Abortion revisited

[Black Dog]

In a way it doesn't matter, since I would never advocate denying a woman an abortion because she's had one before. I just wanted to look it up for myself, and was shocked to see how common repeat abortions are. I do think we can do better here. I'm for abortion because I see it as the lesser of two evils, but would rather we prevent it as much as possible. Not least because of the psychological effects it has on many women.

Um, what? There's no conclusive evidence directly linking abortion to subsequent mental health problems.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Black Dog

[Guest American Woman]

In a way it doesn't matter, since I would never advocate denying a woman an abortion because she's had one before. I just wanted to look it up for myself, and was shocked to see how common repeat abortions are. I do think we can do better here. I'm for abortion because I see it as the lesser of two evils, but would rather we prevent it as much as possible. Not least because of the psychological effects it has on many women.

Like you, I was curious, too, and it doesn't affect my stand on the issue, either.

I don't think the repeat abortion statistics are all that surprising, though. As I said previously, since it's mostly older women having second or third abortions (and keeping in mind that 3rd abortions constitute less than 9% of abortions), suggesting that years pass between the abortions, and keeping in mind that contraceptive use isn't a guarantee against pregnancy, it stands to reason that there would be women having repeat abortions.

[Canuckistani]

Um, what? There's no conclusive evidence directly linking abortion to subsequent mental health problems.

Maybe talk to a few women who've had one. I don't know why you call it mental health problems - it's distress. A sense of shame or guilt and a lot of regret. In other words, if they had been able to prevent that abortion by contraception, it would have not nearly the same impact on them.

[Black Dog]

Maybe talk to a few women who've had one. I don't know why you call it mental health problems - it's distress. A sense of shame or guilt and a lot of regret. In other words, if they had been able to prevent that abortion by contraception, it would have not nearly the same impact on them.

I've talked to a number of women who've had abortions and they tell me they have experienced nothing of the sort. While the process itself was unpleasant, none regretted the choice because it was the right thing for them. Not everyone is going to have the same reaction and the notion that women who do have abortions are traumatized as a result is just more B.S. from the anti-choice lobby.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Black Dog

[Guest American Woman]

Maybe talk to a few women who've had one. I don't know why you call it mental health problems - it's distress. A sense of shame or guilt and a lot of regret. In other words, if they had been able to prevent that abortion by contraception, it would have not nearly the same impact on them.

What about women who used contraceptives and still ended up with an unwanted pregnancy? And what about the impact on the men who are involved in the unwanted pregnancy? - Do you think any of them have a sense of shame or guilt or experience a lot of regret?

At any rate, I'm sure there are women who have had some emotional distress as a result of an abortion, but I don't doubt that there are some women who have had emotional distress over adopting their baby out, too, as well as some who have had emotional distress over their decision to give birth and keep the baby.

[Canuckistani]

What about women who used contraceptives and still ended up with an unwanted pregnancy? And what about the impact on the men who are involved in the unwanted pregnancy? - Do you think any of them have a sense of shame or guilt or experience a lot of regret?

At any rate, I'm sure there are women who have had some emotional distress as a result of an abortion, but I don't doubt that there are some women who have had emotional distress over adopting their baby out, too, as well as some who have had emotional distress over their decision to give birth and keep the baby.

I'm not making an argument against abortion. I'm making an argument against abortions that could have been prevented. That would mean better education, better access to contraceptives including the morning after pill, whatever we can do to keep abortion as low as possible.

[Black Dog]

I'm not making an argument against abortion. I'm making an argument against abortions that could have been prevented. That would mean better education, better access to contraceptives including the morning after pill, whatever we can do to keep abortion as low as possible.

You won't get no complaint from me about improving sex ed and access to contraception (two things also bitterly opposed by anti-choicers). But I don't see how abortion is anything but another means of birth control and what is so wrong with that.

[Canuckistani]

You won't get no complaint from me about improving sex ed and access to contraception (two things also bitterly opposed by anti-choicers). But I don't see how abortion is anything but another means of birth control and what is so wrong with that.

It's killing. I only support it because the alternatives are worse, not because I think it's not a big deal. We have to balance harm. Which is why I support limits on abortion on demand - say 20 weeks.

[Black Dog]

It's killing. I only support it because the alternatives are worse, not because I think it's not a big deal. We have to balance harm. Which is why I support limits on abortion on demand - say 20 weeks.

Again, you have to demonstrate why such limits are necessary when 90 per cent of abortions in Canada take place before 13 weeks. Other than making you feel better about supporting abortion, it would have next to no practical implications.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Black Dog

[Canuckistani]

Again, you have to demonstrate why such limits are necessary when 90 per cent of abortions in Canada take place before 13 weeks.

It's not a burning issue for me, and opening up the debate would probably just cause a mess. I would just like to see it codified, so there isn't some drift to late term abortions that aren't really necessary. So if the debate does get re-opened, there's my position.

[Guest Manny]

Apparently the Foetus contains a great many stem cells. Good for the harvesting?

[bush_cheney2004]

...I don't think the repeat abortion statistics are all that surprising, though. As I said previously, since it's mostly older women having second or third abortions (and keeping in mind that 3rd abortions constitute less than 9% of abortions), suggesting that years pass between the abortions, and keeping in mind that contraceptive use isn't a guarantee against pregnancy, it stands to reason that there would be women having repeat abortions.

Could be the case, but I suspect such scenarios also involve gender selection by abortion. This is certainly an issue in several other nations / cultures in which male babies are preferred, and it also occurs in North America. Nevertheless, the "right to choose" includes reasons as shallow as the sex of the fetus, which may require at least 12 weeks of gestation to determine using conventional methods.

[Guest American Woman]

Again, you have to demonstrate why such limits are necessary when 90 per cent of abortions in Canada take place before 13 weeks. Other than making you feel better about supporting abortion, it would have next to no practical implications.

Since 10% occur after 13 weeks, there's your reason.

Furthermore, it sounds as if abortion statistics in Canada are far from accurate. Private clinics aren't required to report abortions, and the statistics don't always include all of the provinces and territories.

[cybercoma]

Having 20 is very costly to the person and to the community.

How so? Is it costly to the person and the community for them to use condoms (which are only 60% effective as contraceptive) or the pill? Edited May 31, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

So you think its ok to have abortions instead of using a condom and/or birth control pills.

I didn't say that. I said it is birth control and it's the woman's choice whether or not she wants to be pregnant and give birth. What I think is ok or not is irrelevant.

Edited May 31, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

The first time. Its ok to say I screwed up, I'm pregnant and I cannot afford or do not want the baby, but then they do it again, and again, and again and you guessed it once again. At some point someone has to step in and inform them that its cheaper and easier to put on a condom, use birth control pills or any other means.

That's all fine, but that still doesn't give you the right to say someone has to remain pregnant when they don't want to. I hope you're aware that women were having unsafe abortions before it was legal because someone that doesn't want to be pregnant will find a way to not be pregnant.

[cybercoma]

It's a medical procedure

It can be done in a doctor's office. You make it sound like it's a complicated procedure. It's not, unless the placenta has embedded itself (usually after 12 weeks).

[cybercoma]

Any evidence this is happening in a statistically significant way? In other words: is this even a problem?

Does it matter at all if it is?

[cybercoma]

Sometimes it is worth remembering that at one time, we were all a fetus.

Why? If you want to use that reasoning, Paul Bernardo was a fetus at one time too.

[cybercoma]

Yes it is, its simple enough for a women to go and get an abortion, and no getting a condom is simpler but thats the point. I know women who have had multiple abortions because their boyfriends don't like using a condom. Its irresponsible and stupid women who expose themselves to this repeatedly, you don't think there are those who seem to think these people exist but trust me they do, and they are not ashamed to explain why they have had 2,3 or 4 abortions.

The boyfriend doesn't use a condom and the woman is irresponsible and stupid? Nice. I guess we can see why you don't give a crap about women's rights. You're biased against women.

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman, on 31 May 2012 - 02:00 PM, said: It's a medical procedure

It can be done in a doctor's office. You make it sound like it's a complicated procedure. It's not, unless the placenta has embedded itself (usually after 12 weeks).

I make it sound like it's exactly what it is - a medical procedure.

[Guest American Woman]

Could be the case, but I suspect such scenarios also involve gender selection by abortion. This is certainly an issue in several other nations / cultures in which male babies are preferred, and it also occurs in North America. Nevertheless, the "right to choose" includes reasons as shallow as the sex of the fetus, which may require at least 12 weeks of gestation to determine using conventional methods.

I suspect a very small number of them might be due to gender selection, but I don't see evidence that it's a big problem here. Most people who immigrate here want to escape some of the negatives of the culture they left behind. The gender is less important here, for example, where couples aren't limited to the number of children they can have.

As I've said before, I do believe there should be limitations on when abortions can be performed without a medical reason.

[bush_cheney2004]

I suspect a very small number of them might be due to gender selection, but I don't see evidence that it's a big problem here. Most people who immigrate here want to escape some of the negatives of the culture they left behind. The gender is less important here, for example, where couples aren't limited to the number of children they can have.

Not a big problem, unless you are the wrong gender fetus! Lower birth rates may add preference for gender, and this is the latest strategy to attack "abortion rights". This will also be futile politically because any restriction is seen as the beginning of the end for unlimited access to abortions, even when such limits are "reasonable". The only practical limits are imposed by doctors refusing to do the procedure for such reasons, or the lack of access to abortion services.

As I've said before, I do believe there should be limitations on when abortions can be performed without a medical reason.

See above.

[betsy]

http://www.abortionincanada.ca/welcome.html

I support easy access to abortion, with no restrictions within a certain time limt - 20 weeks say, But, we need to do a better job of education to prevent so many repeat abortions.

Thank you for the information/sources.

The information that you linked to states that older women are more likely to be having repeat abortions, which would indicate that young women aren't having abortion after abortion rather than using contraceptives. Furthermore, the info says that only slightly more than 8% of repeat abortions are a third abortion. And of course some of these women did use contraceptives; contraceptives aren't foolproof, and some have a higher success rate than others. The information presented also doesn't tell how much time has elapsed between abortions, suggesting to me, that since older women are more likely to be having repeat abortions, a few years have passed between their first and second or third abortion.

Again, I don't see the information as supporting the scenario that was presented; I don't see it as supporting the idea that young women are having abortion after abortion rather than using contraceptives.

That article was dated 2005. Here is one that's dated 2011.

Opinion: Abortion statistics show reality of a land without restrictions

Special to National Post Mar 7, 2011 – 5:01 AM ET | Last Updated: Mar 7, 2011 11:19 AM ET

Comments Email Twitter inShare.3.By Anastasia Bowles

Abortion is a topic few Canadians want to discuss, and abortion statistics rarely come up around the water cooler. So when an Ontario group, Project for an Ontario Women’s Health Evidence-Based Report (POWER), released a study last week on Ontario abortion rates for 2007, nobody seemed to notice. But they should have.

No matter what your position on abortion, the study reveals unsettling facts about abortions in Ontario, and by extension, in Canada. For example, we learn that for every 100 babies born in Ontario, 37 are aborted.

The ratio for teens aged 15-19 is even more shocking. For every 100 babies born to Ontario teens, 152 are aborted.

The study noted that teens “were by far the most likely of any age group to have an abortion rather than a live birth.” And since it excluded abortions for girls under 15, the teen abortion rate is even higher.

It also revealed disturbing data about repeat abortions in Ontario hospitals. As many as 52% of women had one or more previous abortions. Even more disturbing, almost one fifth of teens aged 15-19 said they had already had at least one abortion. The study even cautioned that the percentage of repeat abortions was likely higher due to under-reporting.

And that’s just for hospitals. Abortion clinics were excluded from the repeat calculations even though they perform more than half the province’s abortions. And teens don’t need parental consent for clinic abortions (though they may at some hospitals), so more teens may go to clinics.

LifeCanada, a national organization educating on the value of human life, has commissioned Environics to poll Canadians annually from 2002-2009. Each year, a large majority, anywhere from 60% to 66%, supported some legal restrictions on abortion.

So even though most Canadians don’t know the facts or statistics on abortion, they don’t support the current legal vacuum in Canada. Imagine if they actually knew something about the subject.

more...

http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/03/07/opinion-abortion-statistics-show-reality-of-a-land-without-restrictions/

Edited May 31, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Support for abortion is going down. Surprisingly, according to a news report, more young people joined the last March for Life (2012). They came by the busloads. Stumbling on this new report below, there is hope.

Abortion's new debate generational

By: Harold Jantz

In American Grace, Robert Putnam and David Campbell's survey of how religion influences politics in America, the writers relate that on the question of abortion, approval seems to be trending downward.

Young people, they say, "are more ambivalent about abortion than their parents' generation." Even if they would allow for abortions, the circumstances in which abortion might be approved are fewer. Why is that?

Part of the reason is simply that today's young people know more. We in Canada know what that is about. Recently, when counsellors within some ethnic communities observed gender selection was happening after pregnancy ultrasounds and more girls than boys were being aborted, they properly sounded a warning.

Those were real children being rejected purely on grounds of their gender. We know it is no problem to recognize the gender of the child in the womb.

And much more can be known as well. The writers of American Grace pick up an illustration from the Oscar-winning movie Juno in which the central teen character becomes pregnant. She calls an abortion clinic and "cheekily" says, "I would like to procure a hasty abortion."

She doesn't follow through with it. The turning point for her comes when she meets a classmate outside the clinic, there to protest what's happening inside. The friend tells Juno the baby already has fingernails. "It has fingernails?" the young mother-to-be asks. She can't erase the thought from her mind and ends up leaving the abortion clinic.

The authors of American Grace say many young couples now take ultrasounds of their babies-to-be. "Both of us have had many friends and relatives display ultrasound photos and never once has an expectant mother used the impersonal word 'fetus' to describe what we are seeing. Ultrasounds are pictures of their baby-to-be."

It is this knowledge and more that is weakening the support for abortion.

More...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/westview/abortions-new-debate-generational-150274235.html

Edited June 1, 2012 by betsy