Quebec student strike

[August1991]

IMV, there are two key observations that I have taken from this Quebec student strike and IMHO, they are relevant to the world outside Quebec.

First, democracy (as in 50% +1) can be hijacked. A small, organized group can take control of an agenda and then claim that the vote is "democratic". In my mind, democratic votes must be secret, scheduled and infrequent. A civilized society must protect the minority against the majority. This is most important when a small group claims to be the majority.

People increasingly don`t bother to vote. In municipal elections, voter turn out is typically around 20%. Even in modern mass elections, Bush Jnr, Harper and Obama succeeded because they managed to motivate a base.

I fear that in the future, democracy will become a method for a well-organized group to hijack a vote, and the agenda.

--

Second, however sliced, this Quebec strike/boycott is ultimately about transfers. Should many, rich older people give money to fewer, poor younger people? IMV, this is the opening salvo in a much greater struggle about how to share the State's tax/borrowing powers.

My first response would be that parents should make this transfer to their kids, within the family.

Second response? Well, the family contract no longer really exists. And some adults have no kids - but expect other kids to pay taxes/contribute to pensions to care for them in old-age.

------

IMV, this Quebec student strike is like the political mess in Greece. Too many old people expecting a State cheque, and too few young people willing to write it.

Bureaucrats would refer to this as a bunfight.

Edited May 14, 2012 by August1991

[Signals.Cpl]

IMV, there are two key observations that I have taken from this Quebec student strike and IMHO, they are relevant to the world outside Quebec.

First, democracy (as in 50% +1) can be hijacked. A small, organized group can take control of an agenda and then claim that the vote is "democratic". In my mind, democratic votes must be secret, scheduled and infrequent. A civilized society must protect the minority against the majority. This is most important when a small group claims to be the majority.

People increasingly don`t bother to vote. In municipal elections, voter turn out is typically around 20%. Even in modern mass elections, Bush Jnr, Harper and Obama succeeded because they managed to motivate a base.

I fear that in the future, democracy will become a method for a well-organized group to hijack a vote, and the agenda.

Second, however sliced, this Quebec strike/boycott is ultimately about transfers. Should many, rich older people give money to fewer, poor younger people? IMV, this is the opening salvo in a much greater struggle about how to share the State's tax/borrowing powers.

My first response would be that parents should make this transfer to their kids, within the family.

Second response? Well, the family contract no longer really exists. And some adults have no kids - but expect other kids to pay taxes/contribute to pensions to care for them in old-age.

------

IMV, this Quebec student strike is like the political mess in Greece. Too many old people expecting a State cheque, and too few young people willing to write it.

Bureaucrats would refer to this as a bunfight.

http://www.givemebackmyfivebucks.com/2012/05/10/why-quebec-students-need-to-stop-striking/

[dre]

IMV, this Quebec student strike is like the political mess in Greece. Too many old people expecting a State cheque, and too few young people willing to write it.

Wow, this is actually about right. As I said before this is about inflation - The cost of things like food, energy, medical care, and college tuition are rising much faster than wages. People dont like it when that happens

[August1991]

Wow, this is actually about right. As I said before this is about inflation - The cost of things like food, energy, medical care, and college tuition are rising much faster than wages.

Inflation?

----

I am surprised by the number of people who have said to me - in various ways - that students should not graduate with horrendous debt (as it happens in the "uncivilized" US, as one Montréalais said to me). And yet, at the same time, these same people explain that the Quebec government debt is too large.

Yet, how is "Quebec government debt" different from "Quebec student debt"?

I sometimes favour Quebec independence, like Camille Laurin, because it would mean adulthood.

Edited May 16, 2012 by August1991

[August1991]

Wow, this is actually about right.

Dre, this has nothing to do with inflation.

In the case of Quebec, there is somethng uglier going on. Aside from the language issue (French colleges are generally on strike, English colleges not) or even the "soft" subject issue (arts, social students are on strike, engineering, science, business not).

----

The State has the power to transfer money. In what direction, to whom, will the money go?

Some young people in Quebec want the money to go to them. They are not willing to write a cheque for their elders.

Uglier? Kids from rich families want the State to pay because their parents won't.

Edited May 16, 2012 by August1991

[-TSS-]

I read an article on the Quebec student-riots on the Economist and as that paper is heavily biased one must take its writings with a pinch of salt. However, it said that the population in general in Quebec are turning against the students especially as giving up the student fee hikes would mean tax-hikes as the province has promised to cut its budget deficit.

[jacee]

The Charest government, abandoning any hope of negotiating a settlement with striking students, announced it is suspending classes in colleges and universities where students are still on strike.

...

But Mr. Charest made it clear he was not backing away from the planned tuition fee hike for this fall and promised a tougher approach to ensure classes can resume in August, with stronger police intervention to guarantee access.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/quebec-eyes-emergency-legislation-as-charest-suspends-classes-in-response-to-strikes/article2435203/?service=mobile

It's pretty clear that Charest never had any intention of good faith negotiation with students. (I should have put a question mark at the end of the thread topic.)

It's also pretty clear that there is still majority support for the strike among students.

And it's clear that faculty support students too, and Charest fears them walking out too.

I think a violent crackdown on students is going to backfire on Charest.

This is not going to go well.

Edited May 17, 2012 by jacee

[Fletch 27]

Jaycee, I think you mean that thiere is still "Majority support for the strike among the striking students"....

The Charest government, abandoning any hope of negotiating a settlement with striking students, announced it is suspending classes in colleges and universities where students are still on strike.

...

But Mr. Charest made it clear he was not backing away from the planned tuition fee hike for this fall and promised a tougher approach to ensure classes can resume in August, with stronger police intervention to guarantee access.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/quebec-eyes-emergency-legislation-as-charest-suspends-classes-in-response-to-strikes/article2435203/?service=mobile

It's pretty clear that Charest never had any intention of good faith negotiation with students. (I should have put a question mark at the end of the thread topic.)

It's also pretty clear that there is still majority support for the strike among students.

And it's clear that faculty support students too, and Charest fears them walking out too.

I think a violent crackdown on students is going to backfire on Charest.

This is not going to go well.

[g_bambino]

Jaycee, I think you mean that thiere is still "Majority support for the strike among the striking students"....

Exactly. The striking students never constituted more than a third of post-secondary students in the province and public opinion polls (as unreliable as they are) have consistently showed a clear majority viewing the protest with disfavour.

[jacee]

Jaycee, I think you mean that thiere is still "Majority support for the strike among the striking students"....

A recap ...

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/08/quebec-student-votes-show-massive-rejection-of-tuition-deal

Widespread rejections of a tentative agreement that was supposed to bring an end to the tumultuous confrontation over university tuition increases in Quebec, now in its 13th week, flowed fast and furious Tuesday.

In fresh vote results, students in medicine, architecture and comparative literature at the Universite de Montreal all rejected the government offer. So did students in the humanities department at the Universite de Sherbrooke.

ALL STUDENTS participated in the vote to reject the government's offer.

The vast majority of students, by their votes, have effectively given the student unions - their elected representatives - a mandate to continue protesting/negotiating on their behalf.

Some students are striking. Some are protesting and also attending classes.

There is absolutely no doubt that student protesters still have majority support among their members.

There was a work refusal by faculty at a college this week, in response to police violence against strikers. I expect Charest is worried about the student strike expanding to a faculty walkout.

However, if he thinks he's going to end or even contain the strikes with force of law ... he may be disappointed.

Legislation - law - against protests can only be implemented via police violence against protesters.

It's not going to go well.

Edited May 17, 2012 by jacee

[TimG]

ALL STUDENTS participated in the vote to reject the government's offer.

What percentage of students actually voted?

[jacee]

What percentage of students actually voted?

As per the article, voting was conducted within each faculty. I haven't seen that information, nor have I seen any suggestion that the vote wasn't valid.

[August1991]

It's also pretty clear that there is still majority support for the strike among students.

That is simply false.

To start with, it is only about 30%-40% of students who have participated in the strike and even fewer are still on strike. Most students in Quebec have completed the winter term normally and have written the final exams.

Student strikes are largely a phenomonen of French language colleges/universities in Montreal, and the so-called "soft" faculties. Colleges/universities elsewhere and English schools never voted to strike or voted only for strikes of a few days.

At issue right now is whether a 50% + 1 vote by a raised hand has the power to force a college/faculty to shut its doors. Charest's special law will make that illegal, with presumably strong penalties.

----

As to Charest's support in the general population, polls show that about 70% or so support the government's position. Indeed, that is partly a problem. The opposition has accused Charest of using this issue to garner support.

[TimG]

As per the article, voting was conducted within each faculty. I haven't seen that information, nor have I seen any suggestion that the vote wasn't valid.

Valid?. What if 10% of the students show up to vote and 50% of those decide to reject the offer. A majority representing 5% of the student body is hardly a ringing endorsement and it is bad journalism not to include the percentage that voted with the results and naive for you to post the results without the percentage voted. Edited May 18, 2012 by TimG

[jacee]

Valid?. What if 10% of the students show up to vote and 50% of those decide to reject the offer. A majority representing 5% of the student body is hardly a ringing endorsement and it is bad journalism not to include the percentage that voted with the results and naive for you to post the results without the percentage voted.

I haven't seen any indication of that in the media.

Do you have a link to support anything you say?

Students overwhelmingly voted against the government's 'offer'.

[August1991]

Do you have a link to support anything you say?

Here, and look carefully at the list:

Plusieurs associations étudiantes ont rejeté l'entente de principe conclue samedi avec le gouvernement.

Rejet de l'entente de principe :

Collège de Bois-de-Boulogne

Cégep Marie-Victorin

Cégep de Valleyfield

Cégep de Saint-Laurent

Cégep de Saint-Hyacinthe

Association des étudiants au D.E.S.S. en arts, création et technologie de l'Université de Montréal

Association des étudiants du département des littérature de langue française de l'Université de Montréal

Département d'informatique et de recherche opérationnelle de l'Université de Montréal

Association des étudiants en sociologie de l'Université Laval

Association des étudiants en études québécois de l'Université de Trois-Rivières (AEEQ)

Association des étudiants en littérature de l'Université Laval

Association des étudiants en géographie de l'Université Laval

Association des étudiants en langues et en communication de l'UQAM

Adoption de l'entente de principe :

Cégep de la Gaspésie et des Îles (n'était pas en grève)

R-C

It is the names missing from this list, as well as the list itself, that explains the situation.

A Papal Bull.

Radio-Canada (CBC), as too often the case, fails to report the whole story. No mention of how the votes were conducted.

Edited May 18, 2012 by August1991

[jacee]

Http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec-students-band-together-to-take-on-charest/article2436399/?service=mobile

Quebec government says it's open to avoiding legislation through negotiations

The Quebec government says it is now open to negotiating a deal with the students despite tabling legislation that will crack down on protestors.

Courchesne was reponding to demands made earlier by students calling for a negotiated settlement.

Students with opposing views banded together earlier on Thursday in an effort to urge the Quebec government to negotiate a settlement to the strike by post-secondary students rather than adopt specia legislation.

They were backed by Parti Québécois Leader Pauline Marois, as well as Quebec Solidaire, Option Nationale and independent members of the National Assembly, who warned the Premier Jean Charest that he will have a heavy political price to pay for what they call a "repressive" bill.

...

The students each wore a red, white or green square that defines them – red for protesters on strike, green for those who want to go back to class and white for those who want a moratorium on tuition-fee hikes.“You can clearly see it here today. Regardless of the colour of squares we carry, regardless of the political parties, today is not a time to play partisan politics,” said Léo Bureau-Blouin, president of the federation of college students. “Parliamentarians were elected to ensure social peace...we are open to compromises, we are open to discussions.”

Edited May 18, 2012 by jacee

[TimG]

Students overwhelmingly voted against the government's 'offer'.

And I say that vote is a meaningless without the voter participation stats. It is like you are trying to make a point using a poll result but refuse to provide the sample size. If you want to use that 'vote' to support the point you are making then onus is on you to provide those participation numbers.

[jacee]

I don't care. You do.

All of the students were represented today, demanding that the government negotiate with them. (See above).

They all know that the legislation Charest is tabling will increase tensions.

Interesting article here about the elders and teachers supporting the protesters.

Http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/17/where-are-the-grown-ups-in-the-montreal-student-strike-check-the-front-lines

[TimG]

All of the students were represented today, demanding that the government negotiate with them. (See above).

A few rabble-rousers that represent a tiny minority of students are trying to stroke their egos by getting the government to talk to them. Edited May 18, 2012 by TimG

[August1991]

I don't care. You do.

La-la-la... je n'écoute plus....

LE NOUVEAU MOI

À partir d’aujourd’hui, je vais joindre leur lutte et adopter leurs stratégies et leur vision du monde, empreinte de compassion et de générosité.

Les feux rouges ? Fuck, je les brûle.

La TVQ ? D’la marde, je ne la paie pas.

La taxe municipale ? Dans l’cul, monsieur le maire.

L’impôt ? Are you kidding me ? J’ai déjà assez de la misère comme ça à payer les mensualités de ma télé 3D.

Quant à ma facture d’hydro-électricité, je la trouve trop élevée. J’aimerais luncher avec Thierry Vandal et lui présenter une contre-proposition.

L’autre jour, je suis allé dans un resto à Longueuil.

« Que désirez-vous commander ? m’a demandé le serveur.

— Tout, ai-je répondu. De toute façon, je ne paierai pas car je considère que manger est un droit fondamental. Et si vous n’êtes pas content, je vais casser votre vitrine. Ça va faire, les capitalistes qui s’engraissent au profit des gens qui ont faim… »

Richard Martineau

[jacee]

A few rabble-rousers that represent a tiny minority of students are trying to stroke their egos by getting the government to talk to them.

Believe whatever you like ... or you could read the news.

[jacee]

Charest loses ground to students in poll

A poll conducted Thursday night by Forum Research found that Quebecers were split on the special law, with 40 per cent approving the Charest government’s handling of the crisis, down from 45 per cent in a Tuesday Forum Research poll

Support for the students’ side rose between Tuesday to Thursday from 33 per cent to 36 per cent

And while the Monday poll gave Charest’s Liberals a minority government with 60 seats, the tables have turned, with the PQ back in the lead with a 60- seat win.

Those approving the special law were older, non-francophones, Liberals, CAQ supporters and r Quebec City residents, Forum Research said. Those against were younger, in the $80,000 to $100,000 income range. They support the PQ, Québec solidaire and the Green Party.

It appears that the introduction of a harsh law aimed at preventing student protests is not helping Charest politically and support is shifting to students.

[Fletch 27]

Jaycee, Im sorry but its seem you simply "dont get it"... Not all of the students are protesting! Its 1/3rd of them! And reducing! The Majority of the student (im not sure what point in a democracy you dont "get") want to finish thier school year and move on to careers! This Minority of violent protesters in impacting them Majority!

PLEASE!! Have a look at this ..... http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/16/masked-protesters-hunt-for-scabs-in-montreal-university-classes/

Shame on you

[jacee]

For some students, tuition costs simply are not an issue because their parents pay so to me, the fact that some students oppose the protests is irrelevant because they are not the ones affected.

However, ALL students - red, white, green - have demanded that the government negotiate instead of criminalizing the protests. ALL were represented yesterday, and I wouldn't be surprised if ALL hit the streets if this law passes.

It's an entirely new context now. Imo, Charest will succeed only in mobilizing ALL students, not in squashing protest but in re-energizing protest.

Quebec’s anti-protest legislation tramples basic rights: legal experts

On Friday, the Quebec Bar Association warned that it had “serious concerns” about the law’s constitutionality. “This bill, if adopted, is a breach to the fundamental, constitutional rights of the citizens,” the bar association president, bâtonnier Louis Masson, said in a statement.

“The scale of its restraints on fundamental freedoms isn’t justified by the objectives aimed by the government.” He was referring to the bill’s most controversial elements:

* Section 16, which says that police has to be informed eights hours ahead of the time, duration and route of any demonstration by 10 or more people or more. (Friday morning the government appeared ready to increase that number to 25.)

* Section 17, which says that organizers or even a student association taking part in the march without being its organizer, must make sure that the event complies with the parameters handed to police.

“The government is making it harder for people to organize spontaneous demonstrations. It is a limit on freedom of speech,” Mr. Masson said.

It's not about the fines. It's about the freedoms.

The government and some posters here don't get it: Student union leaders are elected spokespeople - messengers to/from students. They are not 'bosses' who can 'order' students to protest here-not-there, then-not-now, this way-not-that way.

Protesters operate independently: They don't follow 'orders' of "organizers". Criminalizing "organizers" will only ensure that there are no "organizers", and will only increase the anarchy.

Edited May 18, 2012 by jacee