Bullets storage rule, shot down

[Guest Derek L]

And Hitler loved dogs. I guess everyone who loves dogs is like Hitler, then.

Did Rock love dogs?

I thought were talking about private firearms ownership?

[bleeding heart]

In the mid 30s, the SA was poorly armed, as was the regular German Military.

And you think the Jews and other targets could have armed themselves in a manner allowing them to fight off the oppressors??????

Just to be clear: it would appear I"m more or less in agreement with you on the gun issue generally.

But the oft-repeated "if everyone were armed there would be no gun violence" argument is profoundly mistaken, in my view. And I think gun-enthusiasts are getting seriously beside their own good points when they make such desperate arguments.

Edited April 9, 2012 by bleeding heart

[bleeding heart]

Did Rock love dogs?

I thought were talking about private firearms ownership?

Argus was responding to a "you might be like a Nazi if" insinuation.

Edited April 9, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Guest Derek L]

And you think the Jews and other targets could have armed themselves in a manner allowing them to fight off the oppressors??????

They clearly could have armed themselves at the same (or better) initial rate as the early Nazi party………The Nazi’s didn’t gain the upper hand over the civilian population until they controlled both the police and army, or IOW, the people with guns.

I’d take a surplus WW I Gewehr 88 in the hands of a private citizen over the Brown Shirted goons of the SA armed with clubs and fists any day.

[bleeding heart]

They clearly could have armed themselves at the same (or better) initial rate as the early Nazi party………The Nazi’s didn’t gain the upper hand over the civilian population until they controlled both the police and army, or IOW, the people with guns.

Surely you're not saying that the Jews were remiss?

And you can't be blaming "leftwing gun policies" in Nazi Germany!

[cybercoma]

Your ignorance of the pogroms and Nazi treatment of Jews more generally is absolutely stunning. Using it to politicize gun rights is nothing short of disgusting. You and that idiot MP from NB Southwest that used MLK's speech to celebrate the end of that gun registry make me sick.

Edited April 9, 2012 by cybercoma

[GostHacked]

That would be all fine, except that there's many different kinds of people in the world. Not every adult is responsible.

That is why we have some sort of vetting stage. You don't give a teenager the keys to the car unless they have proved that they can drive the vehicle safely right?? You are not able to purchase a firearm unless you have got the documents from the government and a safety certificate proving that you have at least taken the course on gun safety.

Just because someone is an adult does not mean they're responsible, not at all. We can look up the news every day and read about people who lose their sense of judgement, shoot their neighbour or their wife, or their whole family.

Then you simply don't give the irresponsible a gun. Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

[Guest Derek L]

Argus was responding to a "you might be like a Nazi if" insinuation.

I didn’t insinuate Argus to being a Nazi (or a Federal Liberal), just that his statement was shared by both the Nazi’s and Liberal Party of Canada……clearly there are similarities and differences between both the LPC and Nazis, but they both desired an unarmed civilian population within their respected countries…….As per history, we can see why this was so for the Nazis, but with the Liberals, we’re quite obviously left to speculate their intent.

[cybercoma]

Then you simply don't give the irresponsible a gun. Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

If you want another way of understanding why your argument makes absolutely no sense, consider this: maybe only "responsible" people should drive cars so there are never any deaths from vehicular accidents.

[bleeding heart]

I didn’t insinuate Argus to being a Nazi (or a Federal Liberal), just that his statement was shared by both the Nazi’s and Liberal Party of Canada……clearly there are similarities and differences between both the LPC and Nazis, but they both desired an unarmed civilian population within their respected countries…….As per history, we can see why this was so for the Nazis, but with the Liberals, we’re quite obviously left to speculate their intent.

OK, I get you, but surely you can see how conservatives have certain things in common with the Nazis, as does everyone if we wish to argue in a decadent-enough manner.

(Just by-the-by, Jonah Goldberg tried to make the "fascist=liberal argument, and actual scholars of fascism turned his "arguments" into the politicized jelly that it is.)

And yes, at least in North America, liberal governments are more often harsher about gun ownership than conservative ones are; and I think liberals are wrong on this score.

But they're not remotely like Nazis (and nor are conservatives like Argus), and the comparison is crazy.

[Guest Derek L]

Surely you're not saying that the Jews were remiss?

In hindsight , the German Empire produced ~5 million bolt action variants of the Gewehr rifle until the close of the First World War…How many Jews were estimated to have been killed by the Nazis?……Also, these rifles didn’t just “disappear” post-war....

And you can't be blaming "leftwing gun policies" in Nazi Germany!

Not just the Nazis, but also the policies of the Weimar Republic, which allowed a gaggle of thugs armed with namely clubs and fists to come to power relying on intimidation and fear tactics emplaced upon their opponents……….If you had a battle rifle in your closet, are you going to be intimidated by a gaggle of goons smashing windows and hurling bigoted slogans?

[GostHacked]

If you want another way of understanding why your argument makes absolutely no sense, consider this: maybe only "responsible" people should drive cars so there are never any deaths from vehicular accidents.

I don't have a problem with that. Irresponsible people on the road are just as lethal as a person with a loaded gun. It's part of the reason we have a graduated licensing system in Ontario. Young drivers have restrictions until they can show that they are responsible to drive full time without supervision.

Yes accidents do happen. And no matter how much safety instruction is given, shit still happens. But if you have a population that is well educated on the proper use of a firearm, you drastically reduce accidents. Same thing on construction sites. If you are a safe worker, good chance you will be going home at the end of the day, every day. If you are not safe, you will injure yourself, lose a limb or die.

Power tools can be dangerous as well. My Opa lost part of his thumb and injured his hand on a table saw, because the guard was not down. Wood flew up, he went to protect his face and ran his hand over the blade.

Don't be an idiot when around items like firearms. It's not a hard concept to understand. My argument makes perfect sense.

[Guest Derek L]

OK, I get you, but surely you can see how conservatives have certain things in common with the Nazis, as does everyone if we wish to argue in a decadent-enough manner.

(Just by-the-by, Jonah Goldberg tried to make the "fascist=liberal argument, and actual scholars of fascism turned his "arguments" into the politicized jelly that it is.)

And yes, at least in North America, liberal governments are more often harsher about gun ownership than conservative ones are; and I think liberals are wrong on this score.

But they're not remotely like Nazis (and nor are conservatives like Argus), and the comparison is crazy.

Ahhhh but that’s the error in framing this debate in the classic left versus right degree, one must first subscribe to the political compass and look at this as Authoritarian versus Libertarian argument…………….Did you know Ghandi was in favour of private firearms ownership? And clearly the disarmament of the Indian peoples by the British Empire set back his goals by decades……..

My sister and brother in law(and hunting partner), both members of the provincial and federal NDP and BCTF (as close to commie as you can get ) are also in favour of private ownership………Many of the members of the clubs that I belong to vote different then I……..It’s not a left versus right argument.

[eyeball]

Irresponsible people on the road are just as lethal as a person with a loaded gun.

That's about to change, dramatically, with the advent of smart-cars.

Notice how other things inexorably and deliberately progress towards greater safety as opposed to away from it.

[cybercoma]

Except power tools and cars serve a purpose other than killing. Guns are a tool for killing and only killing. My point about "responsible" drivers is that this isn't a question about responsibility. Even responsible gun owners can find themselves in situations where they end up using their guns in ways that are irresponsible. The responsible ways to use firearms do not require a person to have them on their person or in their home in an urban setting.

[jefferiah]

Your ignorance of the pogroms and Nazi treatment of Jews more generally is absolutely stunning. Using it to politicize gun rights is nothing short of disgusting. You and that idiot MP from NB Southwest that used MLK's speech to celebrate the end of that gun registry make me sick.

I bet you can't sleep at night thinking about it.

[bleeding heart]

Ahhhh but thats the error in framing this debate in the classic left versus right degree, one must first subscribe to the political compass and look at this as Authoritarian versus Libertarian argument

I see what you mean, but that is itself a flawed argument, as libertarians--with precious few exceptions--tend also towards authoritarianism, albeit with lower taxes.

…

………….Did you know Ghandi was in favour of private firearms ownership? And clearly the disarmament of the Indian peoples by the British Empire set back his goals by decades……..

His goals demanded non-violence, so that's not so clear....

My sister and brother in law(and hunting partner), both members of the provincial and federal NDP and BCTF (as close to commie as you can get ) are also in favour of private ownership

Well, sure; you've read what I've said about agreeing with you on gun ownership...and surely you aren't under the impression that I'm a Conservative???

Edited April 9, 2012 by bleeding heart

[jefferiah]

Except power tools and cars serve a purpose other than killing. Guns are a tool for killing and only killing. My point about "responsible" drivers is that this isn't a question about responsibility. Even responsible gun owners can find themselves in situations where they end up using their guns in ways that are irresponsible. The responsible ways to use firearms do not require a person to have them on their person or in their home in an urban setting.

People can use guns to shoot at targets. Guns can be used for hunting. And if used in self defense, guns are a tool for living. Carrying a gun with you might be extreme, but having them in your household is no big deal. Where I live everyone owns guns. Everyone. Growing up we had several in the house. People never locked them. They hung on the wall. Ammo was kept in the bottom drawer or something like that. I haven't been shot yet. Guns don't jump into peoples hands if they are not locked up. Ammo doesn't jump inside the gun if it isn't hidden away.

Guns don't make people criminals. People have focused on guns and demonized them. It is a societal phobia driven by fearmongering.

Edited April 9, 2012 by jefferiah

[Jack Weber]

In the mid 30s, the SA was poorly armed, as was the regular German Military.

Erm...There was an election that brought the NAZI's to power...It was only once that power was consolidated that the legislative dictatorial side of things came out.

That would include the culture of fear and intmidation that included the "Night of the Long Knives" purges of high ranking SA men...

[Jack Weber]

OK, I get you, but surely you can see how conservatives have certain things in common with the Nazis, as does everyone if we wish to argue in a decadent-enough manner.

(Just by-the-by, Jonah Goldberg tried to make the "fascist=liberal argument, and actual scholars of fascism turned his "arguments" into the politicized jelly that it is.)

And yes, at least in North America, liberal governments are more often harsher about gun ownership than conservative ones are; and I think liberals are wrong on this score.

But they're not remotely like Nazis (and nor are conservatives like Argus), and the comparison is crazy.

Indeed...It was Adolph Hitler's collaboration with reasonably like minded conservatives in Germany that alllowed him to gain power through coalitions until he gained absolute power in 1933...

And then promptly had many of those conservatives arrested or executed...

[Guest Derek L]

I see what you mean, but that is itself a flawed argument, as libertarians--with precious few exceptions--tend also towards authoritarianism, albeit with lower taxes.

…

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in favour of licensing and laws pertaining to safe storage……..With that said, the debate all boils down to if one feels Government (of all stripes) always has the best intentions of the individual at hand and if one should rely upon Government to provide cradle to grave personal security of the individuals………….I’ve yet to see any political party demonstrate this.

His goals demanded non-violence, so that's not so clear....

Sure they called for non violence, but millions of armed Indian citizen supporters in the background, would surely have sped-up the process.

Ghandi: We want Indian independence.

British Government: You’re not ready.

Ghandi: We want Indian independence and though we’d prefer a peaceful transition, we have the ability to force the issue.

British Government: Let’s talk.

Well, sure; you've read what I've said about agreeing with you on gun ownership...and surely you aren't under the impression that I'm a Conservative???

Not at all, and I have nothing against Commie guns either.......I'm picking up ten tomorrow

[Guest Derek L]

Erm...There was an election that brought the NAZI's to power...It was only once that power was consolidated that the legislative dictatorial side of things came out.

That would include the culture of fear and intmidation that included the "Night of the Long Knives" purges of high ranking SA men...

Would you consider the ‘32 election fair and without intimidation of the Nazis opponents?

[Jack Weber]

Would you consider the ‘32 election fair and without intimidation of the Nazis opponents?

I wouldn't consider anything the NAZI's did as being "without intimidation"...

They were the most virulent form of extreme right wing Fascism the globe has ever seen...Hopefully we will never have to revisit any government like that again...

The fact of the ,matter was that it was through that intimidation (and extrajudicial killing) that allowed them to gain power and then consolidate it...

[Guest Derek L]

I wouldn't consider anything the NAZI's did as being "without intimidation"...

They were the most virulent form of extreme right wing Fascism the globe has ever seen...Hopefully we will never have to revisit any government like that again...

The fact of the ,matter was that it was through that intimidation (and extrajudicial killing) that allowed them to gain power and then consolidate it...

And, in a what if world, would you feel the Nazi’s early political “successes” would have played out as historic if the German population had of been armed?

[bleeding heart]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in favour of licensing and laws pertaining to safe storage……..With that said, the debate all boils down to if one feels Government (of all stripes) always has the best intentions of the individual at hand and if one should rely upon Government to provide cradle to grave personal security of the individuals………….I’ve yet to see any political party demonstrate this.

I understand, but my point was about self-described libertarians--most of whom support and defend all sorts of authoritarian, "big-government" measures and initiatives.

So long as guns are cool and taxes are low......

Sure they called for non violence, but millions of armed Indian citizen supporters in the background, would surely have sped-up the process.

Ghandi: We want Indian independence.

British Government: You’re not ready.

Ghandi: We want Indian independence and though we’d prefer a peaceful transition, we have the ability to force the issue.

British Government: Let’s talk.

It may have done (we'll never know), but we were talking about Ghandi himself:

Rebellion through non-violence only--or no rebellion at all.

Not at all, and I have nothing against Commie guns either.......I'm picking up ten tomorrow

Well, obviously I'm not a "commie," any more than you're a "fascist."