Harper takes over 'energy projects' decisions

[Shakeyhands]

What about the argument that sending so much oil to China is irrational because of the military threat they pose to us?

We'd better stop buying all the crap that is manufactured in China then too... Walmart is not going to like that!

[cybercoma]

When you come up with a way of controlling the risk of earthquakes, let me know. Until then I'll stick to the things I can control.

Well, there is one way to control earthquakes.

[cybercoma]

Now you are being delusional.

How is he being delusional? Maybe it wasn't you specifically, I don't feel like going back to check, but there are many "conservatives" on this forum that are enamoured with spending all of the taxpayers' monies on war machines to protect against the Chinese boogeyman. Many of those same people, at least those with similar political ideologies, also get all alarmist about the urgency with which we need to export our oil to China. How do you reconcile those things?

[mentalfloss]

How is he being delusional? Maybe it wasn't you specifically, I don't feel like going back to check, but there are many "conservatives" on this forum that are enamoured with spending all of the taxpayers' monies on war machines to protect against the Chinese boogeyman. Many of those same people, at least those with similar political ideologies, also get all alarmist about the urgency with which we need to export our oil to China. How do you reconcile those things?

With hypocrisy?

Edited April 25, 2012 by mentalfloss

[Wilber]

That is my point. You choose to live in a earthquake prone area. You chose to accept that risk. Given that you choose to accept that risk why do you think you have any business telling Alberta that can't ship its oil through BC ports because of a small additional risk of an oil spill which CAN be managed with proper regulation?

Because I have to accept the risk of earthquakes where I live, I also have to accept any risk Alberta and the Federal government choose to impose on me. If I don't, I'm screwing my brother. Do you read some of the crap you post?

The oil shipped from Alaska to Washington is domestic oil, produced, refined and consumed in the US and Canada. It is being used to meet US needs, not raw product exported for the purpose of making one state rich at the expense of others.

Maybe one of these pipelines can happen but not before BC's concerns are addressed and certainly not because it is rammed down its throat by a PM who's constituency is in the heart of the oil patch.

[fellowtraveller]

I am in favour of the pipeline but I think this is a fair comment. Alberta needs to share the royalties from the oil sands with BC. I am sure that an acceptable formula could be worked out if the parties agree to the principal.

would you also agree to a tariff being paid for every rail car and truck that passes through every province on the way to every other province?

How about airspace, why should anybody pass over for free?

[jacee]

would you also agree to a tariff being paid for every rail car and truck that passes through every province on the way to every other province?

How about airspace, why should anybody pass over for free?

How about we leave it up to BC to negotiate whether a pipeline goes through/tankers go out, etc, and on what terms?

Alberta oil trying to stomp its big footprint all over BC is BC's problem.

Albert oil's aggressive and rude ATTITUDE, however, is Alberta's problem as it's really turning people off and interfering with any possibility of success.

And that's a good thing, imo!

[jacee]

How is he being delusional? Maybe it wasn't you specifically, I don't feel like going back to check, but there are many "conservatives" on this forum that are enamoured with spending all of the taxpayers' monies on war machines to protect against the Chinese boogeyman. Many of those same people, at least those with similar political ideologies, also get all alarmist about the urgency with which we need to export our oil to China. How do you reconcile those things?

Funny that eh?

'Red China' 'red menace' :angry: ohwait! ... '$$$markets$$!!!

[fellowtraveller]

How about we leave it up to BC to negotiate whether a pipeline goes through/tankers go out, etc, and on what terms?

OK, and in the meantime you ackowledge Albertas right to block the TransCanada and Yellowknife highways, and tear up CN and CP rail lines while those discussions ensue. Is that your Canada?

I am also still waiting for your outrage over the thousands of oil tankers that deliver all oil products to the people and industry of Quebec and Ontario from the Middle East and Venezuela. That oil also moves around central Canada by pipeline. Would you support Quebec turning off the tap until Ontario agrees to tariffs? if not why not?

Oh, and just to avoid some embarassment for you, Alberta does not own any of the oil in any of the pipelines

Edited April 25, 2012 by fellowtraveller

[fellowtraveller]

I'm just trying to square the notion that in addition to preparing for the day they invade us we have to ship them all the resources they need to do so.

I'm not sure how a 'Yellow Peril' comment from racist Australia circa 1961 got on this website, but there it is.

[Wilber]

OK, and in the meantime you ackowledge Albertas right to block the TransCanada and Yellowknife highways, and tear up CN and CP rail lines while those discussions ensue. Is that your Canada?

One tiny insignificant point which seems to have escaped you and Tim. Those highways and railways were built at the request and in cooperation with Alberta, not in spite of and with no consideration for Alberta's concerns. But go ahead, do that and see where it gets your economy.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Wilber

[cybercoma]

Because I have to accept the risk of earthquakes where I live, I also have to accept any risk Alberta and the Federal government choose to impose on me. If I don't, I'm screwing my brother. Do you read some of the crap you post?

Funny how TimG only cares about community, working together, and "bortherhood" when it comes to already rich people making more money, but doesn't give a crap when it actually comes to helping those in need.

[Wilber]

Funny how TimG only cares about community, working together, and "bortherhood" when it comes to already rich people making more money, but doesn't give a crap when it actually comes to helping those in need.

For me, this isn't about who gets rich. I don't have a problem with that. It's about what it could cost me.

[fellowtraveller]

One tiny insignificant point which seems to have escaped you and Tim. Those highways and railways were built at the request and in cooperation with Alberta, not in spite of and with no consideration for Alberta's concerns. But go ahead, do that and see where it gets your economy.

I guess you didn't catch the heavy dose of sarcasm in my post, maybe you need some sensitivity training.

And how do you think the thousands of kilomters of existing pipelines that crisscross provinces including BC were built? By force? By extortion?

Yep, with cooperation between provinces.

We don't do tolls in Canada for interprovincial shipment of goods and services. Now or then.

We do pay landowners for the use of their property, like pipleines or compressor stations. Always have.

[eyeball]

OK, and in the meantime you ackowledge Albertas right to block the TransCanada and Yellowknife highways, and tear up CN and CP rail lines while those discussions ensue. Is that your Canada?

Wasn't separation pretty much what Alberta proposed when defending it's oil from being nationalized? Where the hell does Alberta get off thinking it now has some right to force the movement of it's oil across a nation that was otherwise told to eff off?

Oh, and just to avoid some embarassment for you, Alberta does not own any of the oil in any of the pipelines.

Yes, and it's particularly hilarious how much is owned by other countries with the smarts to have nationalized their own oil industries decades ago.

What should be particularly galling to British Columbians is that the resource most threatened by Alberta's filthy oil are the fish and oceans that Ottawa is responsible for.

The irony that Alberta's oil is Alberta's but BC's fish are Canada's just goes to show how retarded your Canada really is.

[Wilber]

I guess you didn't catch the heavy dose of sarcasm in my post, maybe you need some sensitivity training.

And how do you think the thousands of kilomters of existing pipelines that crisscross provinces including BC were built? By force? By extortion?

Yep, with cooperation between provinces.

We don't do tolls in Canada for interprovincial shipment of goods and services. Now or then.

We do pay landowners for the use of their property, like pipelines or compressor stations. Always have.

Maybe so because this is such a sensitive subject. The difference is that those pipelines served BC's interests. The proposed pipelines do not. Their environmental risk puts BC's economy in danger for little reward. The problem here is that Harper's actions have made it pretty clear that cooperation is not required in his world. As I have said before, the main concern here is the tanker traffic, not the pipelines. Tankers don't travel through Alberta and the only tankers on the east coast are there to serve the needs of the eastern provinces, not Asia's.

[eyeball]

I'm not sure how a 'Yellow Peril' comment from racist Australia circa 1961 got on this website, but there it is.

Hey, why don't you bite me. My grand-daughter is Chinese and her other Grandparents are in Canada because they believed we actually stood for guarding against tyranny instead of catering to it.

If your sig line is supposed to imply you speak for Canada I'm explicitly saying you're full of crap.

You sound like someone who's actually speaking for their portfolio of stocks in oil, arms manufacturing and I wouldn't be surprised if your not also heavily invested in Chinese sweatshops.

[TimG]

For me, this isn't about who gets rich. I don't have a problem with that. It's about what it could cost me.

My objection is the pipelines cost you nothing. The environmental risk is small and can be managed. Your expectation that their should be zero risk is irrational and completely unacceptable in a society where being good neighbors is supposed to mean something. Edited April 25, 2012 by TimG

[TimG]

Funny how TimG only cares about community, working together, and "bortherhood" when it comes to already rich people making more money, but doesn't give a crap when it actually comes to helping those in need.

These pipeline is about generating the jobs and royalty revenue from Canadian resources. I already stated that Alberta needs to share the royalty wealth with BC if it expects the pipelines to go through (in IOW the people of BC would gain financially from the arrangement).

[eyeball]

My objection is the pipelines cost you nothing. The environmental risk is small and can be managed. Your expectation that their should be zero risk is irrational and completely unacceptable in a society where being good neighbors is supposed to mean something.

The environmental risk is so small because Ottawa just reduced the standards by which risk is assessed and even realized.

That not management, that's mismanagement. Of the highest order.

[eyeball]

These pipeline is about generating the jobs and royalty revenue from Canadian resources.

You mean like BC's Canada's fish?

Oh and just for the record, it's Alberta's oil, not Canada's.

Edited April 25, 2012 by eyeball

[cybercoma]

What I can't understand is why Western Canadians are not more pissed about Harper taking control of energy project decisions. Oh sure, it looks good now that their cowboy is in office. What happens when there's an NDP or Liberal Prime Minister that can unilaterally make decisions about energy projects. Can you imagine if Trudeau gave himself that power? Alberta should be pissed about this, but they can't see the forest through the trees.

[TimG]

The environmental risk is so small because Ottawa just reduced the standards by which risk is assessed and even realized.

The environmental risk is small because people have been do the same thing around the world for decades. We understand the problem and the risks and know it can be managed. I was reading about the policies that Alaska has imposed since the Exxon Valdez and they are quite strict and have been successful. Among the various policies ships have to be inspected each time they enter the sound. If they fail they are denied entry - it has happened 18 times in 20 years.

The biggest environmental risk comes from complacency 20 or 30 years from now. So we need to set up systems that are self funding. i.e. a portion of the oil revenue must be directly directly to the government departments that enforce the rules. But it can't be user-pay because that creates conflicts of interest.

[Wilber]

My objection is the pipelines cost you nothing. The environmental risk is small and can be managed. Your expectation that their should be zero risk is irrational and completely unacceptable in a society where being good neighbors is supposed to mean something.

Says you. Being good neighbours doesn't mean ramming something down a neighbour's throat without any regard for their concerns. Being a good neighbour to Alberta seems to be doing it their way or the highway. I hope that isn't so.

Nothing is zero risk but whatever risk there is has to be acceptable to BC. A major spill in Georgia Straight would make the Exxon Valdez look trivial and one on the north coast would be at least as bad. Alberta accepts none of that risk. Zero, Zip.

[fellowtraveller]

Wasn't separation pretty much what Alberta proposed when defending it's oil from being nationalized? Where the hell does Alberta get off thinking it now has some right to force the movement of it's oil across a nation that was otherwise told to eff off?

No, Alberta was defending its constitutional right to manage their natural resources, just as Onatario and Quebec and Manitoba and Nfld do. James Bay, Hibernia blah blah blah.

When did AB ever tell Canada to eff off? You'll know when we do, your welfare cheque won't come.

Oh and just for the record, it's Alberta's oil, not Canada's.

For the truth, its Alberta oil until they sell it, then it belongs to the buyer. In the meantime, the whole country gets royalties, taxes aND jobs. You've heard of jobs, right?

What I can't understand is why Western Canadians are not more pissed about Harper taking control of energy project decisions.

aren't you the guy blubbering about no national energy strategy, or is that your other brother jacee?

Hey, why don't you bite me

Hey, why don't you stop implying that those nasty Yellow Peril is planning on invading?

Your racism is not very subtle.

The difference is that those pipelines served BC's interests. The proposed pipelines do not.

So the Kinder-Morgan pipeline that goes from Edmonton to Vancouver for 50 years serves BCs interests, but the larger proposed Kinder-Morgan pipeline that goes from Edmonton to Vancouver does not? Go ahead, I'm waiting.