Bob Rae vs. Thomas Mulcair

[Smallc]

The problem is where he's making the cutbacks. He has more cabinet ministers than ever, but he's cutting services to the public. Meanwhile, we're all paying just as much taxes as ever, unless you own an oilfield or bank.

Yes, I think that many Conservatives and conservatives are perplexed by that. I am to a degree. I think that most of the junior ministerial positions could be absorbed or become parliamentary secretaries.

Because we all know the only way to control spending is by firing people.

Because we all know that the Harper government's entire plan for spending reduction is to fire people.

[Newfoundlander]

Because we all know the only way to control spending is by firing people.

So you think it's possible to cut 1% from government spending while keeping the civil service the same size? Attrition doesn't count because the NDP also considers that layoffs.

[August1991]

Aha...So...You feel that Mr. Harper's responsibility for the destruction of the Liberal party is only 15 to 20%...

And the selfish internal struggle between two egomanics,which polarized that party and destroyed it from within,is the dominant reason (80 to 85%) for it's demise...

Yet you say that that is'nt how you see it...

Interesting...

That's an interesting viewpoint.

When (if) the history of the death of the federal Liberal Party is written, "the selfish internal stuggle between two egomaniacs" may figure prominently.

----

As to the OP, I started a thread with the title "Harper vs Mulcair". In fact though, this OP states the issue/situation far better.

Edited April 5, 2012 by August1991

[Evening Star]

Here is the problem out side of an election year discussion of where Canada should be heading, producing a shadow budget means you talk about an alternative country. One where Large Corporate tax rates are higher, small business tax is lower, many Capital expenses are different and so on. In that a shadow budget outside of an election year will always be called pie in the sky or it has to accept the other guys argument for where taxes should be and so on. It would be a bad idea because it would be an exercise in predicting something that would happen over the next year that would never be proven to be real.

Reasonable point, actually.

[cybercoma]

The 'government' is a very broad thing. DND is part of the government. I don't see how you can fault the executive for leaving matters of military procurement to the military. Now, we see that there were problems, but the executive isn't to blame here.

Yes you can. Stop fooling yourself. There is a proper procedure for military procurement of this magnitude. We're not talking about procurement officers going to home depot and filling a shopping cart with cases and cases of copper wire and extension cords to meet their year-end budgetary limits, so funding won't be reduced in the following year. I've seen that happen first hand, by the way. The military doesn't just get to decide that they want plane X and the government then pencil whips the documentation. You know damn well Parliament controls the public purse, not just the government. You know there needs to be debate and there needs to be an open tender. None of which happened because the F-35 was supposedly the only jet that meet the SOR. However, the SOR was never made public, as they typically are before purchases are made and parliament discusses them. The SOR was doctored anyway, according to the AG. Moreover, Harper's Government didn't even bother to look at it. They hadn't even seen it when they signed off on the jets. They don't get to act unilaterally this way and you know it. Meanwhile, everyone and their brother knew something was wrong with the program and the government was trying to hide the costs. If they truly didn't know the costs of something they signed off on and they didn't know anything about the SOR, then at the very least the Minister(s) of Defence were wholly incompetent. Harper himself has also stood up in the Commons and lied and mislead the House on this matter.

Now that's if you believe they were incompetent. I don't think so. Harper is way too controlling not to know exactly what is going on at all times. Their effort to hide the details of this was also evident. They were found in contempt for withholding that information from Parliament. So they were not incompetent. They knew exactly what they were doing with our money and they went to great lengths to hide it from our representatives in the House, which means they hid it from all of us. The worst part is that this undermines the idea that Parliament is in control of the public purse. If the Harper Government was just grossly incompetent and had no clue what was going, it shows that they're not even in control of the public purse. Billions of dollars of taxpayers dollars were nearly spent without their awareness of what was going on. That is about as dire of an issue as it gets and shows that the Conservatives aren't even remotely close to being the best fiscal managers this country could have. In fact, it shows that they are potentially the worst we have ever had in the history of this great nation.

[Smallc]

at the very least the Minister(s) of Defence were wholly incompetent.

Now that's if you believe they were incompetent.

And yet, the AG didn't even suggest political involvement. You're so busy looking for any evidence that the Conservatives are either stupid or evil, that you can't find anything else.

[cybercoma]

And yet, the AG didn't even suggest political involvement. You're so busy looking for any evidence that the Conservatives are either stupid or evil, that you can't find anything else.

If I pissed on your leg and told you it was raining, would you believe me? Christ, man. Put your critical thinking cap on for two seconds.

[Smallc]

If I pissed on your leg and told you it was raining, would you believe me? Christ, man. Put your critical thinking cap on for two seconds.

I'm not going to make accusations that I can't prove. According to the Auditor General, the government trusted DND (why shouldn't they) and they got burned, just like everyone else. You're on a Conservative witch hunt, and have been for months.

[cybercoma]

I'm not going to make accusations that I can't prove. According to the Auditor General, the government trusted DND (why shouldn't they) and they got burned, just like everyone else. You're on a Conservative witch hunt, and have been for months.

You continue to ignore the fact that they did not follow the proper procedures for this contract.

[Topaz]

And yet, the AG didn't even suggest political involvement. You're so busy looking for any evidence that the Conservatives are either stupid or evil, that you can't find anything else.

As it was reported on the news the AG never points to blame, they just report the findings or what went wrong. We definitely need a committee hearing and ask all those bureaucrats if they withheld info to the ministers. Agree?

[Smallc]

As it was reported on the news the AG never points to blame,

They sure seemed to point blame here....squarely at top DND officials and bureaucrats.

[Smallc]

You continue to ignore the fact that they did not follow the proper procedures for this contract.

They haven't followed it for a whole range of DND contracts, and some have turned out, and some haven't. The C-130j and the C-17 seem to have worked out. We'll see if the Chinook did...obviously this didn't.

DND was given control of this file. It was up to them what they did with it.

[cybercoma]

They haven't followed it for a whole range of DND contracts, and some have turned out, and some haven't. The C-130j and the C-17 seem to have worked out. We'll see if the Chinook did...obviously this didn't.

DND was given control of this file. It was up to them what they did with it.

Parliament can't abrogate their responsibility to control the public purse. Why are you bending over backwards to defend this? Even if some panned out, not following the procedures is what created the problem because it eliminated the transparency and acocuntability (you know, those things Harper promised he would bring to Ottawa) in the process.

Also you keep saying that the blame lies squarely with "top bureaucrats," as though this somehow indemnifies the cabinet and Harper. I find it very hard to believe that you think these "top bureaucrats" are completely isolated from the cabinet ministers responsible for their departments and for something as huge as the F-35s Stephen Harper himself. If that were the case, the Harper Government should have stood up in the House when the Opposition asked them questions and said point blank, "We haven't the slightest clue how much these things are going to cost because we left it entirely up to the unelected bureaucrats in the DND to handle. We handed them the taxpayers' chequebook, signed all the cheques, and told them to 'go nuts'."

Edited April 5, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

If this isn't gross fiscal incompetence, then nothing is. We might as well just give the banking, oil, and military industries a key to the vault where we keep the taxpayers money and just say, "take what you need."

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Is it time for a tax revolt yet? I am up for it if it happens.

[Smallc]

Parliament can't abrogate their responsibility to control the public purse.

Parliament itself doesn't control every part of every process. Also, the shipbuilding program didn't follow standard procedure either. It turned out quite well, better than the normal procedure in fact. The government has been frustrated by the lack of progress on many military procurements that follow the normal process. Because of that, they're been trying new things. In this case, it didn't work out. In others, it did.

Also you keep saying that the blame lies squarely with "top bureaucrats," as though this somehow indemnifies the cabinet and Harper. I find it very hard to believe that you think these "top bureaucrats" are completely isolated from the cabinet ministers

The AG report clearly said that Parliament was misled by DND. That doesn't support your conclusions.

[Smallc]

Is it time for a tax revolt yet? I am up for it if it happens.

You go first.

[eyeball]

That's how he destroyed the liberal government. He saw a rift emerging between Chretien & Martin and he slowly and quietly worked on it... and then bam!

Notice the rift between Harper and McKay that Mulcair is targeting. Rae seems to be aiming to high and missing.

[Vendetta]

smallc you used to seem a lot less blindly partisan, what happened? I can't believe that you would put aside your logical brain and let the CPC off the hook for this so easily. There are plenty on this board that I fully expect that from, but I thought better of you. This sleaze can not be defended. They lied to the Canadian people in parliament and in an election campaign. That is crystal clear to anyone who takes off their blue goggles and looks at the situation objectively.

[punked]

They sure seemed to point blame here....squarely at top DND officials and bureaucrats.

I am having trouble figuring out how "THE GOVERNMENT KNEW BEFORE THE ELECTION THE COST OF THE PLANES" laying the blame anywhere but with the government.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/04/05/federal-cabinet-knew-f-35s-true-25-billion-cost-before-election-auditor-general/

[Smallc]

smallc you used to seem a lot less blindly partisan, what happened? I can't believe that you would put aside your logical brain and let the CPC off the hook for this so easily. There are plenty on this board that I fully expect that from, but I thought better of you. This sleaze can not be defended. They lied to the Canadian people in parliament and in an election campaign. That is crystal clear to anyone who takes off their blue goggles and looks at the situation objectively.

There's no sleaze here. I just don't really find this to be a big deal when it comes to what the Harper government did. In another thread, I just finished defending Bob Rae. In another thread, I said that the NDP made the only possible choice with Mulcair. Why, when I defend something that you don't like, am I suddenly wearing blue goggles?

As soon as the report came out, the government acted. We'll see where things go from here.

[cybercoma]

I just don't really find this to be a big deal

Not a big deal? They were the first government in the history of Canada to be found in contempt of parliament. That's a big deal. Now we find out from the AG tha they knew the costs all along.

Not a big deal. It doesn't get bigger than this.

[Smallc]

Not a big deal? They were the first government in the history of Canada to be found in contempt of parliament. That's a big deal. Now we find out from the AG tha they knew the costs all along.

Not a big deal. It doesn't get bigger than this.

Way to blow things out of proportion. it gets far bigger than this. This is nothing. A partisan vote finding the government in contempt obviously didn't bother people either. You're not seeing this clearly.

[mentalfloss]

I'm kind of frightened by Mulcair's charisma.

He could be the next Hitler.