Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 That's not what I'm getting at... Those hand guns that get into the hands of criminals were,for the most part,legally purchased at one time...I'm assuming... The fact that they can be easily puchased in large quantities is the most likley reason for the illegal proliferation of those hand guns,yes? Not in all cases………Black market, Chinese knock-offs of popular firearms (AK-47s, Glocks etc) flood that market as does theft of legal guns from lawful private owners and dealers………Again, laws aside, the legal price tag of most “desired” firearms is deterrence enough and the means in which a criminal obtain firearms are usually not by legal means……… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Who knows, but they had little restrictions on them to be so. Guess you'll be arguing for compulsory carry laws next. None of those will help you if somebody shoots you first. Nice try……You suggested that Washington State has lax laws for legal carry, but deflect on if said victims were armed………But if a criminal shoots another person first, he won’t shoot a second person or myself……Also, should police go unarmed, since if they were shot first, their sidearm’s would play little effect? Crime? I am for restrictive gun laws. They won't do that much to prevent criminals from having guns. But they'll certainly reduce all the deaths by legals guns - from kids, to people having their guns taken away from them, to the Florida shooting etc. Is Wyoming or Alaska plagued by such problems? The guy who shoots you first is more equal than you, and no matter what the power of your gun, it won't help you if you're already dead. Or are you a shoot first type person? So the police should be unarmed right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 The “States” gun laws very from State to State unlike Canada, as for the correlation between State law and crime, simply contrast States with “lax” laws such as Wyoming, Vermont and Alaska contrasted with States like California and New York that have laws similar (or more restrictive than Canada) and their gun crime rates………. You're comparing Wyoming and Alaska to New York and California? Anyways, in a way you're right, more restrictive gun laws on law-abiders isn't going to do much to curb gun crime. But I doubt CCW would either. The problem is that there exists IDIOTS who point guns at people and pull the trigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 You're comparing Wyoming and Alaska to New York and California? Anyways, in a way you're right, more restrictive gun laws on law-abiders isn't going to do much to curb gun crime. But I doubt CCW would either. The problem is that there exists IDIOTS who point guns at people and pull the trigger I think like Jack, you’re misinterpreting my comparison………Again Wyoming/Alaska have the most lax gun laws in a democratic first world nation without weekly gun rampages or look at the Swiss with their Canton Militias that see proper, fully automatic assault rifles in nearly every home and very lax private gun ownership laws, again no massive crime waves……Contrasted with California which has similar laws as we, and unlike us, considerably more (gun) crimes committed per capita……As I said, this clearly demonstrates National/State/Provincial gun laws and the inherent crime rates are an apples to oranges comparison....And said laws only afford a false sense of security in some………..As for CCW, well, enabling one to have the potential to defend themselves is better then leaving it up to the shooter to decide ones fate…..In the end, I’d rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 In the end, I’d rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6. catchy tune... but just not quite there yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 catchy tune... but just not quite there yet! I’ve no problem with Chuck Heston and/or the NRA (been a member since the 90s when I lived in the States) and even had the chance to meet his about 15 years ago in Dallas at a convention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted June 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Shootouts tend to happen in cities with at least 1.5 million people. How many cities of at least 1.5 million in Wyoming or Alaska? Wait... how many people in Wyoming and Alaska? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 The gun in this shooting was most likely illegally obtained. So no matter how many regulations one decides to put in, the criminals are always a couple steps ahead. Always have been, always will be. More restrictions may lead to less accidental deaths related to firearms. But so will proper firearms education, proper storage or firearms. Carelessness leads to injuries and death. Criminals don't give a crap about your gun laws. They don't give a crap about your laws period. So what ever restrictions you are putting on people will not ever hinder the criminal element in our society from obtaining weapons. And the comparison to farm towns to heavily urbanized cities is quite ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 That's not what I'm getting at... Those hand guns that get into the hands of criminals were,for the most part,legally purchased at one time...I'm assuming... In the US, and then smuggled across the border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Nice try……You suggested that Washington State has lax laws for legal carry, but deflect on if said victims were armed………But if a criminal shoots another person first, he won’t shoot a second person or myself The argument is inane. I'll grant you that if everyone carried a weapon crazy people going on a rampage would be quickly taken down. I'd also suggest the number of people being shot, either accidentally or on purpose would skyrocket. Every time two idiots yell at each other over a fender bender or get into a bar fight we'd see bullets flying. Every time some drunk pulls something out of his pocket, or some old lady goes fishing for something in her purse and their loaded semi-automatic (which, oops, forgot the safety) falls out someone would risk getting shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Derek should have used a better city than Casper Wy as an example... Crime rates in Casper Wyoming have been going up substantially over the past 3 years. And yes, I've been to both Casper and Compton. To compare one with the other is like apples to oranges. Try using a state like Florida with it's lax gun laws if you really want to compare apples to apples. More cities in the top 10 list for violent crimes in that state than California... http://www.delawareonline.com/interactive/article/20111002/NEWS/111090006/Violent-crime-rates-mid-sized-cities?nclick_check=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 I’ve no problem with Chuck Heston and/or the NRA (been a member since the 90s when I lived in the States) and even had the chance to meet his about 15 years ago in Dallas at a convention. hey now - I exchanged 15 sec Pan Pacific elevator pleasantries with 'Magnum'... until you now highlighted it, I had no idea he was also a big time gunner. As for Heston, I was only suggesting your catchy tune didn't measure up to his, uhhh... 5 word anthem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Shootouts tend to happen in cities with at least 1.5 million people. How many cities of at least 1.5 million in Wyoming or Alaska? Wait... how many people in Wyoming and Alaska? Really? Then what about Port Arthur, Norway, Columbine and Mayerthorpe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 The argument is inane. I'll grant you that if everyone carried a weapon crazy people going on a rampage would be quickly taken down. I'd also suggest the number of people being shot, either accidentally or on purpose would skyrocket. Every time two idiots yell at each other over a fender bender or get into a bar fight we'd see bullets flying. Every time some drunk pulls something out of his pocket, or some old lady goes fishing for something in her purse and their loaded semi-automatic (which, oops, forgot the safety) falls out someone would risk getting shot. Has that been a trend in CCW States? There is a difference between “everyone” and those that obtain a legal CCW permit, or as I suggested here, an ATC licence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Derek should have used a better city than Casper Wy as an example... Crime rates in Casper Wyoming have been going up substantially over the past 3 years. And yes, I've been to both Casper and Compton. To compare one with the other is like apples to oranges. Try using a state like Florida with it's lax gun laws if you really want to compare apples to apples. More cities in the top 10 list for violent crimes in that state than California... http://www.delawareonline.com/interactive/article/20111002/NEWS/111090006/Violent-crime-rates-mid-sized-cities?nclick_check=1 Did you read your own link? This table shows violent crimes reported to police in cities with 50,000 to 100,000 people in 2010, as compiled in the FBI's Uniform Crime Report. And from that table I didn’t see any cities from Alaska or Vermont, and Wyoming’s two largest, Casper and Cheyenne, are near the bottom for reported crimes from middle sized cities across the States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted June 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Really? Then what about Port Arthur, Norway, Columbine and Mayerthorpe? Killing Spree, Terrorism, School Shooting, Crazed Nut None of those are gang related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 hey now - I exchanged 15 sec Pan Pacific elevator pleasantries with 'Magnum'... until you now highlighted it, I had no idea he was also a big time gunner. As for Heston, I was only suggesting your catchy tune didn't measure up to his, uhhh... 5 word anthem! Indeed, Magnum actually knows how to handle a Colt 1911....As does Dirty Harry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Killing Spree, Terrorism, School Shooting, Crazed Nut None of those are gang related. So there’s more violent crime in cities then rural towns? What’s the root case of such crime? New York City has stricter gun laws than Canada, and Canada and California’s gun laws mimic each other……What does this prove? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Gun laws prevent lawful citizens from having guns. The criminal doesn't give dip shit about gun laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Unintentional Deaths & InjuriesIn 2009, firearm injuries were the cause of the unintentional deaths of 554 people.18 From 2004-2009, over 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.19 Over 1,350 victims of unintentional shootings for the period 2004–2009 were under 25 years of age.20 People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.21 A federal government study of unintentional shootings found that 8% of such shooting deaths resulted from shots fired by children under the age of six.22 The U.S. General Accounting Office has estimated that 31% of unintentional deaths caused by firearms might be prevented by the addition of two devices: a child-proof safety lock (8%) and a loading indicator (23%).23 Youth – Gun Violence & Gun AccessFirearm injuries are the cause of death of more than 18 children and young adults (24 years of age and under) each day in the U.S.40 Children and young adults (24 years of age and under) constitute over 38% of all firearm deaths and non-fatal injuries.41 In the United States, over 1.69 million kids age 18 and under are living in households with loaded and unlocked firearms.42 More than 75% of guns used in suicide attempts and unintentional injuries of 0-19 year-olds were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend.43 A 2000 study found that 55% of U.S. homes with children and firearms have one or more firearms in an unlocked place; 43% have guns without a trigger lock in an unlocked place.44 The practices of keeping firearms locked, unloaded, and storing ammunition in a locked location separate from firearms may assist in reducing youth suicide and unintentional injury in homes with children and teenagers where guns are stored.45 Many young children, including children as young as three years old, are strong enough to fire handguns.46 Dangers of Gun Use for Self-DefenseUsing a gun in self-defense is no more likely to reduce the chance of being injured during a crime than various other forms of protective action.47 Of the 13,636 Americans who were murdered in 2009, only 215 were killed by firearms (165 by handguns) in homicides by private citizens that law enforcement determined were justifiable.48 A study reviewing surveys of gun use in the U.S. determined that most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.49 A 1991 study documenting the effectiveness of Washington, D.C.’s law banning handguns (this law was recently repealed following the U.S. Supreme Court ruling finding it unconstitutional in District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008)) found that following the enactment of the ban in 1976, there was a 25% decline in homicides committed with firearms and a 23% decline in suicides committed with firearms within the District of Columbia.56 No similar reductions were observed in the number of homicides or suicides committed by other means, nor were similar reductions found in the adjacent metropolitan areas in Maryland and Virginia.57As a result of its now-repealed handgun ban, the District of Columbia had the lowest rate of youth suicide in the nation – lower than any state.58 Dangers of Permissive Carrying Concealed Weapons (CCW) LawsShall-issue laws permitting the carrying of concealed firearms (CCW) (where law enforcement has no discretion in issuing a permit or license) do not appear to reduce crime, and no credible statistical evidence exists that such permissive CCW laws reduce crime. There is evidence permissive CCW laws generally will increase crime.59 A National Academy of Sciences report reviewing existing data on the effectiveness of firearm laws, including research purporting to demonstrate that concealed carry (also called “right-to-carry”) laws reduce crime, found that the “evidence to date does not adequately indicate either the sign or the magnitude of a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates.”60 An analysis of Texas’ CCW law, (a law adopted in 1995 that overturned the state’s 125-year ban on concealed weapons), found that between January 1, 1996 and August 31, 2001, Texas license holders were arrested for 5,314 crimes, including murder, rape, kidnapping and theft.61 From 1996 to 2000, Texas CCW holders were arrested for weapons-related crimes at a rate 81% higher than that of the state’s general population age 21 and older.62 Since the Texas law took effect, more than 400 criminals – including rapists and armed robbers – had been issued CCW permits, and thousands of the 215,000 permit holders have been arrested for criminal behavior or found to be mentally unstable.63 The “largest category of problem licensees involve[d] those who committed crimes after getting their state” permits.64 Florida’s CCW system had, just in the first half of 2006, licensed more than 1,400 individuals who had pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies, 216 individuals with outstanding warrants, 128 people with active domestic violence injunctions against them, and six registered sex offenders.65 International/Comparative StatisticsThe U.S. has the highest rate of firearm deaths among 25 high-income nations.66 Another study concluded that among 36 high-income and upper-middle-income countries, the U.S. has the highest overall gun mortality rate.67 The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children under the age of 15 is nearly 12 times higher than that among children in 25 other industrialized nations combined.68 The firearm-related suicide rate for children between the ages of 5 and 14 years old in the United States is nearly 11 times higher than that in 25 other developed countries.69 Americans own far more civilian firearms – particularly handguns – than people in other industrialized nations and U.S. gun laws are among the most lax in the world.70 http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp Edited June 3, 2012 by Canuckistani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp So, you cite a anti gun lobby group made of lawyers? So if I respond with NRA statistics as a counter that’ll be ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Would you believe that Wyoming has more gun deaths per capita than California?California has 37,253,956 people and 2392 of them were killed by guns which equal 6.420 per million people in California are at risk of dying from hand gun violence. Wyoming has 563,626 people and 11 of them were killed by guns which equals 3.902 per million people in Wyoming are at risk of dying from hand gun violence. California has 66.096 times as many people as Wyoming but the odds are much greater of a person getting killed in Wyoming by gun violence than a person that lives in California. I think that is truly significant when you consider the horrendous gun violence in California associated with the drug trade in (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin, Crystal Meth and the battles to control it ie, "Gang Banging" between the Columbians, Hispanics, Mexican, African American, Aryan Brotherhood, white motorcycle and the other drug gangs. When you look at the population of 2 different places like California and Wyoming one a virtual hodgepodge of races and cultures filled with racial tension and violence and the other a virtual homogenous population of primarily rural white people. It truly seems odd that so many white people in Wyoming are killing each other. http://fed-up-with-republicans.newsvine.com/_news/2012/04/18/11266433-would-you-believe-that-wyoming-has-more-gun-deaths-per-capita-than-california Crime Statistics > Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 (most recent) by state# 1 District of Columbia: 31.2 # 2 Alaska: 20 # 3 Louisiana: 19.5 # 4 Wyoming: 18.8 # 5 Arizona: 18 http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000 Edited June 3, 2012 by Canuckistani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Gun laws prevent lawful citizens from having guns. The criminal doesn't give dip shit about gun laws. They would if they were strict enough, and strictly enforced. If being caught carrying a glock stuffed into your pants got you ten years, no parole, I'm betting way fewer people would carry them around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 http://fed-up-with-republicans.newsvine.com/_news/2012/04/18/11266433-would-you-believe-that-wyoming-has-more-gun-deaths-per-capita-than-california http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000 So clearly New York and California are safer states to live………..Does your statistics break down firearms per capita legal ownership by state and/or deaths caused by accidents? I.E. I’d assume more people die a year hunting in Northern Alaska then New York City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 They would if they were strict enough, and strictly enforced. If being caught carrying a glock stuffed into your pants got you ten years, no parole, I'm betting way fewer people would carry them around. It's not the severity of the sentence that's been shown to reduce crime, but the chance of getting caught. So it's the strictly enforced part that is important. But laws won't do much to deter gangsters. For that we need drug legalization to make a large dent in their income, as well as preventive strategies, including poverty reduction, to prevent kids form joining gangs. But absolutely there should be some significant jail time if you're caught illegally carrying a gun, and more for an illegal gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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