Your Toronto Blue Jays

[overthere]

Some pretty big ERAs in their starters.....and a couple of retreads in Happ and Chavez. It is a risky rotation, for sure. Happ might make the rotation? I don't think the Jays would spend $36 million unless he was an integral part of it. I'd put him at #3, behind Stroman and Estrada. And they really needed a lefty.

With an unchnaged offence, if the Jays can get average season out of all their starters they might be all right. But they need a couple more arms in their bullpen, and don't have any or much money left.

[Boges]

Happ went 7-2 with a 1.85 ERA and a 1.026 WHIP when he was with the Pirates last year. I'm not saying he's David Price, but those are comparable numbers to what Price did for us as a rent a player.

So we got Stroman, Estrada, Dickey, Happ and either Hutch, Chavez or Sanchez.

It's not a terrible starting rotation, it's pretty good.

And there's no evidence to say that they won't be the best offence in baseball again this year.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Boges

[Boges]

With an unchnaged offence, if the Jays can get average season out of all their starters they might be all right. But they need a couple more arms in their bullpen, and don't have any or much money left.

So if either Hutch or Chaves can round out the rotation, then you have Cecil, Sanchez and Osuna to make any close game a 6 inning affair. That's how the Royals won the World Series. Not by paying starting pitchers $30 mil a year for the rest of the decade plus.

In hindsight, Cecil getting injured in Game One of the ALDS is probably the main reason the Jays couldn't make it to the World Series this year.

[overthere]

Their bullpen is still weak, they need a couple more arms assuming everybody they have now plays well.

[Boges]

Price goes to Boston for 7 years and $217.

Price isn't worth that.

Hope he gets shelled when the Jays see him again.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Boges

[Big Guy]

Price should get about 30 starts a season if he stays healthy.

That means that he will get $1,000,000 for every game that he starts.

And some parents force their kids to become doctors, lawyers or teachers!

[overthere]

Yeah but it is much easier to become a teacher etc than to be an ace major league pitcher. And Prices value drops to nada overnight if we all stopped being entertained at the same time.

[Boges]

Jays fans are ridiculous. Price's agent says he would have gone back to the Jays to stir things up. Of course didn't say how much it would have cost the Jays to keep Price.

Assuming a payroll of $150 mil a starting pitcher making $30 mil is crippling.

Everyone is whining about how cheap Rogers is. Just look at the Dodgers and how a huge payroll can help them win a title. Now they're down Grienke who took at $35 million/year contract from an average Diamondback team.

I'm hoping the Jays can land someone but this FA market is ridiculous. AND being a sports fan as long as I have, I've come to realize teams that build through Free Agency often don't win titles.

[overthere]

Prices agent was acting under orders from Price to take a dump on Toronto.

His feelings are hurt by the Jays not offering anything, but Price is wily enough to trashtalk via proxy..

[Boges]

And EE's agent tells the Boston Globe that if he doesn't get an extension before Spring Training he'll enter Free Agency.

If the Jays aren't contending this coming season, EE will probably be traded before the end of next season anyway.

[overthere]

And EE's agent tells the Boston Globe that if he doesn't get an extension before Spring Training he'll enter Free Agency.

If the Jays aren't contending this coming season, EE will probably be traded before the end of next season anyway.

That would be pretty much insane on the part of the Jays.

His trade value drops dramatically as soon as the season starts. If they wait until late in the season they'll get nothing for him because he becomes a rental player. His value is at its highest right now, at the end of a fine season offensively.

The Jays have to choose between him and Bautista most likely. Both are getting a bit old, both are coming off great years. Bautista is a much better fielder and runner, a guy who can take right field just about anywhere in MLB as well as hitting in the heart of any lineup.

And EE is fairly one dimensional....... great power hitter but an average fielder at best.

When a team has some success, usually with a championship, the p[layers want to get paid by somebody. And EE is leveraging that into what will be the final big deal of his career, actually the only big contract. Maybe looking for $15 to $17 million for 5 years? He will get it somewhere, but not from the Jays so they might as well get what they can now. The Jays are unique in that they can afford to lose either EE or Bats, but not both.

Bautista is more problematic at age 35 but playing like he is in his prime. The Jays cannot go both long and big money for him, so they might have to give him $20 million per for 3 years to re-sign. Or maybe they trade Bats, sign EE as the cheaper but longer guy, and move Pompey or Saunders into the lineup.

[Boges]

A need has been addressed!

Drew Storen from the Nat's for Ben Revere.

He was the Nat's closer before the Nat's brought in Jonathan Papplebon, which turned out horribly. Like chocking Bryce Harper horribly.

The Jays have Saunders and Pompey to fill in for Revere so this certainly fills a need without just creating another hole.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Boges

[overthere]

Having Pompey/Saunders fills the hole in left field, which is not that difficult since Revere is pretty average fielding, with a substandard arm.. But filling the hole he leaves at leadoff is another matter. Revere is a hit factory and steals bases. Donaldson and Bautista are RBI monsters, but you gotta have somebody on base to make that work.

Saunders can steal a base too, but he is not a hit machine like Revere. And Pompey has not yet proven he is a major league hitter. Goins has some of the tools, Pillar too. The leadoff role might be done by committee until they settle on one.

But it is a decent move by the Jays overall, they badly need bullpen help and Storen looks strong. I really like that he has solid experience as a closer, becausee.... I know this is heresy.... but I am not yet convinced with Osuna as our closer. Too many bad things happened late last season late in games.... So Storen is a good option if Osuna falters, and is a fine pitcher in any case. Perhaps now they will move Sanchez down the order a bit so he pitches more long relief instead of one inning, we need that badly too.

Haven't heard anything yet about Edwin E. The closer we get to spring training, the less he is worth in a trade.......If he starts the season without a contract, that is amplified.

[Boges]

Having Pompey/Saunders fills the hole in left field, which is not that difficult since Revere is pretty average fielding, with a substandard arm.. But filling the hole he leaves at leadoff is another matter. Revere is a hit factory and steals bases. Donaldson and Bautista are RBI monsters, but you gotta have somebody on base to make that work.

Saunders can steal a base too, but he is not a hit machine like Revere. And Pompey has not yet proven he is a major league hitter. Goins has some of the tools, Pillar too. The leadoff role might be done by committee until they settle on one.

But it is a decent move by the Jays overall, they badly need bullpen help and Storen looks strong. I really like that he has solid experience as a closer, becausee.... I know this is heresy.... but I am not yet convinced with Osuna as our closer. Too many bad things happened late last season late in games.... So Storen is a good option if Osuna falters, and is a fine pitcher in any case. Perhaps now they will move Sanchez down the order a bit so he pitches more long relief instead of one inning, we need that badly too.

Haven't heard anything yet about Edwin E. The closer we get to spring training, the less he is worth in a trade.......If he starts the season without a contract, that is amplified.

Osuna will compete with Storen for the closer role. Osuna was fine as a set up guy last year as well. They need to stretch him out anyway, he should be a starter eventually. Getting Storen frees Sanchez up to become a starter now. The back end of the bullpen is pretty strong now. If Sanchez make the rotation then you have Chavez or Hutch in the Bullpen. Those are solid options.

I'm reading the Jays are looking to deal Dickey, but for what?

A lack of a leadoff hitter is not a huge problem. Goins, Pillar, Travis, Pompey? Tulo again? All could do it if they improve their OBP. It'll sort itself out in Spring Training.

I don't hear anyone saying EE is going to be traded, it's his contract year. I've read that Shapiro/Atkins want to keep EE and Bautista. Who's the DH if they trade EE? Collabello? Perhaps but this is their window season. Should they fail this year then some stars will be off the team in 2017 and that'll clear up payroll.

[overthere]

Osuna will compete with Storen for the closer role. Osuna was fine as a set up guy last year as well. They need to stretch him out anyway, he should be a starter eventually. Getting Storen frees Sanchez up to become a starter now. The back end of the bullpen is pretty strong now. If Sanchez make the rotation then you have Chavez or Hutch in the Bullpen. Those are solid options.

I'm reading the Jays are looking to deal Dickey, but for what?

A lack of a leadoff hitter is not a huge problem. Goins, Pillar, Travis, Pompey? Tulo again? All could do it if they improve their OBP. It'll sort itself out in Spring Training.

I don't hear anyone saying EE is going to be traded, it's his contract year. I've read that Shapiro/Atkins want to keep EE and Bautista. Who's the DH if they trade EE? Collabello? Perhaps but this is their window season. Should they fail this year then some stars will be off the team in 2017 and that'll clear up payroll.

The Jays don't have much in the way of long relief, I don't see Chavez as much better than average, and have no faith at all in Hutchison in any role at all. They now have some quality in one inning guys: Osuna, Soren, Sanchez and Cecil all do admirably. Their need in the bullpen is the same as it was: long relief, a reliable guy to go a few innings- and it would really help a lot if he was a lefty.

Revere will be easy to replace in the field, but there is no obvious replacement now on the roster at leadoff. Candidates, certainly.

Of course EE is on the block....... Budget constraints aside, and he will want and get far more money from somebody than he gets now- EE himself has dialed up the pressure. He wants the lifechanging contract, and he'll get it with term and money at age 32. He wont' talk contract after spring training starts, so his value diminishes steadily because the Jays can't sign him, they cannot even do a sign and trade. I don't care if nobody in the press is talking about trading him, you can bet the Jays are running all scenarios and that is one of them. Of course Shapiro wants to keep everybody that is good, but you don't always get what you want especially when you have a budget and also have to sign Joey B.

The Jays have many more options in the power part of their order, it is a rare luxury in baseball. Bautista can bat cleanup, Tulo could do it , Donaldson can bat anywhere 2 through 4 or 5, the Jays have Colabello as an option and they may just platoon Cola and Smoak at 1B and DH since that worked very well last year. The Jays don't even really need any power at DH, which opens up many options.

Don't think you'll get many takers for Dickey at $12 million, I thought they might buy him out in November for $1 million but no.... If they deal Dickey I hope it for a quality lefty in the pen.

[Boges]

You don't spend money on long relief. There are plenty of options. Who remembers the mid-inning relievers on great teams? You remember the starters and the lock-down talent at the end.

Shapiro and Atkins have been obsessed with increasing the depth of pitching on the team. They have options now. Cecil, Storen and/or Sanchez and/or Osuna is the type of back end relief you see with other contenders. Remember Cecil got hurt in Game 1 of the ALDS, imagine how different the playoffs go if they have him to bail out the likes of David Price in playoff games.

Revere didn't even start as the lead-off man on this team when they were winning at an 80% clip. Just don't make Tulo the lead-off man and I'm fine with it. It's not something anyone should lose sleep over. There are people who think that having a speedy guy as the lead-off man isn't even the best option, why not have your best hitter get the chance to hit the most in a game (which the lead off hitter gets)? In that scenario Donaldson would be the lead-off man.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2015/3/25/8124365/leadoff-hitters-the-book-declining-production

I'm not bothered with them trading EE, as long as they get more quality pitching help. Who knew Revere was on the block? I don't think the team is hurt by letting EE play his contract year with the team.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Boges

[overthere]

I don't think the team is hurt by letting EE play his contract year with the team.

I'm not sure how it helps the Jays to lose him to free agency for nothing.

[Boges]

I'm not sure how it helps the Jays to lose him to free agency for nothing.

You assume he won't sign with the Jays.

You keep saying a players need to be traded. Well maybe no one wants 32 year old DH that's looking to get paid or not willing to give what up what he's worth.

It shouldn't be an indictment on the current regime if he isn't traded.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Boges

[overthere]

You assume he won't sign with the Jays.

You keep saying a players need to be traded. Well maybe no one wants 32 year old DH that's looking to get paid or not willing to give what up what he's worth.

It shouldn't be an indictment on the current regime if he isn't traded.

Yes, it would be the near complete waste of a valuable resource. That is always an indictment: to mismanage a resource that your own team has had the patience to develop into a very good player with plenty of value.

32 is certainly not old for a DH. And EE has shown he can produce, and has had solid, consistent productive stats for the last four years. He is no Estrada or Colabello or Travis or Osuna or Stroman or......, who look good but have little history

I don't assume anything, I just don't see either his name on a contract now , or an imminent trade for him. The deadline is not October 2016, it is a few weeks away. It would be crazy to get nothing for him in these circumstances,or not to sign him. You cannot let him walk for nothing at all.

[Boges]

What would you say he's worth? Is there no price to low to trade EE for because he may be gone next season.

Their window kind of closes at the end of this season so losing EE for nothing still frees up salary to develop someone else.

[overthere]

I don't understand what you mean.

EE has said he won't negotiate after training camp starts. That means he is intending to go to free agency, and the Jays have a few weeks to sign him .. His trade value declines sharply from then, as teams know the Jays have no choices since he won't be signing anywhere. But his value as a player does not decline, just the return the Jays can expect.

So they have to sign him now, or trade him now. Or they get nothing for him other than his play this season. I don't think there are many successful teams that get there by not getting value for assets, and EE has developed into a valuable asset in the last 4 years of his career.

Top level DHs can and do earn $15M per year on multi year contracts, and EE is at the top of his game right now. Which of course he and Shapiro both know...... EE will be looking for $15M per year on four years, and likely with team options after that. Similar to Ortiz in Boston.

I'd be delighted if the Jays sign him, I just don't think they can or will afford both him and Bautista.

[Boges]

Yeah if he could trade EE now, I'd support that IF the Jays could get a starting pitcher in return.

[overthere]

I'd take anybody decent if they cannot sign him. Because any decent player can be turned into another decent player.

[Boges]

AA took a position as the VP of Baseball Operations with the LA Dodgers.

Talk about an ego, take a demotion across the continent instead of having to answer to Mark Shapiro.

[overthere]

There is an equal chance that his leaving TO is as much a comment on Shapiro as it is on Anthopoulos.

Sooner or later we will hear which it was.......

I think the timeline is instructive.......

Toronto is basically floundering under Beeston and AA for years. The owners have spent a load of money under AA, and the team is underperforming, again. Beeston does nothing really, has no purpose and they owners blunder badly in trying to dump him in the offseason. The Jays start 2015 with more underperforming, and AA is now really running the whole show. Beston waits to leave in fall 2015, with little involvemnt.

Midseason, it all changes on the field. But.... the owners have already reached out to Shapiro, the deal is done. Shapiro no doubt would have fired AA as soon as he started if the Jays had not had a miracle turnaround, the first time in AAs career that they have looked like this.

So does Shapiro come here and become Beeston, a spectator to the AA show? No. Does AA want to step back and start taking orders, be cut off from ownership, be a subordinate? NO. Something has to give, somebody has to go and it won't be Shapiro. And the owners have to go along with that.

It must have been sobering for AA that it took this long to get a job..........But LA has buckets of money to spend on players.......