Greece, which until 1943 was occupied by Italians who declined to implement Hitler’s final solution. But this escape was temporary. The Germans took over the occupation when Italy capitulated, and the Macedonian Jews sheltering in northern Greece were sent to Auschwitz.

In the end, the Macedonian Jewish community was effectively wiped out. Today only 100 Jews remain. This presented the government of the new Macedonian state, which declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, with a dilemma. “We wanted to give respect and give properties back to the Jewish people, but there were not many ancestors of the Macedonian Jews you could give back properties to,” says Ljuben Tevdoski, Macedonia’s ambassador to Canada. Instead, a Holocaust memorial fund was established with money from Jewish properties and possessions that were stolen during the war but that could not be returned. Tevdoski was its deputy director.

The fund resulted in a Holocaust museum, which was inaugurated last March in Skopje. The small Macedonian capital now joins Paris, Berlin, Washington, and Jerusalem among cities with a museum dedicated to the Jewish catastrophe. The museum also contains exhibits on the pre-Holocaust history of Macedonian Jewry. They had lived in Macedonia since Roman times, and thrived especially after the arrival of Sephardic Jews, expelled from Spain and Portugal in the 15th century. Tevdoski, whose background is in archaeology and art history, is enthusiastic about the architecture and material culture that has been preserved.

So many similar stories from so many European countries, then the forced exodus of a million Jews from the Middle East in the mid 20th century.

[Boges]

Too bad I didn't see this thread before it was already on Page 3.

People who call circumcision barbaric behaviour need to get lives. Seriously don't you have an Israeli Apartheid protest to attend?

It's not always a religious procedure and there are benefits to having it done. It makes you're peen easier to clean and enhances sexual feeling. What are the drawbacks? A child will have no memory of it either.

I'm thinking people that say they are traumatized because their parents got them snipped have other more pressing mental problems if they're still caught up on that.

This will never happen in Germany. Germans telling Jews what to do? Didn't that happen already? Muslims also circumcise and the PC left that want this probably don't want to upset them.

Also, ironically, I imagine the people that crusade for the infant's rights against having his forskin removed would also fight for that infants mother to be able to murder him a week or so earlier in the womb.

The mother has the right to kill the kid one week but has no right to have a simple medical procedure done the next.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Boges

[TheNewTeddy]

To be honest - and this is probably going to irk both sides more than anything else I can say - I don't see this as a big deal. If they were to ban it, it would have as much of an impact on me as if they were to force all newborns to get it. I just really wouldn't much care TBH. I could back either proposal. Sorry if that upsets anyone on either side of the debate, but that's my honest feeling.

[Guest American Woman]

To be honest - and this is probably going to irk both sides more than anything else I can say - I don't see this as a big deal. If they were to ban it, it would have as much of an impact on me as if they were to force all newborns to get it. I just really wouldn't much care TBH. I could back either proposal. Sorry if that upsets anyone on either side of the debate, but that's my honest feeling.

If you don't care, why back either proposal? Why not just back letting parents of male infants decide for themselves?

[TheNewTeddy]

I back that too

[g_bambino]

People who call circumcision barbaric behaviour need to get lives. Seriously don't you have an Israeli Apartheid protest to attend?

It's not always a religious procedure...

So, you mean to say: It's not always a barbaric procedure. No, it isn't. And "barbaric" might be a bit hyperbolic. But it is indefensible on rational grounds when its done unnecessarily.

It makes you[r] peen easier to clean and enhances sexual feeling.

No it doesn't.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited July 11, 2012 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

I'm assuming you've met circumcised men who lament having been circumcised as children and now want foreskin?

I have.

[Canuckistani]

Too bad I didn't see this thread before it was already on Page 3.

People who call circumcision barbaric behaviour need to get lives. Seriously don't you have an Israeli Apartheid protest to attend?

It's not always a religious procedure and there are benefits to having it done. It makes you're peen easier to clean and enhances sexual feeling. What are the drawbacks? A child will have no memory of it either.

So which is it, people who are against circumcision are antisemites, or it actually has nothing to do with religion? I reduces senstivity of the glans, not sure how that enhances sexual feeling. If you find an uncircumcised penis difficult to clean you probably ride the short bus to school. What are the drawbacks:

Complications range in severity from the "mild:" excessive bleeding, infection (including antibiotic resistant Staphylococcus), to the severe: surgically caused genital deformity, accidental amputation, and even death. And complication rates are higher in children circumcised shortly after birth than in older children (and presumably adults also), possibly because surgery on such a small child is more intricate.

http://www.examiner.com/article/circumcision-s-complications-what-could-go-wrong Or you could call up David Reimer in Winnipeg, and ask him. No, wait, you can't, because he finally committed suicide. As for the memory, we carry memories in our body we have no conscious awareness of. Doesn't mean they don't affect us. Edited July 11, 2012 by Canuckistani

[Guest Peeves]

I don't remember the event. I think the doctor worked for tips?

Still when asked by our Jewish doc. do you want him (my son) circumcised ( I always think it should be spelled..circum sized!

I said no unless it's need is indicated for some reason.

Personally any covenant to day could be done by a symbolic act. I.E slice the tip off a weenie.

So long as the somewhat traditional ritual is followed, why get in to blood rites?

[Boges]

So which is it, people who are against circumcision are antisemites, or it actually has nothing to do with religion? I reduces senstivity of the glans, not sure how that enhances sexual feeling. If you find an uncircumcised penis difficult to clean you probably ride the short bus to school. What are the drawbacks: http://www.examiner.com/article/circumcision-s-complications-what-could-go-wrong Or you could call up David Reimer in Winnipeg, and ask him. No, wait, you can't, because he finally committed suicide. As for the memory, we carry memories in our body we have no conscious awareness of. Doesn't mean they don't affect us.

The religious reason is the reason no reasonable government will ban it. But people don't always do it because of religion.

You're a bit to fixated on people getting their wang snipped.

If it was that large a public health issue then it would be banned because it's, you know, a public health issue. Not because people think it violates the human rights of infants.

Do you have statistics that suggest how often circumcisions go wrong? 1%? 5%? 10%? Not an insignificant percentage of the population of men are circumcised so there'd be some record of a problem with having it done over the pas 5,000 years people have been doing it.

[kraychik]

I back that too

This is great, you've essentially taken every position possible in the span of one page in this thread. Initially you supported banning the practise of circumcision, then said it's no big deal and would support continuing the protection of parents' freedoms to make that choice, and then said you're comfortable not having any position on the matter one way or the other. You've essentially become a political pretzel on this. It's hilarious.

[kraychik]

I don't remember the event.

Nobody does. Canuckistani's statement about people retaining memories they're unaware of is absurd. I want to see these circumcised men who are marching for a restriction on this practise because they want foreskin. Until then, it's pretty obvious that this is just more uninvited leftist self-aggrandizement where this guy purports to be the vanguard of victims who never requested his advocacy. It's actually funny.

[g_bambino]

The religious reason is the reason no reasonable government will ban it. But people don't always do it because of religion.

If it was that large a public health issue then it would be banned because it's, you know, a public health issue. Not because people think it violates the human rights of infants.

Do you have statistics that suggest how often circumcisions go wrong? 1%? 5%? 10%? Not an insignificant percentage of the population of men are circumcised so there'd be some record of a problem with having it done over the pas 5,000 years people have been doing it.

What kind of logic is that? The professional surgical removal of a finger for cosmetic or religious "reasons" wouldn't, in itself, be a public health issue; it could be done to millions of children with as much risk to their health as a circumcision. But nobody opts to have it done to their children and no reasonable government would allow it. So, why is the removal of the foreskin a-okay? Oh, right, because "it looks better", "I had it done, so my kid should too," and "the Bible says to".

[Boges]

What kind of logic is that? The professional surgical removal of a finger for cosmetic or religious "reasons" wouldn't, in itself, be a public health issue; it could be done to millions of children with as much risk to their health as a circumcision. But nobody opts to have it done to their children and no reasonable government would allow it. So, why is the removal of the foreskin a-okay? Oh, right, because "it looks better", "I had it done, so my kid should too," and "the Bible says to".

So you're comparing someone's finger to a about a centimeter of penis skin.