Your Toronto Blue Jays

[Boges]

Were people looking forward to spring training? Were you?

If you were the first day wasn't very good.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/jose-bautista-told-blue-jays-what-takes-keep-him-1.3459012

Jose Bautista sees no reason for a lot of back and forth about his contract.

The Toronto Blue Jays right-fielder said Monday he has told management what it would take to keep him, and is waiting for an answer. Bautista, who is entering the final year of his deal, is coming off a 40-homer season in which he helped Toronto to an American League East title and its first post-season appearance since 1993.

"I don't think there should be any negotiations. I think I've proved myself, and the question has been asked — what will it take — and I've given them an answer," Bautista said. "I'm not going to sit here and try to bargain for a couple dollars."

So we gonna trade Bats now? I'm gonna to assume he's now asking what a player with his production in the past should be worth going forward.

I'd like to see what he does this year before he's given a 3-5 year contract worth over 20 million.

If he's not, more or less, the same player he has been this year, he won't get a huge pay day from any team.

It's like he resents the fact that he outplayed his contract. And his contention that he "Doesn't believe in budgets" is kind of funny when you consider in 2014, he was the player that was whining that AA didn't make any significant Trade deadline moves. He must realize that a team that has several players making north of $20 million is usually not a recipe for success.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Boges

[overthere]

Were people looking forward to spring training? Were you?

If you were the first day wasn't very good.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/jose-bautista-told-blue-jays-what-takes-keep-him-1.3459012

So we gonna trade Bats now? I'm gonna to assume he's now asking what a player with his production in the past should be worth going forward.

I'd like to see what he does this year before he's given a 3-5 year contract worth over 20 million.

If he's not, more or less, the same player he has been this year, he won't get a huge pay day from any team.

It's like he resents the fact that he outplayed his contract. And his contention that he "Doesn't believe in budgets" is kind of funny when you consider in 2014, he was the player that was whining that AA didn't make any significant Trade deadline moves. He must realize that a team that has several players making north of $20 million is usually not a recipe for success.

His stats in the last several years have put in in the very first rank of hitters. He is also a very good fielder, baserunner and a team leader. He has been underpaid the last few years. Now he wants his market value. No mysteries or resentment there, not for me. He is worth $20 to $25 million per. For me, the only sticking point is how long, because of his age. I am guessing that he wants five years total $100 million. I'd give him that, but front load it with $25 million for the first three years, with club options for the last two.

Your notion of waiting through the season is kind of crazy. He won't sign at the end of the year, and if he has yet another great year the price goes up. He'd be nuts to not go to free agency, and the Jays cannot take the risk of losing him for nothing at all. He is saying put up or shut up. Shapiro went to his house and asked Joey what it would take to sign him. Joey told him. Shapiro came back with Rogers crying poor. Bats says: not my problem. And it isn't. It's Shapiros problem. If Rogers wants bums in seats, they have to pay for the reasons the bums come to those seats.

Its his last contract. He is a very good player. They pay him now or lose him. Same with Encarnacion, who is younger but IMO not as good overall as JB. They cannot afford both, so they need to trade one of them and sign the other.

Oh,and did his Tshirt at this acrimonious press availability say " Toronto is Home"?.. Love it!

Edited February 23, 2016 by overthere

[Boges]

His stats in the last several years have put in in the very first rank of hitters. He is also a very good fielder, baserunner and a team leader. He has been underpaid the last few years. Now he wants his market value. No mysteries or resentment there, not for me. He is worth $20 to $25 million per. For me, the only sticking point is how long, because of his age. I am guessing that he wants five years total $100 million. I'd give him that, but front load it with $25 million for the first three years, with club options for the last two.

Your notion of waiting through the season is kind of crazy. He won't sign at the end of the year, and if he has yet another great year the price goes up. He'd be nuts to not go to free agency, and the Jays cannot take the risk of losing him for nothing at all. He is saying put up or shut up. Shapiro went to his house and asked Joey what it would take to sign him. Joey told him. Shapiro came back with Rogers crying poor. Bats says: not my problem. And it isn't. It's Shapiros problem. If Rogers wants bums in seats, they have to pay for the reasons the bums come to those seats.

Its his last contract. He is a very good player. They pay him now or lose him. Same with Encarnacion, who is younger but IMO not as good overall as JB. They cannot afford both, so they need to trade one of them and sign the other.

Oh,and did his Tshirt at this acrimonious press availability say " Toronto is Home"?.. Love it!

I just got a Bleacher Report notification that the rumour is he's asking $30 mil for 5 years.

It's difficult to discuss baseball with you when your default position is to trade one or both of them. Sure trade EE, but for what? What's being offered? We'll never know. Bautista himself was indignant that AA didn't make a move in 2014. But what was offered? You can't trade someone without a dance partner. Hypothetical trade talk can be fun but it's not productive.

At least EE seems willing to negotiate and he's younger BUT should they sign him now, then what does that do for Bats's team chemistry should they not be able to trade him?

There's something to be said about having EE and JB in their contract year playing for $25 mill or more a year. This team is built to win this year. Tulo, Martin, Donaldson, EE and Bats can't all be making north of $15 mil for the team to be successful, they aren't the Dodgers, and even they can't seem to win a World Series. That would be almost half their payroll locked up in 5 players.

If they win the World Series this year with 2 of their top players in walk years then awesome! If not they'll have to take a step back but they still have a young pitching staff that's mostly under control.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Boges

[Boges]

Another obstacle for a trade. Both EE and Bats have 5/10 rights.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-10-and-5-rights/

Anyone with ten years of service time, of which at least the last five were spent with the same team, earns the right to veto any trade. Here we’ll look at some players who previously earned the rights; some who have earned them this season; and some who will earn them this season barring circumstances unforeseen.

Also in the case of Bautista you're trading a rent-a-player. Perhaps if the Jays are in it in July a team will take him on for cents on the dollar, but they likely will be in contention.

Another consideration is how long will he be a viable fielder, he doesn't have the gun he used.

[Big Guy]

Batista will settle for $125 million over 5 years.

[overthere]

I just got a Bleacher Report notification that the rumour is he's asking $30 mil for 5 years.

It's difficult to discuss baseball with you when your default position is to trade one or both of them. Sure trade EE, but for what? What's being offered? We'll never know. Bautista himself was indignant that AA didn't make a move in 2014. But what was offered? You can't trade someone without a dance partner. Hypothetical trade talk can be fun but it's not productive.

At least EE seems willing to negotiate and he's younger BUT should they sign him now, then what does that do for Bats's team chemistry should they not be able to trade him?

There's something to be said about having EE and JB in their contract year playing for $25 mill or more a year. This team is built to win this year. Tulo, Martin, Donaldson, EE and Bats can't all be making north of $15 mil for the team to be successful, they aren't the Dodgers, and even they can't seem to win a World Series. That would be almost half their payroll locked up in 5 players.

If they win the World Series this year with 2 of their top players in walk years then awesome! If not they'll have to take a step back but they still have a young pitching staff that's mostly under control.

My position? No, i think that is the Jays position. I doubt they feel they can afford at least $40 million per year to sign both EE and Bautista. You are talking like a fan, take off that hat which I agree would be wonderful to sign both of them. Myself and Bats are speaking to the business of baseball, niot the warm and fuzzy comfort of having anybody at any price.. And Joey has made some pertinent points. He told Shapiro a number required to sign him. Shapiro came back with some blah blah about budget and corporate structure and blahblah, Joey responds with: a) your numbers are full of turd, corps like Rogers that own the building, team and media can and do shuffle money routinely between sectors just for this reason, to negotiate better deals or try to baffle agents and players with irrelevant numbers. There is no trust.... and Why should Bats care about what Rogers wants or does? His market value is likely about $25 million, and the only real detail is the term. It is risky to sign somebody for 5 years at a time when his output would normally spin down because of age. Teams can insure big contracts against injury, but not for old age.

The question is: why do you think that is possible for the Jays t sign both? And what do they do if they cannot sign both? Why haven't the Jays signed both already to long term deals, so all can sing Kumbayah around the campfire in Dunedin on a warm spring evening?

I have no idea who Shapiro is talking to regarding trades, but you can be sure he is looking at trading at least one of them. He would be an utter fool if he didn't, both are valuable assets. Trading both would leave a huge hole in middle of their order, but having to trade one could probably be managed. There is no reason that either Donaldson or Tulo cannot be moved into the 3.4.5 holes in a mix with either JB or EE.

Batista will settle for $125 million over 5 years.

If he has asked for $30 over five years, your thought of $25 over 5 years, this is a distinct possibility.

I would also consider $30 million over 4 years.

I doubt JB will get both monster money and term from anybody($30x5), but he will get one of them for sure.

It is crazy to think that $25x5 isn't monster, but.... market forces.

.

[Boges]

I don't believe they should, or could sign both. I'm just not onside with trading either unless they get something that helps this team immediately. I don't believe there's a market for either when it's just a long-term rental likely.

Winning a championship with players in their walk year isn't unheard of. Bautista is now determined to have one of his best years ever, let the Jays benefit from that.

If he's asking for a 5 year contract, they shouldn't even considering signing him. EE is younger and not a complete curmudgeon. I think he's more willing to negotiate a bit, If given the choice I'd rather have him. Donaldson and Martin have sort of taken over as leaders of the team anyway.

[overthere]

It depends if Shapiro is willing to let EE or JB walk at the end of the season, for absolutely nothing in return.

Or trade now, when somebody will pay for a year of either player at the very top of their game.

Every day from now to the trade deadline, the value of each of those players in a trade drops.

I don't see JB as a curmudgeon. His analysis of his situation and value appears to be perfect. ' Taking one for the team' is most often media BS. Professional athletes play for money, he has been underpaid and now wants market value for his body. The Jays can pay him or trade him, same as anybody else.

If the Jays really wanted to sign everybody, why didn't they start with Price? They did not even make an offer.

[Boges]

If the Jays really wanted to sign everybody, why didn't they start with Price? They did not even make an offer.

They can't. Win or Lose the team is headed for a rebuilt of sorts next season. They have too many position players that make top salaries.

Might as well field the best lineup you can the season and having two that are playing for a contract while only help the team win. Again if Atkins/Shapiro can trade JB or EE for something that helps them win this season then awesome. But I just doubt that'll happen.

The good news most of the pitchers are locked up for awhile.

[overthere]

The bad news is that the staff as whole is unproven, and the starters are not yet set.

Stroman looks solid, and we can hope that Estrada now has a second good year in a mediocre career. Can Hutchison regain consciousness? Can Dickey fight off advanced years and be effective? Can Happ stay in th roation as a lefty starter?Almost certainly Sanchez will be tried again as a starter and if a couple of these guys pan out.... I like their staff better than any recent year.

They might have a Kansas City style triple whammy in the pen with Cecil, Osuna and Stroman.

Outfield just got more cloudy, since the Saunders for Bruce deal got canned because Saunders failed the physical.

And their budget is such that they will sign either JB or EE. Getting prospects, and they'd get some good ones, are far preferable to getting dick all in the off season. They can win without one of them this year, assuming their pitching is better.

[Boges]

The Saunders-Bruce deal fell through because of a prospect. Initially it was reported that it was Saunders but that was false

[overthere]

It is not clear who has medical issues., it has been widely rumoured that it is Saunders. Not good news right before the season starts, if it is true.

More interesting is why they would want Bruce, who is a right fielder with some power...... Maybe that is why Bautista is edgy these days, they have been working on his replacement,

Bruce makes $12 million, about $10 million more than Saunders.

[Boges]

It is not clear who has medical issues., it has been widely rumoured that it is Saunders. Not good news right before the season starts, if it is true.

More interesting is why they would want Bruce, who is a right fielder with some power...... Maybe that is why Bautista is edgy these days, they have been working on his replacement,

Bruce makes $12 million, about $10 million more than Saunders.

He's a Lefty. This team needs them especially after Navarro and Revere left.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2016/02/23/after-a-night-of-trade-rumours-michael-saunders-remains-a-blue-jay-griffin.html

Ironically, the belief is that the three-way trade was torpedoed by a failed physical exam — but not by Saunders. Bruce has a limited no-trade clause of eight teams, but the Jays are not on the list.

He could be a potential replacement for Bautista or an indication that the payroll is more flexible than we thought.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Boges

[Guest]

Despite his fanatical fitness ethic Joey Bats is getting long in the tooth. I don't think it makes sense to pay him $25 for 5, as there is a good chance he will be another Vernon Wells two seasons from now. I like JB and would like to see him finish his career in TO. Ideally, he'd take an average of $20 for 5 and be willing to start training as a first baseman or be moved to the DH spot in a couple of seasons. However, I think his confidence/arrogance and the fact that he outplayed his last contract will make it very hard to sign him to a sensible deal.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Guest

[overthere]

He has every reason to be confident, because he is an excellent player at the top of his game. It is not arrogance to want to be paid market value for your services. It is sanity.

The fact that he played better than he was paid simply means he will be paid more, much more, than previously. That is pretty normal when your value rises.

Bautista has played a lot of third base in his career, though most of his time is in the outfield. He won;t be bumping Donaldson off that position though. And he won't be playing first base or as a regular DH either. Bautista is still an excellent fielder. That does not just make him valuable to the Jays, it greatly increases his value as a free agent/trade prospect since he can easily walk into an everyday position player job in the National League.

The first base position and DH are a daily fight between Encarnacion(who must have a position in the batting order but is just an OK fielder), Justin Smoak who is the best fielder of the three and a decent power hitter, and Colabello who is a substandard fielder but an excellent hitter for average and power but with a limited resume.

[Boges]

He has every reason to be confident, because he is an excellent player at the top of his game. It is not arrogance to want to be paid market value for your services. It is sanity.

The fact that he played better than he was paid simply means he will be paid more, much more, than previously. That is pretty normal when your value rises.

Bautista has played a lot of third base in his career, though most of his time is in the outfield. He won;t be bumping Donaldson off that position though. And he won't be playing first base or as a regular DH either. Bautista is still an excellent fielder. That does not just make him valuable to the Jays, it greatly increases his value as a free agent/trade prospect since he can easily walk into an everyday position player job in the National League.

The first base position and DH are a daily fight between Encarnacion(who must have a position in the batting order but is just an OK fielder), Justin Smoak who is the best fielder of the three and a decent power hitter, and Colabello who is a substandard fielder but an excellent hitter for average and power but with a limited resume.

It'll be Smoak for Righties and Collabello for Lefties. Smoak is one of the few lefties on the team right now. If Bruce can't be traded for, Smoak will be a valuable player.

Bautista shouldn't be paid more because he signed a deal he out performed. A 6-year deal would turn into the A-Rod contract where he'll be a yoke on the team's neck by year 3. If a team is willing to give him that, God Bless him. Albert Pujols left a contending St. Louis team because they didn't meet his demands and they still won a World Series.

I'd rather see the Jays sign EE. He's not a great fielder but he's the team's permanent DH and can play first in the pinch.

[overthere]

It 's a tough call. If the Jays can only afford to sign one of them, and that is likely the case, I'd rather have Bautista simply because he is a better player all around. Their offensive stats are almost the same last year, but Bautista is better over his career, and he is a much better fielder than EE.

Bats is 35, EE is 33.

Bautista should be paid more because that is his market value compared to other players in the MLB. There not many comparators because he is that good.

EE also deserves and will get a substantial raise from somebody.

It seems a problem, but it is the kind of problem many teams would like to have: too much offence.

[Guest]

JB isn't arrogant because he is trying to max out his pay cheque, that's just his personality. I like him and would love to see him finish out his career in TO, but management will be kicking themselves in a couple of years if they pay him anywhere close to what he's asking.

He is a solid but declining fielder. Despite his fitness regime, I predict that in a couple of seasons he'll be a better fit at first or DH. Given his personality I expect Joey will take exception to being moved to a less athletic position.

If it takes $25+ to get him, maybe they take a shot at the Series this season and then ship him out while there are still buyers.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Guest

[overthere]

JB isn't arrogant because he is trying to max out his pay cheque, that's just his personality. I like him and would love to see him finish out his career in TO, but management will be kicking themselves in a couple of years if they pay him anywhere close to what he's asking.

He is a solid but declining fielder. Despite his fitness regime, I predict that in a couple of seasons he'll be a better fit at first or DH. Given his personality I expect Joey will take exception to being moved to a less athletic position.

If it takes $25+ to get him, maybe they take a shot at the Series this season and then ship him out while there are still buyers.

Not sure what you mean. He is under contract his season to the Jays for $14. If they haven't signed him by the end of training camp, like in the enxt month he'll play out his contract and become a free agent then. There won't be any buyers then, because they can just sign him diorectly and the Jays will get nothing for him at all. The only logical choices for the Jays are to sign him now, or trade him now. It is grtesque to get nothing for an asset that valuable, tough that is certainly a possibility. Before the Jays do that though, they need to cut down every large tree in the neighbourhood of Rogers.... because the lynch mob will form for Shapiro.

[Guest]

Not sure what you mean. He is under contract his season to the Jays for $14.

I'm saying $25 or more is too much for JB, yet he reportedly asked for $30. If it takes $25+/year to get an extension inked, I think it would be smart to trade him quickly while he still has value and there are teams willing to take him. Take a shot at the series and then hopefully flip him for some younger talent.

Though, if they can sign him for less it would be nice to see him finish up as a Jay.

[overthere]

Baseball is ruled by stats, and compared to his peers and by every measure Bautista is worth a least $25 million per annum. The question is not that, it is for how long, and will he take fewer years/less money than $150 million overall, or both?

One again, you don't understand the situation. If they keep Bautista this season to take a shot at a World Series, his contract is over. He can go anywhere he wishes with no compensation at all to the Jays. A free agent.

The Jays have the choice of signing him now, trading him now, or getting nothing for him at the end of 2016.

[Guest]

Baseball is ruled by stats, and compared to his peers and by every measure Bautista is worth a least $25 million per annum. The question is not that, it is for how long, and will he take fewer years/less money than $150 million overall, or both?

One again, you don't understand the situation. If they keep Bautista this season to take a shot at a World Series, his contract is over. He can go anywhere he wishes with no compensation at all to the Jays. A free agent.

The Jays have the choice of signing him now, trading him now, or getting nothing for him at the end of 2016.

I'm saying if they sign him now at $25+ they should trade him soon after this season. He will already be worth less than his contract and soon be an albatross, so get rid of him while there is still interest.

[Boges]

I'm saying if they sign him now at $25+ they should trade him soon after this season. He will already be worth less than his contract and soon be an albatross, so get rid of him while there is still interest.

Who's taking a 36+ year old player that's guaranteed $25 mil or more a year? And for what?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Boges

[Guest]

Who's taking a 36+ year old player that's guaranteed $25 mil or more a year? And for what?

Teams like the Yankees and Red Sox have been known to dramatically overpay for stars, but I agree there won't be too many takers. Just unloading his contract for a middling prospect of some sort will be a front office win if the Jays pay him $25 or more.

I'm fine if he plays this year at $14 and leaves for the highest bidder, but I feel like the Jays will pay too much to sign him before the year is done.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Guest

[Boges]

I'm fine if he plays this year at $14 and leaves for the highest bidder, but I feel like the Jays will pay too much to sign him before the year is done.

I am too. Bautista playing for a contract will only help this team win this year. After this season the team needs to shed some expensive contracts anyway. He's also an RFA so a team that does pay him $30 mil a year for 6 years will also have to give up a pick.