The NDP base

[NewSnacks]

Has anyone else noticed how profoundly ignorant NDP supporters are about how a parliamentary democracy works? I'm 21, and my perception is of my peers, so maybe it isn't a fair generalization. However, I keep finding them astoundingly ignorant of our entire political system.

A prime minister is simply the leader of the governing party, but they don't get that. They think you vote for a prime minister.

A frequent argument I hear from them is that Harper is illegitimate as prime minister because the Conservatives didn't win over 50% of the popular vote. They seem to think that because 62% of Canadians didn't vote Conservative, that they'd have all voted NDP instead. I'm a liberal, I wouldn't vote NDP.

Many of them seem to think our system is similar to that of the US's, and they wish to emulate it. They see any deviation from the US system as undemocratic. They abhor the fact that we're a constitutional monarchy. Not for any rational reason, as all their reasons are false assumptions. They hate it because they see it as an undemocratic, un-American institution. Ironically, many of them habour anti-American feelings.

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

[BubberMiley]

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

It's just you.

[scribblet]

A prime minister is simply the leader of the governing party, but they don't get that. They think you vote for a prime minister.

A frequent argument I hear from them is that Harper is illegitimate as prime minister because the Conservatives didn't win over 50% of the popular vote. They seem to think that because 62% of Canadians didn't vote Conservative, that they'd have all voted NDP instead. I'm a liberal, I wouldn't vote NDP.

This is just an attempt too undermine a legitimately elected gov't, if the opposition wins the next election by a similar margin, it will be perfectly okay doncha know.

[waldo]

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

accepting to your broad, all-encompassing generalizations and anecdote... it's just you (oh, and it looks like MLW member, 'scribblet', as well).

[Wild Bill]

Has anyone else noticed how profoundly ignorant NDP supporters are about how a parliamentary democracy works? I'm 21, and my perception is of my peers, so maybe it isn't a fair generalization. However, I keep finding them astoundingly ignorant of our entire political system.

A prime minister is simply the leader of the governing party, but they don't get that. They think you vote for a prime minister.

A frequent argument I hear from them is that Harper is illegitimate as prime minister because the Conservatives didn't win over 50% of the popular vote. They seem to think that because 62% of Canadians didn't vote Conservative, that they'd have all voted NDP instead. I'm a liberal, I wouldn't vote NDP.

Many of them seem to think our system is similar to that of the US's, and they wish to emulate it. They see any deviation from the US system as undemocratic. They abhor the fact that we're a constitutional monarchy. Not for any rational reason, as all their reasons are false assumptions. They hate it because they see it as an undemocratic, un-American institution. Ironically, many of them habour anti-American feelings.

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

No Snacks, you're not the only one! People have been seeing this since the vote was invented. You are getting an eyeful of basic human nature.

Part of it is just youth. All of us are born the same way and our brains develop in a similar fashion. When we are young we have the ability to absorb information at a ferocious rate but it is later that the brain develops a better ability to see consequences and becomes more critical of that information.

In effect, when we are young we tend to swallow information whole and accept it as true, unless it comes from our parents, of course! :P This is why it is so important for teachers not to allow their own biases into their classroom, particularly political ones.

Jesuit teachers in the Catholic church used to say "Give me a child until the age of 7 and he is ours for life!" By this they meant that if they could control how and what a young person was taught they would be able to imbed their own ideas so strongly that for the rest of his life the child would likely never question them.

At your present age, what does your perspective say about the quality of any Canadian civics courses you were given in school? If any, were they delivered in the early grades or at the end of high school? How "in depth" were they?

Nature abhors a vacuum. If young people receive little or no Canadian information they will rely instead on whatever they pick up from other sources. Our media is full of American civic information, some of it even from Sesame Street! It is therefore not surprising that there are so many misconceptions among not just young Canadians but Canadians as a whole as to how our own system works.

As to thinking you can just total all the people who did NOT vote for Harper, this is another example of human nature. Most of us are not very good at math concepts. We can argue about whether we are born this way or our teaching is so poor in this area but it doesn't matter. A lot of people drop math as fast as they possibly can in schools, in favour of "artistic" stuff or whatever.

So they are poorly equipped to understand real world mathematical examples. Then, we must also consider that it is also human nature to see the Universe and how it works the way we WANT it to be and NOT the way it is and does!

So because they don't like the fact that Harper's party won, they twist the math!

How long have religions held beliefs as to how the world was created? All of them have been wrong in the light of every scientific discovery Man has made. You would think they would have stuck to the spiritual world and not try to argue with evidence and physics. Most have never done this. When you think about it, they are telling their God how he did everything! Perhaps because that means they can reduce the glories of the Universe to a level of their own understanding, eliminating the need to actually THINK and LEARN from the discovery of new evidence and deduction from reason!

In effect, most religions are offshoots of the "Church of the Presumptuous Assumption". Yet the fault doesn't lie in their specific religion per se but rather the way they abused it. Science has never had a conflict with religion. It has never claimed any knowledge about an afterlife or the existence of any Prime Mover. It simply tries to let Man understand how the PHYSICAL Universe began and works! Most religions over the years took the position that they already knew everything about that, leaving them vulnerable as Man discovered contradiction after contradiction.

Again, it's human nature, Snacks! An inherent arrogance that lurks within our collective soul, if you like.

I don't remember who said it but someone said that Intelligence is a mathematical constant, divided by the number of people in any group. In other words, although one would expect that the more minds you bring in to deal with a problem the better you would be able to deal with it that rarely seems to be true. The bigger the group the less intelligence it seems to possess, judging by how long it takes to make a decision and how effectively that decision actually works!

For the rest of your life, as you examine government in all its forms and all its many tentacles of departments and areas, the fact that you are asking these questions now guarantees that you will see that government ALWAYS follows the longest, least efficient and most expensive path!

That has been true no doubt since we had tribal governments when we lived in caves.

Believe it or not, this aspect of Man's nature is not all negative. There is a good argument that what appears to be so negative is actually a positive survival trait! There has been a meme in the circles that chew over these ideas for at least 60 years about what engineers call a "homeostat". In simpler words, a homeostat is a device used as a governor in a system to regulate its operation to a smooth equilibrium. You might have a steam engine that should run at a constant speed. If you sample the power at the output end and apply it as a "negative feedback" factor to the earlier stages, if the power becomes excessive the negative feedback will tell earlier stages to throttle back, bringing the output power back into line.

Social development can be like a steam engine. If left unchecked it can find itself racing faster than is safe for the society as a whole! Some change can be dangerous. We might invent muskets but not safe rifle barrels, having them blow up in our faces. Someone might invent a new way of tending crops that boosts yields in the first year but depletes the fields the next, leading to starvation.

So there is a need to have us progress in shorter, safer steps if society as a whole is going to survive with the least amount of pain. Most people who skate the edge fall off! Only a small percentage come up with a practical improvement that the tribe can then adopt as a whole.

The overall problem with human development is the same as that homeostat in the steam engine. You need the generator and the governors to be in balance to a positive operation. By this I mean that if the regulators are set to allow the engine to race too fast it might fly apart, while if set too low we get a poor level of output power.

Historically, it seems whenever we have periods of rapid advancement we follow them with long periods of much slower improvement. As a group we have too many people who cannot adapt to rapid changes, either with understanding how the Universe works or having a good-paying job when so many factories are pulling out to China.

There was a time when we put a man on the moon! The first half of the 20th century was a period of intense and rapid technological change, which dramatically improved the quality of life for millions upon millions of people. Yet today we do very little new in space and Obama has seriously slashed even that! There are hopeful signs, as with the SpaceX company and some others but nothing at the moment to equal the Apollo program. The computer revolution has become an evolution. A video card may be faster and paints more detailed pictures but it is still a video card. The Internet is becoming a mature system. It is no longer a revolutionary development but an everyday tool in our lives.

Change came so fast it became painful for more and more of the tribe! Too many people have lost their jobs and find themselves too old to be able to change or adapt yet too young to be able to retire. The stronger such factors the more they tend to resist change.

Schools and public institutions are the areas that are the furthest behind. When I was leaving high school the community college had just been invented. The idea was that you could go to a Mohawk or Sheridan College here in Ontario and be given a trades oriented education by teachers who were fresh from such industries. Companies were told that they would be receiving workers who were already largely pre-trained, reducing their costs in getting such new employees up to speed.

Perhaps that was true initially but 10 years later those "fresh from industry" teachers were still there. They were no longer so fresh. Now we find teachers that have been there for over 35 or more years. Companies have to do their own training again. The rate of change therefore is slowed.

Our homeostats always seem to be only marginally effective. Either the social engine is flying apart or we get a thousand years of stagnation, as with the Middle Ages in Europe.

So that's how I see it anyway, Snacks. An old guy's perspective on things. Make of it what you will! I give it to you in the sincere hope that you find at least some of it useful.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Boges]

None of the Chretien Liberal majorities saw a popular vote of 50% plus.

The popular vote is irrelevant in the FPTP system anyway. All these polls that show the popular vote as a reflection of how the election will go are annoying.

[Jack Weber]

Has anyone else noticed how profoundly ignorant NDP supporters are about how a parliamentary democracy works? I'm 21, and my perception is of my peers, so maybe it isn't a fair generalization. However, I keep finding them astoundingly ignorant of our entire political system.

A prime minister is simply the leader of the governing party, but they don't get that. They think you vote for a prime minister.

A frequent argument I hear from them is that Harper is illegitimate as prime minister because the Conservatives didn't win over 50% of the popular vote. They seem to think that because 62% of Canadians didn't vote Conservative, that they'd have all voted NDP instead. I'm a liberal, I wouldn't vote NDP.

Many of them seem to think our system is similar to that of the US's, and they wish to emulate it. They see any deviation from the US system as undemocratic. They abhor the fact that we're a constitutional monarchy. Not for any rational reason, as all their reasons are false assumptions. They hate it because they see it as an undemocratic, un-American institution. Ironically, many of them habour anti-American feelings.

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

Frankly,I find most people your age "astoundingly ignorant"...About just about everything that does not directly involve them!!!

But I blame this on the continuing death spiral of modern society...so..

Carry on!

[madmax]

Has anyone else noticed how profoundly ignorant NDP supporters are about how a parliamentary democracy works? I'm 21, and my perception is of my peers, so maybe it isn't a fair generalization. However, I keep finding them astoundingly ignorant of our entire political system.

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

I think its just you or the company you hang with being of a young age and not understanding Canadian Politics.

I am well aware of many Canadians who do not understand or know our political system.

That said, it sounds like you are speaking with Non Voters or those with an opinion.

Any New Democrats, Conservatives, and Libs that I speak to all seem to understand our system.

Many regular Canadians don't and again almost 50% don't vote.

[madmax]

No Snacks, you're not the only one! People have been seeing this since the vote was invented. You are getting an eyeful of basic human nature.

Part of it is just youth. All of us are born the same way and our brains develop in a similar fashion. When we are young we have the ability to absorb information at a ferocious rate but it is later that the brain develops a better ability to see consequences and becomes more critical of that information.

<MONSTER SNIP>

So that's how I see it anyway, Snacks. An old guy's perspective on things. Make of it what you will! I give it to you in the sincere hope that you find at least some of it useful.

HOLY MOLY WILD BILL.

He's only made 2 posts and you are going to scare him away with a post like that

[Tilter]

Frankly,I find most people your age "astoundingly ignorant"...About just about everything that does not directly involve them!!!

But I blame this on the continuing death spiral of modern society...so..

Carry on!

It looks that you are putting down a fairly intelligent guy who is trying to understand the FPTP concept and having (like all the intelligent people in Canada) trouble with the NDP concept that "if it ain't NDP it ain't right.

His generation, at least the ones who aren't in Montreal protesting the lack of a free ride to the scholastic diploma to which they desire, are as intelligent and as aware of the world as most of you middle aged folk.

Give him his platform--- he deserves it even if he is disillusioned enuf to vote Liberal :lol:

[Tilter]

It's just you.

No--- apparently it's just YOU

[Jack Weber]

It looks that you are putting down a fairly intelligent guy who is trying to understand the FPTP concept and having (like all the intelligent people in Canada) trouble with the NDP concept that "if it ain't NDP it ain't right.

His generation, at least the ones who aren't in Montreal protesting the lack of a free ride to the scholastic diploma to which they desire, are as intelligent and as aware of the world as most of you middle aged folk.

Give him his platform--- he deserves it even if he is disillusioned enuf to vote Liberal :lol:

It seems the Geritol hasn't kicked in for you yet...

I'm actually agreeing with him that many of his age aren't terribly clued in...

[punked]

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

It's just you.

[Tilter]

It seems the Geritol hasn't kicked in for you yet...

I'm actually agreeing with him that many of his age aren't terribly clued in...

While snickering at his ignorance

[Wild Bill]

HOLY MOLY WILD BILL.

He's only made 2 posts and you are going to scare him away with a post like that

Hey Max, it's a scary world!

Just hoping to teach a young feller where the crocodiles are hiding along the pathway...

[Jack Weber]

While snickering at his ignorance

I'm sure you think so,gramps...

[cybercoma]

If it hasn't been posted enough yet, it's just you.

[Sleipnir]

A prime minister is simply the leader of the governing party, but they don't get that. They think you vote for a prime minister.

How are you coming to that conclusion?

A frequent argument I hear from them is that Harper is illegitimate as prime minister because the Conservatives didn't win over 50% of the popular vote. They seem to think that because 62% of Canadians didn't vote Conservative, that they'd have all voted NDP instead. I'm a liberal, I wouldn't vote NDP.

Past Liberal governments have won under 50% and still got a majority - did you complain then?

It it just me? Am I the only one seeing this?

You're pretty the much the only person I see that sees it that way.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Sleipnir

[WWWTT]

His generation, at least the ones who aren't in Montreal protesting the lack of a free ride to the scholastic diploma to which they desire, are as intelligent and as aware of the world as most of you middle aged folk.

Give him his platform--- he deserves it even if he is disillusioned enuf to vote Liberal

You forgot to exclude the youth involved in OCCUPY and other environmental protests.

Or any youth that do not agree with you would pretty much cover all the bases.

WWWTT

[CPCFTW]

It's not just you. FYI all the people in this thread that are posting "it's just you" are the type of people you described in your OP. There are many NDP supporters on these forums who made the very same ridiculous arguments and insisted Canada needs to change its electoral system. They also believed in Brigette Depape's arguments that Harper did not have a mandate and that Canadian citizens should engage in civil disobedience to protest his tyranny. Go ahead and search their posts.

Edited October 31, 2012 by CPCFTW